• eBay to ban sale of Confederate flag merchandise
    306 replies, posted
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034560]Shows how much Americans really care about moving on hey? Really justifies my argument that America is trapped in this loop of holding onto things that need to be thrown away asap. How hard is it to say "look, I know it's not my government's fault, and the government before this and so on. But as an American, and as somebody who believes in justice. I want to apologise posthumously to those who were treated with harshness and indignity during slavery, after slavery and before the civil rights movement" that's it, that's all, you begin the healing process, you kick the reforms in trying to dismantle racist stigma like street signs and what not and move on[/QUOTE] Holding every white person responsible for slavery is irrational and, guess what, racist. My ancestors were Irish. Their conditions were little better than slaves under the wealthy landowners who employed them for chump change (just enough to pay for the shit room and board they forced them to pay them for in order to keep working for them). I don't owe anything to anyone for that and I will not accept a burden that someone else has imagined up for me to bear. Those ancestors then stood and fought for their land, their home, against invading Union forces, under the Confederate battle flag, a replica of which is now neatly folded in a shadow box. Fuck me, right?
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034162]I don't think everyone who wants to buy a confederate flag is filled with racism and hatred. Some do want to honor the hundreds of thousands of people who lost their lives, and cities/towns that were destroyed in the war. This is getting a bit stupid.[/QUOTE] And still others want a model of a muscle car used in a TV show they grew up watching. It really is stupid.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034560]Shows how much Americans really care about moving on hey? Really justifies my argument that America is trapped in this loop of holding onto things that need to be thrown away asap. How hard is it to say "look, I know it's not my government's fault, and the government before this and so on. But as an American, and as somebody who believes in justice. I want to apologise posthumously to those who were treated with harshness and indignity during slavery, after slavery and before the civil rights movement" that's it, that's all, you begin the healing process, you kick the reforms in trying to dismantle racist stigma like street signs and what not and move on[/QUOTE] Because I don't have anything to apologize for. It was 200 years ago and I am as removed from it as I can be. I think it was scummy as hell that it happened and a dark mark on my country, but I'm not going to apologize for something I had literally no hand in just to soothe a few peoples hurt feelings.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;48034569]"I fly this Nazi flag, but I just care about the Werhmacht and them defending their homeland Germany, honest!" Can you imagine if people said this[/QUOTE] Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if some WWII vets did, even if they were dragged into the war for the wrong reason they may be using it to remember their fallen comrades. I probably wouldn't care unless they started saying anti-Semitic things
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034406]Hasn't the British flag practically not changed over the past 400 years? Weren't they some of the first to start exporting slaves in the 1600's? Should UK change their flag as it could be considered offensive?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=codenamecueball;48034010]does anyone else here get proper servere chest pains when they see a union jack or st georges cross[/QUOTE] sorry mate but i don't exactly like the british flag
[QUOTE=Pascall;48034421]What are the "non-racist" uses for owning a confederate flag? Like I'm actually curious because I have never met someone down here who has owned a confederate flag and wasn't, at the very least, prone to low key racism.[/QUOTE] As weird as it is, I've been wanting to collect flags and rifles of the defeated enemies of the United States for display purposes at museums/events
I bet some of you fucks are swastika apologists "Ugh, why is it offensive, you know it's a hindi symbol of good luck right?" Symbols evolve, just like language. Go up to a stranger and tell him he looks incredibly gay today, see how well it goes. He might not think you see him as a merry man. Let me pull out my favorite Nazi Germany flag to honor my great great uncle who fought on Germany's side. That being said, Confederate flag itself is still a piece of history, don't wave that shit around unless you are retarded, but we shouldn't ban memorabilia. Just don't act like there is no history of racism behind it.
