• eBay to ban sale of Confederate flag merchandise
    306 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;48043186]People are arguing against the sentiment of waving it around in public, but I've only seen one post saying it should be outright banned.[/QUOTE] They are saying it should only be "allowed" in a "historical context", which I disagree with based on my understanding of the flag's meaning through personal connections.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;48043186]People are arguing against the sentiment of waving it around in public, but I've only seen one post saying it should be outright banned.[/QUOTE] Why shouldn't people be allowed to have it in public exactly? Freedom of Speech applies to puic spaces. The only place it shouldn't be is government buildings.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48042246]Wasn't it already pointed out that these "black volunteers" didn't see much combat an/or were never given direct combat roles? It's also worth noting that they started assembling these "volunteers" only a month or two before the war ended, during a period where they were very much getting their shit kicked in, so it's easy to assume that they only started doing this as a desperate last-ditch effort. When you're getting your shit kicked in by a force as brutal as the Union's, you start to consider EVERY option, even if it means recruiting an oppressed minority that you may or may not have been whipping just months before. No, it doesn't represent politics, or slave-owners. It just represents the poor sods those people hired to fight their war for them. They basically told them "Right, listen up, gentlemen! Them Union boys are comin' down to try and slap our shit 'cause we don't agree with their politics none, and they're gonna come down and lay everything to ruin until we surrender. But we don't plan on doin' that any time soon due to various political and economical interests all the wealthy folks have decided are important, so if you want to preserve your livelihood I'd suggest you grab that musket and follow me!" So even if it's "just a battle flag" to say it has no political attachments is ignorant. As for the racist stigma it's garnered for itself, let's just say it was never racist in the beginning, that the Civil War had absolutely nothing to do with slavery at all, slavery isn't even a thing that's cared about. Fast-forward to the 60s, and suddenly you have people waving this flag from that period while simultaneously doing their damndest to keep segregation in the south due to the common misconception that blacks aren't people and therefor aren't entitled to the same rights as white people. That's inarguably racist. BAM, you just made a flag into a symbol of racism with a handful of bigot parades. Same thing happened with the swastika. It was used in cultures all over the world, even Native American cultures, as a symbol for pretty much everything BUT killing off people and burning them in ovens, but thanks to a handful of bigot parades... You get the idea. At any rate, if you insist on being THAT passionate about it, then your efforts might be better served bitching at eBay rather than here, 'cause I'm pretty sure none of use here make any decisions for eBay.[/QUOTE] I meant to reply to this earlier but forgot, sorry. The free black volunteers were in from the start of the war. They didn't see much combat because they were assigned to home guard. Yes, that's probably because they didn't want blacks fighting for them. The Union, though, also had an awful approach - blacks in the Union army were used as disposable shock troops who, if they happened to survive, weren't paid the pensions they earned. Not exactly ethical in either case. I don't like seeing it painted like one was better than the other. Slaves were taken in right at the end of the war in exchange for their freedom. Also not really that ethical, no. So you agree the battle flag represents the lower-middle class citizens who answered the call to arms when their nation was invaded, while Union raiders were burning cities and farms for shock and awe. You would be an asshole to blame them for standing up to meet the tide. They didn't ask for the war but if they didn't fight their families would've been defenseless. It does not represent the politicians and the wealthy - it represents the people. That is why Southern people across race boundaries identify with the Confederate battle flag and not with the national or state flags. Yes, it picked up racist connotations beyond what it naturally had to begin with (a result of EVERYBODY being a racist piece of shit in the 1800s). But the flag itself is inherently no more racist than any flags flown by Union troops. If you put everyone in the south flying that flag today in a big bag and picked them out at random you would find a rainbow of people who identify with what that flag stood for when men died beneath it to defend their homes and a comparatively small number of seething racist hicks who want to use it to champion their bigotry.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48043288] So you agree the battle flag represents the lower-middle class citizens who answered the call to arms when their nation was invaded, while Union raiders were burning cities and farms for shock and awe. You would be an asshole to blame them for standing up to meet the tide. They didn't ask for the war but if they didn't fight their families would've been defenseless. It does not represent the politicians and the wealthy - it represents the people.[/QUOTE] They only had to fight to protect their families because wealthy people and politicians were throwing a titty-baby fit over various issues to the point that they said "THAT'S IT, WE'RE LEAVING THE UNION!"
