[QUOTE=Thechuz1337;48034948]I bought my dad an authentic Hitler support badge from the 30's from an antique store because we both fucking love history. Doesn't mean we're both nazi's.[/QUOTE]
That's a genuine piece from waaay back when, though. You didn't buy it in support of the ideals behind it, you didn't buy it out of any misdirected sense of pride or as a memorial, you bought it because it has real historical significance, as a historian. Buying a freshly-made Confederate flag because "yer a reyudneck n proud" is entirely different.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034923]But that is up to the person, not the object. Anything can be miss-used, and people buying things like this should be aware that without context it can offend people. Anything can be offensive if the person in possession of it missuses it.[/QUOTE]
There's a ruthless gang in Houston that uses the Houston Astros baseball team logo as their logo, tattooing it to their neck.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034923]But that is up to the person, not the object. Anything can be miss-used, and people buying things like this should be aware that without context it can offend people. Anything can be offensive if the person in possession of it missuses it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's what I'm saying though, I am all for memorabilia since it's part of history, and there is no real way for the seller to check what will happen with the flag.
The thing I was arguing though is that symbols are a powerful thing, and in my opinion symbols with racist ideologies behind them shouldn't be used in a way to exhibit those beliefs.
The only people I disagree with in this thread are those that imply a flag is just a piece of cloth.
It comes down to what you think is more important.
Personally, I think the reason someone is up to them and solely theirs, not what someone else thinks of it or thinks why they're doing it, and more often than not, most people are flying it for the simple reason of "I like the South."
Mostly anything else is coming from the feelings someone else has attached to the flag for one reason or another. And the flagbearer has no moral responsibility or duty to give a shit about the feelings someone else who has decided to think that they're flying it for the reasons that fit their own point of view so they can feel superior or vindicated in their beliefs or whatever.
There's a a huge difference between wanting to own the Confederate flag as memorabilia, putting it in a museum, using it for historical reasons, or whatever other sensible reason and actually still actively flying it on a flag pole, or wearing it on merchandise, or thinking that it's anything other than a symbol of racism in the year 2015.
Nobody is going to think you're a piece of shit for buying a replica Nazi flag for collectors purposes, but if you put that shit on a flag pole or wear it on your clothes, you're trash.
It's the same thing. There is absolutely no good reason to still actively fly a confederate flag, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't be allowed to own one.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;48035016]It comes down to what you think is more important.
Personally, I think the reason someone is up to them and solely theirs, not what someone else thinks of it or thinks why they're doing it, and more often than not, most people are flying it for the simple reason of "I like the South."
Mostly anything else is coming from the feelings someone else has attached to the flag for one reason or another. And the flagbearer has no moral responsibility or duty to give a shit about the feelings someone else who has decided to think that they're flying it for the reasons that fit their own point of view so they can feel superior or vindicated in their beliefs or whatever.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, for most it has a different meaning today, as you said, "I love the south."
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;48035023]There's a a huge difference between wanting to own the Confederate flag as memorabilia, putting it in a museum, using it for historical reasons, or whatever other sensible reason and actually still actively flying it on a flag pole, or wearing it on merchandise, or thinking that it's anything other than a symbol of racism in the year 2015.
Nobody is going to think you're a piece of shit for buying a replica Nazi flag for collectors purposes, but if you put that shit on a flag pole or wear it on your clothes, you're trash.
It's the same thing. There is absolutely no good reason to still actively fly a confederate flag.[/QUOTE]
You can fly it because it's been adopted as a symbol of "I like being Southern" and hasn't been used widely by any racially, or even politically motivated group since the start of the civil rights movement at the most recent, and that is still drawing very thin lines considering it was never a banner for anti-integration or anything similar aside from a few people flying it here or there at rallies.
The reason people fly an object means more than the feelings someone else has attached to it. Now, you can say "It's the same thing with the Nazi flag", but the Nazi flag has been used almost exclusively as a statement of political ideology or race issues, not really as a symbol of "I like being German", as the confederate flag has. Despite what you may think it originally flew for, the meaning has changed, just like with millions of other things from historical periods.
