• eBay to ban sale of Confederate flag merchandise
    306 replies, posted
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034747] But feel free to collect war time memorabilia and flags from axis powers or wars like this. Nobody should stop anybody from doing that, just, again, understand the meaning and purpose behind those items.[/QUOTE] I think this is the best way to put it when it comes to these sorts of things. There's nothing wrong with purchasing the sort of stuff if you're a collector, have ancestors involved with the period, or just have an interest in it. Using it to make a statement, however, is wrong, and only furthers the power behind the imagery.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034746]Americans love nothing more than glorifying war, hell US marine corps snipers used the SS logo for years before someone finally put a stop to it. Hell,[B] most Americans still believe they won the vietnamese war :[/B]v:[/QUOTE] You're actually this misinformed, aren't you? Oh, Christ. No one thinks we "won" Vietnam. Thats... sorta why we pulled out in the first place? Because the general public at the time saw it as unwinnable...? Seriously, where do you get your information on the US from besides FP and r/worldnews? It's turning out to be a little on the inaccurate side, as surprising as that must be for you.
My ancestors were in Germany during the Civil War and in America during WWII. My slate is clean heyo!
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034747]I feel a bit shit from going full out on you lot after admitting that and I see the discrepancies in my arguments I just, from my point of view, view the flag as racist and view people who fly it publicly and display it as racist as well (more low key than anything) but I understand why some of you feel a deep connection to it Such as, if your ancestors fought in the confederacy But whatever, I don't think it belongs anywhere and has entrenched meanings that are better buried than exhibited. That's my opinion anyway. But feel free to collect war time memorabilia and flags from axis powers or wars like this. Nobody should stop anybody from doing that, just, again, understand the meaning and purpose behind those items.[/QUOTE] Thanks for this. I was heated too, and not quite as clear as I could have been when positing my viewpoints. Hopefully we can both come away having learned something.
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48034720]I honestly don't understand why people are defending the Confederate flag though, would you be ok with people hanging Nazi flags in their windows? Yes, people died for both flags, but that doesn't make the ideas behind them any less wrong. Believe me, the last thing a German soldier would do is remember his dead friends through a Swastika, especially after learning about the Holocaust and the concentration camps. That's not what they thought they are fighting for.[/QUOTE] Because it's a fucking flag CLOTH, FABRIC, POLYESTER, NYLON, COTTON, even WOOL There's a difference between owning a flag because you like the look of it or are interested in flags, or heritage, and owning it to prolong your beliefs This is just a knee-jerk reaction because some racist fuck murdered 9 people in cold blood, and he owned confederate flag memorabilia I own a Soviet flag, does that mean I'm a communist and support Stalinism or communist regimes that have murdered many people?
[QUOTE=evilweazel;48034768]You're actually this misinformed, aren't you? Oh, Christ. No one thinks we "won" Vietnam. Thats... sorta why we pulled out in the first place? Because the general public at the time saw it as unwinnable...? Seriously, where do you get your information on the US from besides FP and r/worldnews? It's turning out to be a little on the inaccurate side, as surprising as that must be for you.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying they thought they won it at the time, I'm saying that if you ask most people nowadays, especially people who weren't alive when the war was going on, they'd say the US won.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034710]Just because you americans learn nothing but "'Muricuh Fuck yer" in school doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't learn history outside their own country.[/QUOTE] I was pointing out the fact that the post labeled the civil war as only white people trying to suppress black people, which while slavery was a major factor, was not the only cause of the civil war. You are stereotyping as much as the post I was replying to was.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034781]I'm not saying they thought they won it at the time, I'm saying that if you ask most people nowadays, especially people who weren't alive when the war was going on, they'd say the US won.[/QUOTE] This isn't true though. Everyone is fully aware that Vietnam was a colossal fuckup. Also the "SS logo" as well as the totenkopf was in use by sharpshooters even prior to WW1. Both symbols were adopted from the Prussian military IIRC.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034781]I'm not saying they thought they won it at the time, I'm saying that if you ask most people nowadays, especially people who weren't alive when the war was going on, they'd say the US won.[/QUOTE] Everyone I know, especially people here in the South who are "AMERICA #1" know we lost the Vietnam war.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034781]I'm not saying they thought they won it at the time, I'm saying that if you ask most people nowadays, especially people who weren't alive when the war was going on, they'd say the US won.[/QUOTE] No, they wouldn't. It's taught in our "murica fuk yer!!!" education system that it was a huge fuckup, and that view is held by most anyone with a high school diploma or above. How often do you interact with the everyday American, and not cherrypicked videos saying "amerikkka r dum" that you find on reddit? You've been horribly misinformed about a foreign Country and for someone sounding off on how worldly their education is that is well, a little embarrassing.