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48043334]They only had to fight to protect their families because wealthy people and politicians were throwing a titty-baby fit over various issues to the point that they said "THAT'S IT, WE'RE LEAVING THE UNION!"[/QUOTE] Yes. And? They fought bravely against an aggressor they wanted nothing to do with. We don't celebrate the Confederate government, we celebrate the troops from which many of us are descended. That's what I'm trying to tell you. The flag doesn't represent the Confederate government, it's a flag created by Confederate people, the soldiers, to express their unity against aggression.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48043349]Yes. And? They fought bravely against an aggressor they wanted nothing to do with. We don't celebrate the Confederate government, we celebrate the troops from which many of us are descended. That's what I'm trying to tell you. The flag doesn't represent the Confederate government, it's a flag created by Confederate people, the soldiers, to express their unity against aggression.[/QUOTE] I forgot that people actually take the "War of Northern Aggression" as an actual fact. Maybe [I]not trying to leave the country[/I] would have stopped that. You know, you wouldn't be glorifying this flag if the south had just said "hey maybe this slavery thing isn't all that good." It was a rebellion meant to defend an indefensible institution. No matter how you try to phrase it, you're glorifying the flag of a nation that existed solely because they didn't want to give up owning human beings like cattle. You're glorifying the flag of an army of people that volunteered to give up their lives to protect their right to own human beings as property. It's actually impressive that you somehow haven't realized why people think that the symbol that rallied these people together is offensive.
It's impressive that you've managed to create such a logic gridlock in your mind that you use a generalization of 9 million people based on nothing but geographic location and opinions held by a tiny sliver of that population in that enormous swath of land while arguing against what you perceive to be racism.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48043526]I forgot that people actually take the "War of Northern Aggression" as an actual fact. Maybe [I]not trying to leave the country[/I] would have stopped that. You know, you wouldn't be glorifying this flag if the south had just said "hey maybe this slavery thing isn't all that good." It was a rebellion meant to defend an indefensible institution. No matter how you try to phrase it, you're glorifying the flag of a nation that existed solely because they didn't want to give up owning human beings like cattle. You're glorifying the flag of an army of people that volunteered to give up their lives to protect their right to own human beings as property. It's actually impressive that you somehow haven't realized why people think that the symbol that rallied these people together is offensive.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]You're glorifying the flag of an army of people that volunteered to give up their lives to protect their right to own human beings as property. [/QUOTE] How can you say this still after everything grenadiac has given you? Do you really think the majority of troops were fighting FOR slavery as they saw their friends die in front of them by their own countrymen? You know, the slaves they would probably never be able to own and afford. Also it was hardly as much as a "Volunteer" job as much as it was, "I dont wanna die or be invaded, I need to fight" and it wasnt much "I need to fight this war so those rich politicians and slave owners who dont know me can keep living healthy rich lifestyles while I go risk myself for them"
[QUOTE=bdd458;48043230]Why shouldn't people be allowed to have it in public exactly? Freedom of Speech applies to puic spaces. The only place it shouldn't be is government buildings.[/QUOTE] [quote]arguing against the sentiment[/quote] is not [quote]saying it should be outright banned[/quote] quit this "but what about my free speech" bullshit because the only one bringing up this "it should be banned" argument you're arguing against is yourself