@JohnFisher89 In my country, a day or two ago I was driving on the Ipswich motorway. You will have no idea what that is but that's alright. A ute (pick up truck) overtakes me and I get fairly close to them. They have a bumper sticker of the state of Flordia with the confederacy flag on it. Now, why would that be the case? There's barely any Americans living here, the only Americans I knew weren't white. I'm not sure what ethnicity they are. But I also remembered that alongside the Eureka flag, the confederacy flag makes random spot ups and appearances These spot-ups are mostly seen at[B][U] anti-immigration rallies[/U][/B] alongside the Eureka stockade flag which is seen as a "flag of justice" but really was used during the gold-mining era and has a stigma attached because most miners in that day hated the Chinese They hated immigrants bc they were taking their money from the mines. So that driver, is most likely a low key racist. There can't be any other explanation for having that sort of bumper sticker in this country when it's associated with anti-immigrations It's a flag with a racist meaning and background, and it's a little sad to see people on this forum defend it to the death
Tbh I don't think apologizing matters as much as recognizing the results of racism and systematic racism that still exists today. Just doing things like checking behavior around other people of other races to try and wean yourself off of preconceived notions and maybe calling someone else out for saying something kinda messed up. That alone helps immensely, honestly. I've only experienced racism a number of times in my life but when you find people who are willing to stick up for you and recognize that a lot of people still consider the world catered to the white man with a desire to do what you can to change that, it helps a lot.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034637]@JohnFisher89 In my country, a day or two ago I was driving on the Ipswich motorway. You will have no idea what that is but that's alright. A ute (pick up truck) overtakes me and I get fairly close to them. They have a bumper sticker of the state of Flordia with the confederacy flag on it. Now, why would that be the case? There's barely any Americans leaving here, the only Americans I knew weren't white. I'm not sure what ethnicity they are. But I also remembered that alongside the Eureka flag, the confederacy flag makes random spot ups and appearances These spot-ups are mostly seen at[B][U] anti-immigration rallies[/U][/B] alongside the Eureka stockade flag which is seen as a "flag of justice" but really was used during the gold-mining era and has a stigma attached because most miners in that day hated the Chinese They hated immigrants bc they were taking their money from the mines. So that driver, is most likely a low key racist. There can't be any other explanation for having that sort of bumper sticker in this country when it's associated with anti-immigrations It's a flag with a racist meaning and background, and it's a little sad to see people on this forum defend it to the death[/QUOTE] I'm sorry people are appropriating a flag my ancestors died beneath to represent their hatred and bigotry in a country whose history is irrelevant to mine. But because you don't like it in Australia, as an Australian, doesn't mean your opinion has any fucking bearing on it here.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034637] It's a flag with a racist meaning and background, and it's a little sad to see people on this forum defend it to the death[/QUOTE] I would defend the flag only for the historical meaning and to protect it from outright destruction, but it's wrong to try and take away its meaning. Having it up at battle sites, memorials, graveyards and etc. is one thing, and that's okay. Using it to further one's views is another, and that's wrong.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48034618]As weird as it is, I've been wanting to collect flags and rifles of the defeated enemies of the United States for display purposes at museums/events[/QUOTE] That's not weird! That's kinda cool actually.
Look, you're allowed to keep history as long as you fully understand the context about it But the modern day uses for the confederacy flag are not the true meanings you lot are boasting Feel free to buy one, and have it hang up somewhere in your house and explain why you think it's important I'm not telling you, you shouldn't. I just think it's a dumb flag, but then again I'm not American and I'm not Southern. Go for gold
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034162]I don't think everyone who wants to buy a confederate flag is filled with racism and hatred. Some do want to honor the hundreds of thousands of people who lost their lives, and cities/towns that were destroyed in the war. This is getting a bit stupid.[/QUOTE] So people should use any other symbol and not one that has represented racism??? [QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034406]Hasn't the British flag practically not changed over the past 400 years? Weren't they some of the first to start exporting slaves in the 1600's? Should UK change their flag as it could be considered offensive?[/QUOTE] Context is everything, the UK's flag has that history behind it sure but it doesn't obviously represent that anymore where as the confederate flag has and still represents racism and is still seen as such. [QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034431]Did you not pay attention in history cla- [img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/gb.png[/img] Slavery was one of many points in the civil war, but it was not the only one. Tax, trade, and commerce were also some of the issues in the war. Slavery was just the most notable reason, as it would affect all the areas I listed.[/QUOTE] Cool your right, there were other issues fought over during the war but those were completely minor compared to ya know what actually started it and the main reason....slavery I don't know if your just ignorant or racist cause I see no reason to be defending the flag or to push stupid examples and ideas that are wrong.
[QUOTE=Pascall;48034655]That's not weird! That's kinda cool actually.[/QUOTE] I've seen things like that at local reenactment events. Vendors were selling Nazi memorbilia such as badges, uniform parts and even flags, but they were all captured. One of the highest priced pieces was a [I]massive[/I] [url=https://www.ultimateflags.com/images/P/buy_german_wwii_flag-01-01.gif]Battle Flag[/url] that was covered in American names, as it was torn down and captured by liberating troops. There's a special place for images and remnants of horrible acts and horrible people. Its meant to be remembered, and stuff that spits on the image of said horrible things (i.e having the captured trophy flag) can dilute its power and make it a relic.
