• Nevada restaurant owners on Obamacare: ‘We can't pay for this'
    150 replies, posted
[QUOTE=bohb;38619686]Good job at comparing averages in a disproportionate number of people. Greece has around 10 million people, the US has over 300 million. And you don't need to be wealthy here to be happy.[/QUOTE] It's easier to be happy when you have a higher standard of living, better access to healthcare and better access to education and therefore are more able to move up the economic ladder. European countries are far better at providing those to a wider range of people than the US. Want a fairer comparison? The total population of the EU is roughly 500 million - it's adjusted HDI is ranked 18-19 - better than the US, and that's including eastern Europe, which is sometimes seen to be less developed than western Europe or the US
I'm OK with people hating Obamacare or nationalised health, but as soon as people start calling Europe 'Neo-liberal', and Obama a socialist I want to strangle the dumb out of people. Obama is right-wing. Most leaders in Europe are right-wing/centre-right/centre with mixed economies and ideas supported by socialists. Nowhere near a 'liberal paradise' or socialist heaven. End of argument.
[quote]ObamaCare essentially [b]increases the cost of production[/b], you can't really apply it like a tax[/quote] That's the exact effect of every tax (really confused why you didn't realize this), it doesn't change the consequence of dead weight loss in the slightest. I'm not even trying to necessarily argue against ObamaCare here. By the way .. ObamaCare [i]is[/i] a tax, that's the only reason it made it through the Supreme Court in the first place.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38619810]ObamaCare essentially increases the cost of production, you can't really apply it like a tax[/QUOTE] It's an increase in the minimum wage. You can apply it like a tax or like an increase in cost, the effect is the same. The total revenue of the business falls, and thus the number of employees does as well. It was known even before the bill was passed that employment would decrease.
What's the actual name of the "Obamacare" bill that was heavily modified since it was rejected by the house?
[QUOTE=Strider*;38619949]That's the exact effect of every tax (really confused why you didn't realize this), it doesn't change the consequence of dead weight loss in the slightest. I'm not even trying to necessarily argue against ObamaCare here. By the way .. ObamaCare [I]is[/I] a tax, that's the only reason it made it through the Supreme Court in the first place.[/QUOTE] oh, my point with the first graph was that now that the price was above the equilibrium point, so some businesses would have to leave the market in order for the markets to return to equilibrium your graph shows it better, thanks.
Oh god bohb's post about the EU failing and how healthcare from the government will destroy america is giving me cancer. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] Which i cant have treated thanks to how unregulated private healthcare is.
[QUOTE=bohb;38619338]Haha, you're joking right? You have Spain, Greece and [B]Iceland [/B]which have already collapsed. In the case of Greece, several times already. Stop pretending like the EU is any better off.[/QUOTE] Do you know what caused Iceland to go from a financial powerhouse to the largest collapse in economic history? [B]They privatized the banks. [/B] And are now steadily recovering after having raised taxes, cut spending, and nationalized the banks, and has become a success story for the post-2008 economic crisis.
[QUOTE=bohb;38618037]Ah yes, the idiotic liberal point of view that never works. Hey, we're short on money, let's just raise prices/taxes and it will totally fix the problem, totally. This is why liberals don't run businesses, because they forget the primary purpose of a business; Which is to make money. It's not to be nice or to be a "livelihood" or other nonsense. And since you clearly didn't read the article, I'll repeat "restaurants operate on razor thin margins". Increasing menu prices, or cheapening/reducing quantity of food is not an option and should only be considered as a last resort. [b]I have a friend who owned and operated a restaurant for over 30 years, and I've seen the inner workings more than enough to know what will cause a restaurant to thrive or fail.[/b] This is basically what's going to start happening. Employers are just going to hire tons of employees and give them crap hours so they don't have to pay insurance premiums. So instead of employees getting health benefits, they're forced to work several jobs just to get by.[/QUOTE] Cool. Anecdotal evidence. You know that shit doesn't hold up in real-life, right? [QUOTE=Foda;38618120]This guy runs a pizza place that has more than 50 [B]full-time [/B]employes and he can't pay healthcare costs? what the fuck kind of pizza place is this?! [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] read the law. 50 full-time employees. 50 people who work more than 30hrs a week.[/QUOTE] The Pizza business has the lowest failing rate of virtually all businesses. It costs nothing to make the pizza and they can charge it for $10-$20 and still make a huge profit. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=bohb;38618386]Because some law written by a blithering idiots that have never in their life run a successful business themselves, automatically deems that a business with 50 employees has the financial means to pay tens of thousands dollars in overhead in medical coverage, makes total sense. They also seem to have forgotten that "full time employment" has been defined for the last 50+ years as 40 hour work weeks, not 30. Which is rather ironic because liberals/socialists were the ones to define the standard 40 hour week in the first place. I think you're a tad confused here. The law doesn't force the employer to give every employee 30 hours a week, the employer can schedule an employee however they want, and that's how employers are going to get around the law. If the employer has over 50 employees, they're just going to hire more employees and limit the number of hours that each employee can work to less than 30. They'll probably go further down to between 20-25 hours to give some headroom so the employee will never get to 30 hours. With more employees, they can cover the lost hours that the existing employees will no longer be able to work.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bohb;38618704]Yes, glad you asked. That business that runs the country, the government. The government (on a national level) is primarily run by the far left, and we can all see what a great job they're doing. Getting the nation farther into debt by endlessly spending money, and putting it into even more debt by crippling its sources of revenue (taxes) by further levying unsustainable taxes on the people that pay them.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bohb;38618769]You sure have a lot of faith in that law, but it's sadly misplaced. At the end of the day, the business is going to do whatever it must to survive. And if this means cutting full time employees to less than 30 hours a week, even at the cost of productivity, it will. As I said before, businesses don't exist for employee benefits, they exist to make money. No, this is why the government needs to piss off. Government healthcare isn't free, you pay for it in far higher taxation.[/QUOTE] Do you realize how crazy you sound right now, right? I mean, holy shit, this isn't even conservative, this is just plain nuts. I really didn't think much of Glader, just some right-winged fella', but this guy makes [i]him[/i] look liberal. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Olas;38619762]I love how these threads always bring out Facepunch's resident "economists."[/QUOTE] Maybe because some of us are actual economists or are studying to become one? I know I am. You really think you could judge a single person who's posted in this thread without even knowing their name?