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034164]It's a shame that a terrorist attack has to be the kicker to ban stuff like this[/QUOTE] The problem is the term 'terrorist attach' has been overused and used far too softly by the media for years, thereby overriding the really reason for the attack: racism. It is symbol based on racist principles, but I absolutely agree that to have a symbol of people (after all, they were real people) that were fighting, for what in all intents and purposes they believed in, just disappear like this is a strange thing to witness.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48043554]How can you say this still after everything grenadiac has given you? Do you really think the majority of troops were fighting FOR slavery as they saw their friends die in front of them by their own countrymen? You know, the slaves they would probably never be able to own and afford. Also it was hardly as much as a "Volunteer" job as much as it was, "I dont wanna die or be invaded, I need to fight" and it wasnt much "I need to fight this war so those rich politicians and slave owners who dont know me can keep living healthy rich lifestyles while I go risk myself for them"[/QUOTE] I don't really give a shit what each individual soldier was thinking - ignoring that the first wave of soldiers were literal volunteers. If your grandfather was a nazi soldier, okay. You can remember him fondly. Maybe he wasn't an anti-semite, maybe he only fought because he wanted to protect his country, okay, that's great. Once you start parading around a Nazi flag to remember your heritage and to respect the fallen soldiers of WWII, you've stopped honoring your fallen ancestors and tied your heritage to the ideology of the Nazi party. There's nothing wrong at all with respecting fallen ancestors, no matter what side of the war they were on or what their personal beliefs were. They're relatives and they died in battle and they should be respected. I'm not calling on people to tear down every confederate war memorial in the country - I'm just saying that flying a confederate flag does not signal "respecting my fallen ancestors from the civil war." It signals the beliefs of the confederacy - not the beliefs of your single fallen ancestor, who may or may not have supported slavery, and who may have only fought the war to protect his family and his land. That's irrelevant - the moment you fly that flag, you tie the political philosophy of what the flag represented to your heritage, and that's why it's disrespectful. An American flag over the coffin of a dead American soldier doesn't just show respect for fallen soldiers - it ties their identity to the US and what the US fought for. 50 years down the line, an Afghan man could rightly be offended if his new neighbor flew a big American flag - especially after his parents were killed in a drone strike. Do you think he would feel represented if his country's capitol building flew an American flag right next to the Afghan flag? The US guy could just say he's respecting his home country and his heritage - but it'll still offend that person. What's the fucking difference concerning the Civil War? The Confederacy fought to protect the institution of slavery. It was a war. The flag stands for those beliefs. If you want to honor your dead ancestors, buy a fucking gravestone and put some flowers there. Frame their war memorabilia. Just realize that publicly displaying a symbol that is associated with racism and white supremacy will be publicly understood as you tacitly supporting racism and white supremacy.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48043592]is not quit this "but what about my free speech" bullshit because the only one bringing up this "it should be banned" argument you're arguing against is yourself[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48041123]My point is, some symbols can be so irrefutably tarnished by hate that they no longer can be used in a neutral setting, as they are now purely signs of hatred. Like the Swastika, use of the stars and bars in anything other than a historic setting (museums, movies) [B]should be prosecuted, or at the very least, followed closely[/B]. [editline]24th June 2015[/editline] Hell, I'm not even American and I "get" it, we have something rather similar going on here (muh Falklands!!111!1!!), and it's a bruised ego thing. Just let it go.[/QUOTE] ??????????
[QUOTE=bdd458;48043716]??????????[/QUOTE] Zero Americans have shown any support for banning the flag. One Argentinian guy did - we have different standards for free speech in different countries. I know zero people in real life who want to literally ban the flag.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48043738]Zero Americans have shown any support for banning the flag. One Argentinian guy did - we have different standards for free speech in different countries. I know zero people in real life who want to literally ban the flag.[/QUOTE] The point is you can't say "no one is saying that" when someone is, and even then it inherently is a free speech issue. People want to use the Confederate Flag for a variety of purposes, and I don't care, and I'll disagree with them all since it's one of the tackiest things around - but that's their right (I still cringe whenever I see a truck here in Connecticut decked out with it). Trying to ban it's use on products and its sale is stupid. Plain and simple. I still don't think Government buildings should be flying it, as I've stated multiple times, but it's people's right to buy it on phone cases and flags and decals, just as much as any other banner or flag that can be deemed "offensive" which is in itself a bad reason to make any decision to not sell or make something.