In my town there are people who fly the confederate flag on lit flag poles, next to the state flag and the American flag. I have no idea why, we are a northern state, Indiana, and not southern at all. I've also seen it all over the place being flown on trucks and such. Here in Indiana it represents nothing but racism and white supremacy, since there's no cultural heritage behind it. Having a confederate flag in a display case on a wall with your collection of southern memorbilia is one thing, but flying it publically, at least here in Indiana is a discrace to all the hoosiers who fought and died during the civil war. But then again, in the end it's just a flag, it's motive behind displaying it that matters.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034560]Shows how much Americans really care about moving on hey? Really justifies my argument that America is trapped in this loop of holding onto things that need to be thrown away asap. How hard is it to say "look, I know it's not my government's fault, and the government before this and so on. But as an American, and as somebody who believes in justice. I want to apologise posthumously to those who were treated with harshness and indignity during slavery, after slavery and before the civil rights movement" that's it, that's all, you begin the healing process, you kick the reforms in trying to dismantle racist stigma like street signs and what not and move on[/QUOTE] But I'm not holding onto anything? If someone's trying to make me apologize for something that has literally nothing to do with me in any way, they're the one that needs to let go. If treating people fairly and holding no bias based on race isn't enough for someone, they can get fucked. I try and live in a modern time, if they want to live in previous decades, so be it, it's not my problem.
If I want to be on equal terms with you all after this argument, I've wanted to collect the Apartheid era South African flag due to my interest in African history. The British involvement and Apartheid seriously interest me. I'd never display the flag publicly though and tbh I don't know where I'd store it. If you showed anyone that flag in this country you'd be sculled. Just like if you were to show the confederacy flag now Keep ahold of memorabilia just again, remember what it's purpose is and the meaning
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034492] Yet you rarely hear about the South apologising for slavery, or even the federal government There hasn't been any if not at all any reconciliation for African Americans or even Native Americans for their oppression over many years There's fucking bridges, streets and towns (?) named after fucking Klansmen, and yet you lot shovel racism under a pile of dirt and say it doesn't exist You say it doesn't exist when a fucking flag representing oppression has people crying for its removal You say it doesn't exist when you have politicians even coming from the right saying it's time for it to go How about white Americans find the decency to apologise to the oppressed just like it's western counterparts[/QUOTE] Banning of slavery, reparations, affirmative action, desegregation, Education/Military Integration, all are some form of making right what happened 200 years ago. You're asking for a collective "I'm sorry" from a group of people who at this point had LITERALLY NOTHING to do with the civil war or slavery who are completely removed from them at this point, and that makes no sense at all. You're more concerned over hurt and sentimental feelings that will somehow be quelled by us whites writing to the NAACP or some shit saying "we're sorry, guys" over the actual actions to put it right. Then again, I probably shouldn't be surprised at another bleeding heart of FP more concerned about sentimentalities over results.
so what if the confederate flag is racist, who cares? not letting anyone sell it isn't just going to make it disappear. racist hicks are going to get their dumb t-shirt and phone cases one way or another
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034637]@JohnFisher89 In my country, a day or two ago I was driving on the Ipswich motorway. You will have no idea what that is but that's alright. A ute (pick up truck) overtakes me and I get fairly close to them. They have a bumper sticker of the state of Flordia with the confederacy flag on it. Now, why would that be the case? There's barely any Americans living here, the only Americans I knew weren't white. I'm not sure what ethnicity they are. But I also remembered that alongside the Eureka flag, the confederacy flag makes random spot ups and appearances These spot-ups are mostly seen at[B][U] anti-immigration rallies[/U][/B] alongside the Eureka stockade flag which is seen as a "flag of justice" but really was used during the gold-mining era and has a stigma attached because most miners in that day hated the Chinese They hated immigrants bc they were taking their money from the mines. So that driver, is most likely a low key racist. There can't be any other explanation for having that sort of bumper sticker in this country when it's associated with anti-immigrations It's a flag with a racist meaning and background, and it's a little sad to see people on this forum defend it to the death[/QUOTE] I'm sorry you met some racist people but please understand not everyone is like that, thinking that based on that experience is who all southern people are is really shallow. Every country will have their bigots, racists, and morons. It is unavoidable, but the vast majority is not like that.You can't help that unless you are a country of 1 persons. You must realize that in our country just because something has been used by racists does not inherently make the symbol racist for all people who choose to own one.