And so they'll just use the First National Flag instead of the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/vZbYoPx.png[/t]
I got hate a while back for owning one of these. Even some of my black friends love the guitar. I don't understand the hate some people have over the confederate flag.
[IMG]http://people.tamu.edu/~carolynmoore1/rebel.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=evilweazel;48035054]You can fly it because it's been adopted as a symbol of "I like being Southern" and hasn't been used widely by any racially, or even politically motivated group since the start of the civil rights movement at the most recent, and that is still drawing very thin lines considering it was never a banner for anti-integration or anything similar aside from a few people flying it here or there at rallies.
The reason people fly an object means more than the feelings someone else has attached to it. Now, you can say "It's the same thing with the Nazi flag", but the Nazi flag has been used almost exclusively as a statement of political ideology or race issues, not really as a symbol of "I like being German", as the confederate flag has. Despite what you may think it originally flew for, the meaning has changed, just like with millions of other things from historical periods.[/QUOTE]
Both the battle flag and the nazi flag are widely used by the KKK and white supremists
[QUOTE=OvB;48035088]Both the battle flag and the nazi flag are widely used by the KKK and white supremists[/QUOTE]
And in Germany, where the swastika is illegal, they use Imperial German symbols, which have no racist history at all, but have come to be associated with it thanks to the neo-Nazis. That doesn't mean those symbols should be banned or vilified.
The CSA's battle flag is not inherently racist anymore than the US flag is inherently racist. Racist beliefs were commonplace at the time that it was flown on both sides, but the flag isn't representative of those.
[QUOTE=OvB;48035088]Both the battle flag and the nazi flag are widely used by the KKK and white supremists[/QUOTE]
The difference is the Nazi flag is used almost exclusively if not always as a statement of political ideology, as far as I know, and has never been used in any mass amount as just an "I'm proud to be German." It is used by the people flying it solely as a banner of hate.
The Confederate Battle Flag has been used as a general "I'm southern" kind of thing MUCH more often (I'm assuming at least) than some fringe groups have used it to state how much they hate blacks, thats why I think its not exactly right to assume anyone flying one is using it to state any ideological allegiance, as opposed to the nazi flag. So it's generally, aside from a few extremist groups, used as just a symbol of liking being from a particular place and being proud of it.
Which group you thinks represents the flag more, or the feelings you have on the flag, are up to you, I guess. But assuming that someone is racist based on the small group of people using it as a racially motivated flag seems wrong to me when there is a HUGE group using it for just a southern pride thing.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48034875]Uh, Soviet flags are definitely used to mourn Red Army soldiers. For German war deaths in WW2 the Balkenkreuz is used because that is the real symbol of the Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe graves bear Luftwaffe's symbols (including the swastika) and SS graves that haven't been vandalized have SS insignia.
I understand there is historical documentation showing that slavery was very important in the minds of many Confederate leaders, but I am telling you that a warlike nation is nothing without an army to make war with, and that slavery was not a concern in the minds of the soldiers.[/QUOTE]
I understand that but the little reason every soldier was fighting for is small and petty compared to what at the end of the day they all fought for, if someone wants to remember the individual soldiers of their state then it would be in a lot more taste to use a state flag to remember that states history and more importantly the individual people as it's more personal.
Sure you can use a confederate flag if you want to represent the soldiers but at the same time it's representing the leaders and their reasons for succession which obviously a big point was slavery. You can obviously go down that route and claim your just representing the soldiers who fought and died but others are going to look at it as tasteless and look at you supporting the grand overall ideas of the confederacy as that's what flags are for, to represent the state and its ideals as a whole.
Just stick with something tasteful and more personal as a state flag and let the confederate flag die and just stand as a historic symbol, especially when it's still used as a racist symbol.