[QUOTE=bdd458;48043716]??????????[/QUOTE] yknow i was actually talking about that one specific post that said "people are saying it should be looked down upon not outright banned" to which you replied "BUT WHY BAN IT??"
While I can get what people are saying about the flag not necessarily being a symbol of racism, using the flag in any other connotation just sounds to me like arguing the Civil War was started over states rights. I get the argument, but you're still taking pride in a symbol that was used by a secessionist government in a bloody civil war over a practice that holds no moral value and as someone who doesn't adhere to the values of the American South, it just feels very bizarre. I get the desire to honor the war dead, but why take such pride in such a brutal and destructive conflict? That said, turning this into some sort of free speech violation is silly. Nobody's banned the flag. If stores don't want to stock it, that's there prerogative.
oh and a privately owned website banning sales of certain items is [I]not[/I] an attack on free speech
[QUOTE=bdd458;48043757]The point is you can't say "no one is saying that" when someone is, and even then it inherently is a free speech issue. People want to use the Confederate Flag for a variety of purposes, and I don't care, and I'll disagree with them all since it's one of the tackiest things around - but that's their right (I still cringe whenever I see a truck here in Connecticut decked out with it). Trying to ban it's use on products and its sale is stupid. Plain and simple.[/QUOTE] It's stupid, yeah, but what do you want to do? Tell eBay and Walmart "no, you [I]have to keep selling these products.[/I]" Because that's a first amendment violation, too. If a person wants to fly a confederate flag, okay, let them, that's their right. If a company doesn't want to sell a confederate flag, okay, great, that's their right. If a company wants to produce exclusively confederate flag clothes and coffee cups and bedsheets and bandanas, okay, why not, go for it, that's their right. This is the same exact situation as when Steam got rid of Hatred and when Target Australia got rid of GTA5. Facepunch went up in arms about censorship. It's not censorship. It's a company deciding that they don't want to sell a product. There is literally nothing wrong with that by any stretch of the imagination - yes, you can call it out as hypocritical when they have arguably worse things on sale, but if that doesn't change their mind than that's the only thing you can do. It's just not worth getting upset about - you can't defend free speech rights of the individual and then go around and slam companies for "censorship" for using their free speech rights.
"heritage" is a pretty shit reason to be flying the flag too tbh. if you want to pay respect to your ancestors who fought in that war, how about you fly something that actually means more to your family than a flag flown for them to die under? or maybe admire an heirloom from them? a flag that hundreds fought and died under has much less meaning than something more personal to the person or family.
So will they ban all the nazi stuff on there too? No? Of course not, because it's not part of this ridiculous bandwagon that's spiraling out of control every day. It's likely in 6 months or less people won't give a fuck anymore and all these 'bans' will disappear.
[QUOTE=Computrix;48043896]So will they ban all the nazi stuff on there too? No? Of course not, because it's not part of this ridiculous bandwagon that's spiraling out of control every day. [/QUOTE] they already did
[QUOTE=Computrix;48043896]So will they ban all the nazi stuff on there too? No? Of course not, because it's not part of this ridiculous bandwagon that's spiraling out of control every day. It's likely in 6 months or less people won't give a fuck anymore and all these 'bans' will disappear.[/QUOTE] eBay disallow the sale of a lot of Nazi shit; [url]http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/offensive.html[/url] [t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6003122/ShareX/2015/06/2015-06-24_22-54-14.png[/t] It helps if you research things before you get mad at them, just saying.
