Theresa May signs letter that will trigger Brexit tomorrow
149 replies, posted
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52029006]Fuck me I just can't wait for us to make our big deal with Trump. The guy who thinks we wire tapped him and cares for nothing but his own gain is certainly going to be good to us. Fucking hell Cameron I hope you regret this for the rest of your life.[/QUOTE]
"The EU was going to force us into TTIP"
"Trump is perfectly willing to give us a trade agreement"
:hammered:
[IMG]https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17636944_1158110234315805_1294892437746554211_o.jpg?oh=6d22c1749229342654b94ac129900fc1&oe=5996BDEB[/IMG]
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Alt/Gimmick" - Bengley))[/highlight]
image is wrong, the uk should be stabbing itself
sorry you guys have to suffer like this, i still hope for the best.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52028945]england has dominated for a long time
one of the big failures of the union is the fact that the british nations failed to create a unified "british" nations
the closest we got to a "british" nation is pretty much just an outgrowth of the english nation[/QUOTE]
How has England 'dominated'?
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52028985]It was a divisive vote because remain did a bad job cause of complacency and incompetence, and leave lied out their asses.
So with this decision we're saying "hey, if you can emotionally mnanipulate enough people, you get to decide the future of our nation!"
Also btw I did a [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1524335&p=50593219&viewfull=1#post50593219"]big as shit post[/URL] on why the experts think its gonna go tits up, but the UK don't need experts anymore, as we all know.[/QUOTE]
We're not saying with this decision to leave that we're being manipulated emotionally. We're leaving because we had a smidge of a vote in favour of leaving the EU and that's the reason we're so divisive, not because we're sticking firecrackers down our trousers or drinking acid in celebration of experts being ignored. In fact the opposite, we need all the experts the UK and the EU can provide to come up with a new trade deal that benefits us both. I am far from the thought that the UK will go tits up.
[QUOTE=Chopstick;52029313]We're not saying with this decision to leave that we're being manipulated emotionally. We're leaving because we had a smidge of a vote in favour of leaving the EU and that's the reason we're so divisive, not because we're sticking firecrackers down our trousers or drinking acid in celebration of experts being ignored. In fact the opposite, we need all the experts the UK and the EU can provide to come up with a new trade deal that benefits us both. I am far from the thought that the UK will go tits up.[/QUOTE]
You're not gonna get a trade deal with us that benefits you more than it did while you were in the EU by definition. You can probably save the ship before it sinks but from all standpoints, you're on a worse position to negotiate.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52028985]
Also btw I did a [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1524335&p=50593219&viewfull=1#post50593219"]big as shit post[/URL] on why the experts think its gonna go tits up, but the UK don't need experts anymore, as we all know.[/QUOTE]
It's a good post on it's own but the fact that no one replied to it substantively is the cherry on top.
[QUOTE=David29;52029177]How has England 'dominated'?[/QUOTE]
mostly by the fact its language dominates, as does the culture, their population, economy, political, and military power in addition to how for the longest time everything was pretty much centralised on london
england historically formed the union by pretty much conquering or inheriting the rest of the isles as well - wales and ireland were conquered, while scotland was inherited (and later the scottish aristocracy sold it out to england in return for a bailout)
british rule was never quite accepted, which is why the administration has been devolved and independence movements/regional languages remained a thing. ireland winning their independence and then the SNP winning control of Scotland is evidence enough that the british experiment failed
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52031091]mostly by the fact its language dominates, as does the culture, their population, economy, political, and military power in addition to how for the longest time everything was pretty much centralised on london
england historically formed the union by pretty much conquering or inheriting the rest of the isles as well - wales and ireland were conquered, while scotland was inherited (and later the scottish aristocracy sold it out to england in return for a bailout)
british rule was never quite accepted, which is why the administration has been devolved and independence movements/regional languages remained a thing. ireland winning their independence and then the SNP winning control of Scotland is evidence enough that the british experiment failed[/QUOTE]
Historically, perhaps (but even then it is worth remembering that the Scottish Monarchy inherited the English Throne at one point). However, I'm talking about the present day.