Right, ban all the confederate flags. Racism's over everyone! We changed the flag!
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034783]I was pointing out the fact that the post labeled the civil war as only white people trying to suppress black people, which while slavery was a major factor, was not the only cause of the civil war. You are stereotyping as much as the post I was replying to was.[/QUOTE] Except you were specifically saying it wasn't because he didn't pay attention in history class, but because he was British. And I must have ran into colossal imbeciles whenever the topic of the vietnam war came up then, oh well. It's nice knowing it's a minority then, guess it just attracts them like flies.
What about cases where it's used ironically? [IMG]http://jackthriller.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/kanye-shirt2.jpg[/IMG] If I owned this shirt by Kayne West, it's not okay to sell it?
[QUOTE=Crimor;48034818]Except you were specifically saying it wasn't because he didn't pay attention in history class, but because he was British. [/QUOTE] [quote]Slavery was one of many points in the civil war, but it was not the only one. Tax, trade, and commerce were also some of the issues in the war. Slavery was just the most notable reason, as it would affect all the areas I listed.[/quote] Except I specifically say that slavery was one point of the civil war in the first three words....
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48034788]This isn't true though. Everyone is fully aware that Vietnam was a colossal fuckup. Also the "SS logo" as well as the totenkopf was in use by sharpshooters even prior to WW1. Both symbols were adopted from the Prussian military IIRC.[/QUOTE] The SS logo, which are the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes]Armanen Sig Runes[/url], was also used by the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Scout_Sniper#Controversial_use_of_the_.22SS.22_symbol]Marine Corps Scout Snipers[/url] since the 1980s until they stopped in 2012 with an apology
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48034728]Slavery was not what started the Civil War lol and it was only an issue because the imminent banning of slavery before the South's economy was equipped (mechanized) to move away from it would've collapsed everything. Most people acknowledged it as a moral evil and those who didn't were the small percentage of wealthy slave owners. Those slave owners kept slaves because it was cost effective, not because they were racist (though they certainly were racist as well). They would enslave anyone else if it was legal. The Civil War kicked off because Southern states felt like they were underrepresented in the federal government they didn't want in the first place, so they broke off to start a country with the type of government they wanted when the US was being formed - a confederacy of states. Slavery was one topic among many, and although many states and loud voices made it look like a huge issue, I guarantee you it was far from the front of any soldier's mind. The men shedding blood on the battlefield weren't fighting for slavery.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1wzr5a/what_were_the_souths_primary_motivations_for/cf6udfc[/url] You can easily find more write ups by other historians with everything sourced but I understand the trend of down playing slavery as a cause for the civil war and throwing it with other minor reasons...the facts remain it was the main cause. Yes I don't doubt there were soldiers who didn't have any connection to slavery who fought under that flag but to use it as a representation of them is wrong as it represents something entirely bigger then the individual soldiers and their reasons. Just like no one uses Nazi flags or Soviet flags to mourn the individual soldiers neither should people use the confederate flag for that reason as it still represents and is still used as a symbol of racism.