[QUOTE=ghost901;48035081]I got hate a while back for owning one of these. Even some of my black friends love the guitar. I don't understand the hate some people have over the confederate flag.[/QUOTE]
Because who cares that you had some of your black friends think it looks cool? they obviously know you and know you aren't racist but what does it say to other people that don't know you? Someone linked an article in the thread somewhere about some black guy hanging the flag in his dorm room because he viewed it as southern pride but if you go further into the article it mentions the guys parents who lived through the civil rights era and suprise suprise they disapproved greatly.
Sure a lot of symbols of hatred look cool but they still carry their meanings and are still used for their original meanings I don't get why that's hard to understand?
[QUOTE=bobsynergy;48035151]I understand that but the little reason every soldier was fighting for is small and petty compared to what at the end of the day they all fought for, if someone wants to remember the individual soldiers of their state then it would be in a lot more taste to use a state flag to remember that states history and more importantly the individual people as it's more personal.
Sure you can use a confederate flag if you want to represent the soldiers but at the same time it's representing the leaders and their reasons for succession which obviously a big point was slavery. You can obviously go down that route and claim your just representing the soldiers who fought and died but others are going to look at it as tasteless and look at you supporting the grand overall ideas of the confederacy as that's what flags are for, to represent the state and its ideals as a whole.
Just stick with something tasteful and more personal as a state flag and let the confederate flag die and just stand as a historic symbol, especially when it's still used as a racist symbol.
Because who cares that you had some of your black friends think it looks cool? they obviously know you and know you aren't racist but what does it say to other people that don't know you? Someone linked an article in the thread somewhere about some black guy hanging the flag in his dorm room because he viewed it as southern pride but if you go further into the article it mentions the guys parents who lived through the civil rights era and suprise suprise they disapproved greatly.
Sure a lot of symbols of hatred look cool but they still carry their meanings and are still used for their original meanings I don't get why that's hard to understand?[/QUOTE]
Meanings change.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48035116]And in Germany, where the swastika is illegal, they use Imperial German symbols, which have no racist history at all, but have come to be associated with it thanks to the neo-Nazis. That doesn't mean those symbols should be banned or vilified.
The CSA's battle flag is not inherently racist anymore than the US flag is inherently racist. Racist beliefs were commonplace at the time that it was flown on both sides, but the flag isn't representative of those.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=evilweazel;48035136]The difference is the Nazi flag is used almost exclusively if not always as a statement of political ideology, as far as I know, and has never been used in any mass amount as just an "I'm proud to be German." It is used by the people flying it solely as a banner of hate.
The Confederate Battle Flag has been used as a general "I'm southern" kind of thing MUCH more often (I'm assuming at least) than some fringe groups have used it to state how much they hate blacks, thats why I think its not exactly right to assume anyone flying one is using it to state any ideological allegiance, as opposed to the nazi flag. So it's generally, aside from a few extremist groups, used as just a symbol of liking being from a particular place and being proud of it.
Which group you thinks represents the flag more, or the feelings you have on the flag, are up to you, I guess. But assuming that someone is racist based on the small group of people using it as a racially motivated flag seems wrong to me when there is a HUGE group using it for just a southern pride thing.[/QUOTE]
So wait, to follow this logic, flying a Confederate flag is okay because modern connotation has apparently changed to "southern pride" but we shouldn't vilify the Imperial German symbols because their modern connotation has been changed by Neo-Nazis?
Can't have both, if we're to remember the Imperial German symbols as they stood in origin regardless of what the Neo-Nazis want the symbols to be, then we should logically also remember the Confederate flag as the symbol of racism it was made to be regardless of this modern "southern pride" movement.
[editline]banana[/editline]
Also, define modern because it was actively used in racist tones as recently as the 1960s civil rights movement, as well as for some time after.
I think it'd be worse to use a state flag in the case that your state was overtly in support of the institution of slavery, whereas the CSA as a governing body left it up to the individual state.
I don't really see why we need to be arguing about the morality of a flag. I'm more concerned with why it apparently needs to be banned.
Personally I think using confederate flags in anything other than for historic purposes is tacky and dumb but outright banning it is just silly.