[QUOTE=David29;52031282]Historically, perhaps (but even then it is worth remembering that the Scottish Monarchy inherited the English Throne at one point). However, I'm talking about the present day.[/QUOTE]
in the present day it's been decentralizing steadily for ages
up until the mid 20th century most of the heavy industry in Scotland, NI, and Wales was going strong and helping to support the rest of the country and the economy was quite heavily tied in
since the collapse of this heavy industry and thatcher, a lot of areas (particularly NI) haven't really recovered or improved much past the 70s with the sole exceptions being precisely when they were devolved powers from Westminster
now with the whole brexit thing (which is going to cause disruption and economic issues even in best case scenario) and the fact that some of these places have had working devolved administrations for an entire generation now, people are starting to wonder what exactly they get out of the union when there's been no real benefit to a lot of people (particularly the unemployed and poor who have seen little to no improvement) since the 1980s or even earlier
another way to put it is that the failure to make a true british identity back then is reaping the results now (without an empire, there's no real reason for the union to continue any longer)
brexit is happening for many of the same reasons that independence/regionalism is going. if brexit can happen, so can Scottish independence if the people get sick enough
[QUOTE=Dracon;52027730]Representative Democracy is also a failure. Case in point: The USA[/QUOTE]
I know this is a late reply, but the US isn't a true representative democracy, it's a democratic republic.
In other words, it's a collection of decentralized states where each state elects representatives in a unified federal government, not a form of government that elects representatives based on a spread of demographics throughout the overall population. In that sense, the United States is more like a collection of states like the EU rather than a single country.
That's partially why Trump got elected, because each state counts the same regardless of population, so a single person's vote in Wyomming counts the same as six people in Florida.
That's not to mention issues like Gerrymandering (where partisan officials get to set up redistricting for each electorate), which makes things even less representative.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52031302]in the present day it's been decentralizing steadily for ages
up until the mid 20th century most of the heavy industry in Scotland, NI, and Wales was going strong and helping to support the rest of the country and the economy was quite heavily tied in
since the collapse of this heavy industry and thatcher, a lot of areas (particularly NI) haven't really recovered or improved much past the 70s with the sole exceptions being precisely when they were devolved powers from Westminster
now with the whole brexit thing (which is going to cause disruption and economic issues even in best case scenario) and the fact that some of these places have had working devolved administrations for an entire generation now, people are starting to wonder what exactly they get out of the union when there's been no real benefit to a lot of people (particularly the unemployed and poor who have seen little to no improvement) since the 1980s or even earlier
another way to put it is that the failure to make a true british identity back then is reaping the results now (without an empire, there's no real reason for the union to continue any longer)
brexit is happening for many of the same reasons that independence/regionalism is going. if brexit can happen, so can Scottish independence if the people get sick enough[/QUOTE]
Exactly. That reinforces my original point - that the anti-English rhetoric about us 'dominating' the country is wrong.
[QUOTE=David29;52031432]Exactly. That reinforces my original point - that the anti-English rhetoric about us 'dominating' the country is wrong.[/QUOTE]
the problem now is that as a consequence of this whole devolution thing and ending the "English domination" it's pretty much made the union completely useless
there's no real reason for Britain to remain together anymore except to have the tories continue getting rid of things that scots and the irish don't like (labour is extinct now and there exists no real opposition party) - at which point they're going to inevitably break off
the biggest problem is not so much English domination - but the fact that Westminster has done pretty much nothing for us in the past 40 years (besides giving us more power to fix our own problems - which is ultimately going to end in independence)
[QUOTE]I know this is a late reply, but the US isn't a true representative democracy, it's a democratic republic.
[/QUOTE]
Representative democracy is redundant. And republic as a concept isn't opposite to democracy at all. So this sentence right here makes no sense.
[QUOTE]In other words, it's a collection of decentralized states where each state elects representatives in a unified federal government, not a form of government that elects representatives based on a spread of demographics throughout the overall population. In that sense, the United States is more like a collection of states like the EU rather than a single country.