[QUOTE=Last or First;48041744]It's not a flag to represent feelings of wanting slavery. It just represents feelings of banding together and fighting together. For slavery.[/QUOTE] You know, at the end of the day, it's just a flag. All it really is is cloth and dye. Whatever message you associate with it is up to you. Whatever message anyone else associates with it is up to them.
Really wish companies would quit getting on this stupid ass bandwagon. Why don;t we ban the American flag as well? What about the PRC flag, or the Soviet flag, or the countless others!
[QUOTE=Paramud;48044408]You know, at the end of the day, it's just a flag. All it really is is cloth and dye. Whatever message you associate with it is up to you. Whatever message anyone else associates with it is up to them.[/QUOTE] If it's just a flag, then surely they won't mind being asked by other people not to fly it, having less stores to buy it in, and not seeing it flown at government buildings. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go fly the Nazi flag. The swastika originally represented peace, so so does the Nazi flag.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;48045226]Really wish companies would quit getting on this stupid ass bandwagon. Why don;t we ban the American flag as well? What about the PRC flag, or the Soviet flag, or the countless others![/QUOTE] You can take my DPRK flag when you pry it from my cold dead hands!
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48041123]My point is, some symbols can be so irrefutably tarnished by hate that they no longer can be used in a neutral setting, as they are now purely signs of hatred. Like the Swastika, [B]use of the stars and bars in anything other than a historic setting (museums, movies) should be prosecuted, or at the very least, followed closely.[/B] [editline]24th June 2015[/editline] Hell, I'm not even American and I "get" it, we have something rather similar going on here (muh Falklands!!111!1!!), and it's a bruised ego thing. Just let it go.[/QUOTE] That's unconstitutional. Freedom of Expression and all that jazz.
[QUOTE=Last or First;48045335]If it's just a flag, then surely they won't mind being asked by other people not to fly it, having less stores to buy it in, and not seeing it flown at government buildings. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go fly the Nazi flag. The swastika originally represented peace, so so does the Nazi flag.[/QUOTE] Actually, in the context of the Nazi German flag, the swastika was originally a pagan symbol meant to represent Thor's hammer. And yeah, you can do that if you want. I don't care because I'm not a baby that gets upset over flags.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48034221][url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-German-WW2-Military-Army-Poster-Liberators-18x24-/300850727078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460c19c8a6]I[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Netherlands-WW2-War-Military-Poster-Print-Soldiers-in-German-Uniforms-2-/221783663352?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a35622f8]wonder[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRITISH-BUF-ARMBAND-german-ww2-1930s-BLACKSHIRTS-UNION-OF-FASCISTS-/261940447222?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cfcde07f6]what[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Italy-Italian-Fascist-Army-Savoia-Flag-84-x-54-/331586993298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d341ffc92]other[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Hinomaru-Yosegaki-Navy-Rising-Sun-Silk-Battle-Flag-40-x-24-/361312496169?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541fe72a29]possibly[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Samurai-Vintage-Japanese-WW2-Propaganda-Poster-18x24-/300850723939?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460c19bc63]offensive[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-AUNT-JEMIMA-Pancakes-DEYS-a-HAPPIFYIN-Racist-Dialouge-VINTAGE-AD-/281336713305?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4180f99059]items[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1915-RACIST-Ohio-History-Grocery-Store-Advertising-Plate-Black-w-Watermelon-VGC-/291480142920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd920448]you[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-Ad-Buescher-Band-Music-Instrument-Saxophone-Tom-Brown-Blackface-Racist-YYC6-/301643720128?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463b5de5c0]could[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/SS-3X5-FT-FLAG-POLYESTER-/221801305634?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a4635622]buy[/url][/QUOTE] Great, now Ebay posts are showing up on my facebook feed recommending me nazi memorabilia...
The one argument I hate is when people say that it's somehow better because it wasn't the actual CSA flag. We don't use that flag, we use the one that's been appropriated by racists and would probably be mostly forgotten if the Klan hadn't used it. That's much better.
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