[QUOTE=DesumThePanda;48034693]so what if the confederate flag is racist, who cares? not letting anyone sell it isn't just going to make it disappear.[/QUOTE] This is personally my big problem with the stop on sales. It was done entirely to just wipe away the fact that they had previously allowed the flag to be sold before, and sweep it under the rug.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034431]Did you not pay attention in history cla- [img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/gb.png[/img] Slavery was one of many points in the civil war, but it was not the only one. Tax, trade, and commerce were also some of the issues in the war. Slavery was just the most notable reason, as it would affect all the areas I listed.[/QUOTE] Just because you americans learn nothing but "'Muricuh Fuck yer" in school doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't learn history outside their own country.
I wish reactionary bullshit like this was ended once and for all
I honestly don't understand why people are defending the Confederate flag though, would you be ok with people hanging Nazi flags in their windows? Yes, people died for both flags, but that doesn't make the ideas behind them any less wrong. Believe me, the last thing a German soldier would do is remember his dead friends through a Swastika, especially after learning about the Holocaust and the concentration camps. That's not what they thought they are fighting for.
[QUOTE=bobsynergy;48034674]So people should use any other symbol and not one that has represented racism??? Context is everything, the UK's flag has that history behind it sure but it doesn't obviously represent that anymore where as the confederate flag has and still represents racism and is still seen as such. Cool your right, there were other issues fought over during the war but those were completely minor compared to ya know what actually started it and the main reason....slavery I don't know if your just ignorant or racist cause I see no reason to be defending the flag or to push stupid examples and ideas that are wrong.[/QUOTE] Slavery was not what started the Civil War lol and it was only an issue because the imminent banning of slavery before the South's economy was equipped (mechanized) to move away from it would've collapsed everything. Most people acknowledged it as a moral evil and those who didn't were the small percentage of wealthy slave owners. Those slave owners kept slaves because it was cost effective, not because they were racist (though they certainly were racist as well). They would enslave anyone else if it was legal. The Civil War kicked off because Southern states felt like they were underrepresented in the federal government they didn't want in the first place, so they broke off to start a country with the type of government they wanted when the US was being formed - a confederacy of states. Slavery was one topic among many, and although many states and loud voices made it look like a huge issue, I guarantee you it was far from the front of any soldier's mind. The men shedding blood on the battlefield weren't fighting for slavery.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034710]Just because you americans learn nothing but "'Muricuh Fuck yer" in school doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't learn history outside their own country.[/QUOTE] So what incredible light has the Danish education bestowed on you that we somehow missed, then? Please enlighten, oh great European Übermensch! After all, I only learned "America Fuck Yer!" I guess my teachers weren't incredibly critical of Afghanistan, Vietnam, Kosovo, etc.
I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Most people who want actual memorabilia can probably still find it elsewhere on the net. If you're that committed to owning a flag or something similar, it shouldn't be hard to find. But having eBay stop the sale of merchandise with the flag on it may decrease the number of dummies who just want it on a shirt or a belt buckle. At least those kinds of people who actually use eBay. I mean maybe. Who knows.
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48034720]I honestly don't understand why people are defending the Confederate flag though, would you be ok with people hanging Nazi flags in their windows? Yes, people died for both flags, but that doesn't make the ideas behind them any less wrong. Believe me, the last thing a German soldier would do is remember his dead friends through a Swastika, especially after learning about the Holocaust and the concentration camps. That's not what they thought they are fighting for.[/QUOTE] Americans love nothing more than glorifying war, hell US marine corps snipers used the SS logo for years before someone finally put a stop to it. Hell, most Americans still believe they won the vietnamese war :v: [QUOTE=evilweazel;48034737]So what incredible light has the Danish education bestowed on you that we somehow missed, then? Please enlighten, oh great European Übermensch! After all, I only learned "America Fuck Yer!" I guess my teachers weren't incredibly critical of Afghanistan, Vietnam, Kosovo, etc.[/QUOTE] Apparently you didn't learn to read either, the person I quoted implied that because the other poster was British, they couldn't know anything about US history.
I feel a bit shit from going full out on you lot after admitting that and I see the discrepancies in my arguments I just, from my point of view, view the flag as racist and view people who fly it publicly and display it as racist as well (more low key than anything) but I understand why some of you feel a deep connection to it Such as, if your ancestors fought in the confederacy But whatever, I don't think it belongs anywhere and has entrenched meanings that are better buried than exhibited. That's my opinion anyway. But feel free to collect war time memorabilia and flags from axis powers or wars like this. Nobody should stop anybody from doing that, just, again, understand the meaning and purpose behind those items.
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