[QUOTE=Crash155;48034835]The SS logo, which are the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes]Armanen Sig Runes[/url], is also used by the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Scout_Sniper#Controversial_use_of_the_.22SS.22_symbol]Marine Corps Scout Snipers[/url] since the 1980s[/QUOTE] It is not used anymore.. it even says it
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48034221][url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-German-WW2-Military-Army-Poster-Liberators-18x24-/300850727078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460c19c8a6]I[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Netherlands-WW2-War-Military-Poster-Print-Soldiers-in-German-Uniforms-2-/221783663352?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a35622f8]wonder[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRITISH-BUF-ARMBAND-german-ww2-1930s-BLACKSHIRTS-UNION-OF-FASCISTS-/261940447222?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cfcde07f6]what[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Italy-Italian-Fascist-Army-Savoia-Flag-84-x-54-/331586993298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d341ffc92]other[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Hinomaru-Yosegaki-Navy-Rising-Sun-Silk-Battle-Flag-40-x-24-/361312496169?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541fe72a29]possibly[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Samurai-Vintage-Japanese-WW2-Propaganda-Poster-18x24-/300850723939?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460c19bc63]offensive[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-AUNT-JEMIMA-Pancakes-DEYS-a-HAPPIFYIN-Racist-Dialouge-VINTAGE-AD-/281336713305?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4180f99059]items[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1915-RACIST-Ohio-History-Grocery-Store-Advertising-Plate-Black-w-Watermelon-VGC-/291480142920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd920448]you[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-Ad-Buescher-Band-Music-Instrument-Saxophone-Tom-Brown-Blackface-Racist-YYC6-/301643720128?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463b5de5c0]could[/url] [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/SS-3X5-FT-FLAG-POLYESTER-/221801305634?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a4635622]buy[/url][/QUOTE] But those aren't the offenders of the day!
[QUOTE=Hugg;48034847]It is not used anymore.. it even says it[/QUOTE] whoops
[QUOTE=Crash155;48034778]Because it's a fucking flag CLOTH, FABRIC, POLYESTER, NYLON, COTTON, even WOOL[/QUOTE] Do you need a 101 class on symbolism? [QUOTE=Crash155;48034778]I own a Soviet flag, does that mean I'm a communist and support Stalinism or communist regimes that have murdered many people?[/QUOTE] No, unless you are taking pictures of yourself waving your gun around in front of the flag, pictures which clearly imply that you support the ideas behind the flag. Good thing no one is making that with the Confederate flag. Oh, wait.
There's literally nothing wrong with wanting a confederate flag.
[QUOTE=bobsynergy;48034844][url]http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1wzr5a/what_were_the_souths_primary_motivations_for/cf6udfc[/url] You can easily find more write ups by other historians with everything sourced but I understand the trend of down playing slavery as a cause for the civil war and throwing it with other minor reasons...the facts remain it was the main cause. Yes I don't doubt there were soldiers who didn't have any connection to slavery who fought under that flag but to use it as a representation of them is wrong as it represents something entirely bigger then the individual soldiers and their reasons. Just like no one uses Nazi flags or Soviet flags to mourn the individual soldiers neither should people use the confederate flag for that reason as it still represents and is still used as a symbol of racism.[/QUOTE] Uh, Soviet flags are definitely used to mourn Red Army soldiers. For German war deaths in WW2 the Balkenkreuz is used because that is the real symbol of the Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe graves bear Luftwaffe's symbols (including the swastika) and SS graves that haven't been vandalized have SS insignia. I understand there is historical documentation showing that slavery was very important in the minds of many Confederate leaders, but I am telling you that a warlike nation is nothing without an army to make war with, and that slavery was not a concern in the minds of the soldiers.