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;38619985]What's the actual name of the "Obamacare" bill that was heavily modified since it was rejected by the house?[/QUOTE] The Affordable Care Act
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38617087]so some people will be forced out of the business... too bad [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Economics_Perfect_competition.svg/560px-Economics_Perfect_competition.svg.png[/IMG] :words: it's how markets work[/QUOTE] What do you mean it's how markets work? This is the government intervening in the market and forcing a new cost upon companies. The graph isn't even relevant here. And your response to thousands of people losing their jobs as a result is just "too bad"?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;38620983]Maybe because some of us are actual economists or are studying to become one? I know I am. You really think you could judge a single person who's posted in this thread without even knowing their name?[/QUOTE] Woah there, I was just poking fun. Not sure why you took it so personal.
[QUOTE=Glaber;38619754]Anybody can edit wikipedia to have it say anything. if you want a reliable source, use anything other than wikipedia Heck, why didn't you just use Wikipedia's sources?[/QUOTE] okay so how about the 1000s of people living in parents basement, that have a fp_ticker.php except for wikipedia edits
[QUOTE=bohb;38619686]Good job at comparing averages in a disproportionate number of people. Greece has around 10 million people, the US has over 300 million. And you don't need to be wealthy here to be happy.[/QUOTE] yeah, you don't have to be wealthy to be happy in america, just to survive
[QUOTE=Noble;38621845] And your response to thousands of people losing their jobs as a result is just "too bad"?[/QUOTE] I was a tad confused by his facetiousness too. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] [img]http://puu.sh/1vadV[/img] Okay you two.. I'd just love to hear all about your expertise in economics because clearly I've got it all wrong!
[QUOTE=bohb;38618704] The government (on a national level) is primarily run by the far left, and we can all see what a great job they're doing.[/QUOTE] CONFIRMED: bohb doesn't know what left and right wing mean.
[QUOTE=Morcam;38619956]It's an increase in the minimum wage. You can apply it like a tax or like an increase in cost, the effect is the same. The total revenue of the business falls, and thus the number of employees does as well. It was known even before the bill was passed that employment would decrease.[/QUOTE] -raises hand- while I hope not to be targeted by either side here, I would like to ask... why does this make the whole "obamacare" thing sound like "We're doing this for you! The working class! Although we know full well its going to get a number of you [I]fired.[/I]"
Greed. Goddamn greed makes these people insensitive of of the workers lives. They care more about the tidyness of their bills and coins over the condition of their workers. Money plays too big a role in this earth.
It's people like bohb that make it really, really annoying not to be a democrat here. Also damn I didn't know we had so many renegade economists here, why don't you guys get off facepunch and save the world market already?
[QUOTE=spiritlol;38623516]It's people like bohb that make it really, really annoying not to be a democrat here. [/QUOTE] what does this even mean? [editline]28th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=bohb;38618704]Yes, glad you asked. That business that runs the country, the government. The government (on a national level) is primarily run by the far left, and we can all see what a great job they're doing. Getting the nation farther into debt by endlessly spending money, and putting it into even more debt by crippling its sources of revenue (taxes) by further levying unsustainable taxes on the people that pay them.[/QUOTE] Government isn't a business, and the US government sure as shit isn't anything near the left side of the spectrum. It's definitely right leaning at the moment, center-right at best, with heavy corporate influence.