[/QUOTE]
Now you're mixing how power is legitimized (democracy) with how power is organized in actual space (federalism). It seems you also have a poor understanding of how the US works. US citizens elect the state bodies that govern them at a local level, the representatives that legiferate for them at the federal level, and the head of the executive branch, making the USA a [B][I]federal presidential democracy[/I][/B].
The EU is [B]not[/B] a federation, a confederation or anything of the sort. The EU is its own thing and fills its own category since there's nothing like it and there never was anything like it before either.
[QUOTE]That's partially why Trump got elected, because each state counts the same regardless of population, so a single person's vote in Wyomming counts the same as six people in Florida. [/QUOTE]
States don't count the same in the US. The system is eschewed heavily in "favour" of the smaller states (population wise) though.
[QUOTE]That's not to mention issues like Gerrymandering (where partisan officials get to set up redistricting for each electorate), which makes things even less representative.[/QUOTE]
This is correct, but don't conflate flaws in the democracy process with the idea that the US isn't a democracy. Every country has democratic flaws, some more than others. While the US is a flawed democracy, it's still a democracy.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52027660]That's DIRECT democracy. We've kind ahad representative democracy for a few millenia by now.
Which basically means we vote for people who aren't gonna fuck over the ENTIRE country just because half of the country are stupid.[/QUOTE]
We didnt even have representative democracy for more than 250 years.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52031503]the problem now is that as a consequence of this whole devolution thing and ending the "English domination" it's pretty much made the union completely useless
there's no real reason for Britain to remain together anymore except to have the tories continue getting rid of things that scots and the irish don't like (labour is extinct now and there exists no real opposition party) - at which point they're going to inevitably break off
the biggest problem is not so much English domination - but the fact that Westminster has done pretty much nothing for us in the past 40 years (besides giving us more power to fix our own problems - which is ultimately going to end in independence)[/QUOTE]
But couldn't the same arguments be applied to the EU? What reason is there for it to exist if there is no reason for the UK to exist?
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52031690]We didnt even have representative democracy for more than 250 years.[/QUOTE]
actually yeah thats right lmao my bad
[QUOTE=_Axel;52029395]You're not gonna get a trade deal with us that benefits you more than it did while you were in the EU by definition. You can probably save the ship before it sinks but from all standpoints, you're on a worse position to negotiate.[/QUOTE]
I think what the UK is looking for is not a trade deal that's unfair, but one that works very similar to how it did before with more emphasis on allowing us to decide the land borders/immigration. There's no question that it puts us in a bad negotiating position whilst we're out, however once we have the trade deal set up there's nothing stopping us from setting up other trade deals after that fact to benefit us, most being a lot easier to trade with as it won't have to be agreed upon by ALL of the EU countries first.
Still don't believe we're on a sinking ship. The closest to sinking we have is sea level rises flooding us entirely and at that point we wouldn't have an economy to worry about, just another refugee crisis for the EU to cope with but I'm sure your ship can carry a few more or perhaps the EU can have some trust in the UK to keep chugging along, after all we're a founding country for the EU aren't we? So I still have some trust that we're going to be OK but as Donald Tusk mentioned a lot of it will be damage control.
[QUOTE=David29;52031719]But couldn't the same arguments be applied to the EU? What reason is there for it to exist if there is no reason for the UK to exist?[/QUOTE]
but we're talking about the UK - the UK has its own problems independent of the EU
many of these problems are hinting very strongly at the dissolution of the country in the near future
[QUOTE=Chopstick;52032903]I think what the UK is looking for is not a trade deal that's unfair, but one that works very similar to how it did before with more emphasis on allowing us to decide the land borders/immigration. There's no question that it puts us in a bad negotiating position whilst we're out, however once we have the trade deal set up there's nothing stopping us from setting up other trade deals after that fact to benefit us, most being a lot easier to trade with as it won't have to be agreed upon by ALL of the EU countries first.[/QUOTE]
I get the argument that being out of the EU gives more leeway when it comes to making trade deals with non-EU countries. It's a double-edged​ sword thought, because you also have less weight when negotiating with non-EU parties. The prospect of not being able to trade with the entirety of the EU is much more dreadful to a country aspiring to mutually beneficial deals than if that prospect is limited to a single country. This is one of the strengths of the EU as a trading bloc.