I was born in Kentucky, a border state in the Civil War (i.e. a slave state that didn't join the Confederacy). As such, or partly due to the fact I lived there for about .2 seconds before we moved, I didn't get too deep into confederate culture. I mean, I remember feeling skeeved out looking at a dashboard sticker in our car with the stars-n-bars flag and the word 'REDNECK' on it. It's not a proud symbol, to me, but it's a marker of history good and (mostly) bad nevertheless. On a more public scale, I think the thing doesn't belong displayed on, say, public office. It has no place standing as a marker of anything we should try to be proud of. These days, it's used as a marker of ignorance and defiance with the historical perspective used to defend it from criticism. Take it down from public buildings, capitol grounds, et cetera-- those places are meant to stand for and defend the people, and the flag stands for no such thing, not for all of them. However, banning its sale is an overreaction. As said, there's the desire to collect them. And besides, it's not like growing weed or building guns. If somebody wants a Confederate flag, I'm fair damn sure they can paint up a Confederate flag if they're deadset enough in their beliefs to bother. It's pointless to try and enact some sort of commercial condemnation on the thing, even if it means a few less dumb bumper stickers. EDIT: An addendum: if the thing had stayed as just a memorial to the Civil War, there would be some nobility to it still. But seeing it flapped around as a token of whitey pride (and mind you I'm about as white as fresh-pressed snow) back in the Little Rock protests just taints the image of it far too much for me.
[QUOTE=tempunary;48034870]There's literally nothing wrong with wanting a confederate flag.[/QUOTE] Depends on why you want it and how you plan to use it.
I still don't understand how the same people can say it represents their history and culture yet divorce it entirely from its origins Like, look at literally any article of secession from the Southern states in the runup to the civil war, every single one lists first and foremost the right to own slaves as their main reason for leaving the Union How are people defending it by saying "oh but it's HISTORY" [i]yet still[/i] trying to reinvent its history? this is mostly aimed at the older folks I know who live here in DFW, at least those of you arguing for it on Facepunch have some genuine thoughts on it beyond a kneejerk defense
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48034869]Do you need a 101 class on symbolism? No, unless you are taking pictures of yourself waving your gun around in front of the flag, pictures which clearly imply that you support the ideas behind the flag. Good thing no one is making that with the Confederate flag. Oh, wait.[/QUOTE] I took a picture of an airsoft gun sitting on my soviet flag Show's over, I am of communist DOWN WITH CAPITALISM
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48034869]Do you need a 101 class on symbolism? No, unless you are taking pictures of yourself waving your gun around in front of the flag, pictures which clearly imply that you support the ideas behind the flag. Good thing no one is making that with the Confederate flag. Oh, wait.[/QUOTE] I'm not in support of the Confederate flag, but seriously, you can say the same thing about the American flag. You can say the same about any flag. People will have a diehard passion for said flag. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with someone having the flag. Sure, you can say it's in bad taste, but to that person they like the flag for a reason. People can have the Confederate flag and not be racist at all. People can collect these flags. People can see a deeper history with the flag, IE: Ancestors that either fought in the Civil War or were apart of the Confederate States of America.
[QUOTE=Crash155;48034835]The SS logo, which are the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes]Armanen Sig Runes[/url], was also used by the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Scout_Sniper#Controversial_use_of_the_.22SS.22_symbol]Marine Corps Scout Snipers[/url] since the 1980s until they stopped in 2012 with an apology[/QUOTE] And the finnish airforce flag used to have a swastika in it until the nazis ruined it, your point? And the flag in that wiki picture was bought from a nazi memorabilia site if I remember right. Hell, I thought the marines using the sig runes before as recent as the 80's, at least the finns had the excuse of having the swastika before the war.
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48034889]Depends on why you want it and how you plan to use it.[/QUOTE] But that is up to the person, not the object. Anything can be miss-used, and people buying things like this should be aware that without context it can offend people. Anything can be offensive if the person in possession of it missuses it.
I bought my dad an authentic Hitler support badge from the 30's from an antique store because we both fucking love history. Doesn't mean we're both nazi's.
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