[QUOTE=Strider*;38622401]I was a tad confused by his facetiousness too. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] [img]http://puu.sh/1vadV[/img] Okay you two.. I'd just love to hear all about your expertise in economics because clearly I've got it all wrong![/QUOTE] I disagree with you and your arguments fail to suffice for me. You also take it like your opinions are correct and no one else could be way too fucking seriously. [editline]28th November 2012[/editline] I don't pretend to know what's really going on, and am honestly fairly divided on economics, and I really, really fail to see how anyone can tout any one philosophy or idea as the best answer to any problem. Which, in a lot of ways, you and Noble do constantly. So do a lot of leftists here and I disagree with them as well
[QUOTE=Hobo4President;38623226]CONFIRMED: bohb doesn't know what left and right wing mean.[/QUOTE] From my experience on right wing websites, I'd say many right wingers have a warped view of the political spectrum, and see it as something like this: Far Left - Democrats (Also liberals, progressives, communists, socialists, nazis, and everything else they don't like) Left - Also Democrats / RINOs Center - Moderate Republicans Right - Republicans / Conservatives Far Right - Stricter Conservatives
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38624005]what does this even mean?[/QUOTE] I think he's trying to say that bohb is making all conservatives look dumb, which imho is no easy task.
[QUOTE=bohb;38618704] The government (on a national level) is primarily run by the far left[/QUOTE] Democrats are incompetent centrists and Republicans are batshit insane right-wingers. That's the main reason the country is sinking in debt. The nation's economy would actually prosper if it were run by the far-left.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;38620983]The Pizza business has the lowest failing rate of virtually all businesses.[/quote] Got a source for this? I did some searching and all I could find was the polar opposite of what you're saying [quote]Statistics show that between 90 and 95 percent of all new pizza shops fail in the first year with 90 percent failing in the second year[/quote] [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vfxreABYeawC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=failure+rate+of+pizzerias&source=bl&ots=qHOCq9t3yg&sig=WVtu3TmlayQq5pO34GmHjSBAvkQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VQW2UKbIDeLl0gGEkICQCg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg[/url] [quote]It costs nothing to make the pizza and they can charge it for $10-$20 and still make a huge profit.[/quote] What? It doesn't "cost nothing". What about the costs of cheese and flour? The prices of those commodities change constantly and directly affect a pizzeria owner's bottom line. What about money for renting the building? Equipment like ovens and cash registers? Maintenance costs? Utilities? Employees? It seems like you're ignoring every single cost of running a business and assuming someone can just throw some cheese, sauce, and dough together in an oven and have a fairly easy ride to success. [quote]Do you realize how crazy you sound right now, right? I mean, holy shit, this isn't even conservative, this is just plain nuts. I really didn't think much of Glader, just some right-winged fella', but this guy makes [i]him[/i] look liberal.[/quote] What's your response to his arguments he made there? They're perfectly good concerns about the new law, and you're evading them with some irrelevant ad-hominem. If it's going to cost a business more money to have people work over 30 hours a week, then they will, wherever possible, cut hours below 30 a week to save money. Do you disagree with this statement?
[QUOTE=bohb;38618704]Yes, glad you asked. That business that runs the country, the government. [B]The government (on a national level) is primarily run by the far left[/B], and we can all see what a great job they're doing. Getting the nation farther into debt by endlessly spending money, and putting it into even more debt by crippling its sources of revenue (taxes) by further levying unsustainable taxes on the people that pay them.[/QUOTE]I generally don't feel the need to comment on your verbal diarrhoea, but this amused me. You couldn't spot an actual far-lefter even if they shoved a hammer and sickle up your arse.
[QUOTE=Strider*;38619711]"The causes of the recession are so clear cut, it was the banks!" Keep it simple computer chair intellectuals. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] Do you think banks are going to engage in subprime mortgage lending again any time soon? Governments always regulate [b]after[/b] the fact, almost never before.[/QUOTE] That's kinda the point, however the sup prime mortgages could've been avoided if we hadn't let investment banking and commercial banking meld together.
[QUOTE=bohb;38619147] Wait, then why are a half dozen members of the EU about to default? riots? And Europeans constantly bitching about high taxes and not being able to afford anything. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bohb;38619147] Nice generalization there. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Noble;38621845]What do you mean it's how markets work? This is the government intervening in the market and forcing a new cost upon companies. The graph isn't even relevant here. And your response to thousands of people losing their jobs as a result is just "too bad"?[/QUOTE] I like how you're conveniently ignoring all the job creation potential and benefit that might come out of this. I explained how the graph is relevant a couple posts up.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;38624471]From my experience on right wing websites, I'd say many right wingers have a warped view of the political spectrum, and see it as something like this: Far Left - Democrats (Also liberals, progressives, communists, socialists, nazis, and everything else they don't like) Left - Also Democrats / RINOs Center - Moderate Republicans Right - Republicans / Conservatives Far Right - Stricter Conservatives[/QUOTE] If the Democrats are far left then fitting most european countries on would require a huge stretchy left arm to fit them on. God knows what goes through the mind of Right wingers, how on Earth did half of them get into politics at all?
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