[editline]30th March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Chopstick;52032903]Or perhaps the EU can have some trust in the UK to keep chugging along, after all we're a founding country for the EU aren't we?[/QUOTE]
Actually, no, which is the most ironic part of this whole nonsense.
The six founding countries of the EU are Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The UK voluntarily joined in 1972.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52032956]but we're talking about the UK - the UK has its own problems independent of the EU
many of these problems are hinting very strongly at the dissolution of the country in the near future[/QUOTE]
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, you cannot dismiss that the UK has just as much reason to exist in principle as the EU.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52033123]I get the argument that being out of the EU gives more leeway when it comes to making trade deals with non-EU countries. It's a double-edged​sword thought, because you also have less weight when negotiating with non-EU parties. The prospect of not being able to trade with the entirety of the EU is much more dreadful to a country aspiring to mutually beneficial deals than if that prospect is limited to a single country. This is one of the strengths of the EU as a trading bloc.
[editline]30th March 2017[/editline]
Actually, no, which is the most ironic part of this whole nonsense.
The six founding countries of the EU are Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The UK voluntarily joined in 1972.[/QUOTE]
That's even more enlightening, good to know. With some luck then, we've been in, done our good and we're out before it really got too big for it's own shoes.
We're keeping quite a lot of laws from when we're leaving the EU so I figured we were somehow the founding country which is even funnier.
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;52024986]hope ya'll ready to see the NHS shrink and see social services axed "to fund Brexit"
infact, prepare to see a lot of unpopular shit slide through the Commons "for Brexit" because it looks like the Tories are going to face no opposition for the next 3 years.[/QUOTE]
Brexit is to the Britain as the dumb fucking wall is to America. It doesn't need to happen and it's going to economically ruin things that do need to happen.
-snip- oh my god I fucked up why did I forget I was the last to post now it's awkward oh fuck
[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;52031671']Representative democracy is redundant. And republic as a concept[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, I should have explained better. A representative democracy is a type of electoral and governmental system, as opposed to direct democracy ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy[/url]). The defining characteristic of a representative democracy is having elected officials serve the function of representing segments of the wider population. Every major western government is a representative democracy but a government system can be seen more or less representative based on how fairly it is perceived to be representing the wishes of the electorate. For example, a electoral system with only two potential elected officials for the population to vote between may be seen as less representative than a system with [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting_system]preferential voting[/url] because of issues such as the spoiler effect (a phenomenon where individual citizens are forced to vote for a candidate they dislike in order to keep another they dislike even more from getting into power, or the "vote for the lesser evil" problem- this is less preferable to a system with multi-stage preferential voting where a citizen can freely vote for whichever candidate they prefer and then list their preferences in order).
A Democratic Republic, in this context, is a version of a representative democracy where a government is elected by a set of semi-autonomous states rather than the entire population in aggregate, or, in other words, where each state counts as one vote rather than every citizen. The US electoral system is synonymous to a Democratic Republic, the point I was making in my post is that the EU is [b]analogous[/b] to the difference between the US electoral system and other western governments- in the sense that the US version of a democracy is not one where each citizen is represented but rather one where each state elects representatives in an overall unified federal government, which is akin to how the EU functions with its member states.
I know that the US electoral system does not literally have each state count as one vote, I was simplifying for the sake of brevity.
I don't think you guys understand how tiny NI,Wales and Scotland are, population wise, in comparison to England. Of course England is going to dominate the British isles, it outnumbers everything else combined by 5:1.
Stop considering it England's fault. More remain votes came from england than all the other regions combined.
As a person who's lived most of his life in England, it's bollocks. Most people from my circles are strong remainers (That said I'm young, in university, and in a university town, and the demographics are strong)
If you want someone to blame, pick on the old, the poorly educated, and those fucking bastards who write the tabloids, and the fucking Tories which are the source of our nation's problems. Blame the fucking lack of political education, the bullshit campaign of bullshit, the low voter turnout, the bullshit political manovuers that're going on and honestly I don't think are legal.
(also fishermen aren't as bad for voting Brexit. Note the post of that portugese guy.)
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