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;48035175]So wait, to follow this logic, flying a Confederate flag is okay because modern connotation has apparently changed to "southern pride" but we shouldn't vilify the Imperial German symbols because their modern connotation has been changed by Neo-Nazis?
Can't have both, if we're to remember the Imperial German Symbols as they stood in origin regardless of what the Neo-Nazis want the symbols to be, then we should logically also remember the Confederate flag as the symbol of racism it was made to be regardless of this modern "southern pride" movement.
[editline]banana[/editline]
Also, define modern because it was actively used in racist tones as recently as the 1960 civil rights movement, as well as some time after.[/QUOTE]
I didn't use the word modern or imply that the meaning has ever changed. The battle flag is not and was not representative of slavery. Slavery took place in the CSA but the battle flag represents the soldiers' interests. The soldiers were not concerned with slavery.
This entire time I've been saying that the importance of slavery as a catalyst for the Civil War is dramatically overrepresented. I don't agree with downplaying it as an issue, because it certainly was, but people who say "the Civil War happened because of slavery" are outright wrong, and the Confederate flag doesn't represent any particular opinion on the matter, because the Confederacy's central body was neutral on the matter, leaving it up to the states to decide for themselves, and also because the average Confederate citizen neither owned slaves nor benefited from others owning slaves. The primary concern of the average Confederate (the majority of them) was underrepresentation in a federal government they did not support when the nation was formed. They expressed concerns about the federal government during the formation of the nation, and their fears came to pass, so they bailed.
On top of the official stance of the CSA's small central government being officially neutral, many or most of its leaders were personally opposed to the practice, but wanted to scale it down gradually to not wreck the economy. To them the North wanting to ban it outright and immediately was a threat to both their own ability to decide themselves but also economic stability at a time when they were already moving to mechanize the economy and remove slavery from the equation. I have no doubt it would have been outlawed by the 1870s, Civil War or otherwise, with assistance from the Union's manufacturing base.
The slaveowners, of course, were pro-slavery. But they were not a majority in government, let alone society at large, nor did they own slaves out of a sense of duty to possess black people. They were just amoral, awful people and they would have enslaved anyone of any color if it was legal to do so.
So again... painting the battle flag as strictly a symbol of racism and hatred, when it was no more such on its own than the Union flag of the period, is simply revisionism. It's nonsense. It was then, and is currently, a symbol of Southern pride, unity and independence from a governing body that did not have their interests in mind. That is why there are, today, blacks who fly the Confederate flag.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48035163]Meanings change.[/QUOTE]
Cool call me when the swastika goes back to being a Buddhist symbol or to whatever it was before that, meanings change but when they are still used to represent their original meanings then they still haven't obviously changed.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48035176]I think it'd be worse to use a state flag in the case that your state was overtly in support of the institution of slavery, whereas the CSA as a governing body left it up to the individual state.[/QUOTE]
Like it was quoted in that AskHistorians post I linked the states made it clear they want slavery to stay but yeah your right it's complicated but at least the state flag is more personal and no one would view it as racist? (Correct me on that if I'm wrong because I'm not sure of the view of state flags in America/the Southern States)
Nobody I've met that has worn a Confederate flag on an article of clothing or emblazoned it on their shitty truck has ever been a likeable person so I'm okay with this.
At least a state flag could honor every soldier that has ever been brought up in the state and fought in a war, be it the civil war or overseas.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48035116]And in Germany, where the swastika is illegal, they use Imperial German symbols, which have no racist history at all, but have come to be associated with it thanks to the neo-Nazis. That doesn't mean those symbols should be banned or vilified.
The CSA's battle flag is not inherently racist anymore than the US flag is inherently racist. Racist beliefs were commonplace at the time that it was flown on both sides, but the flag isn't representative of those.[/QUOTE]
People are this outraged over a damn flag, could you imagine if the US just straight up banned the confederate flag
[QUOTE=Code3Response;48035359]People are this outraged over a damn flag, could you imagine if the US just straight up banned the confederate flag[/QUOTE]
Considering that would be a gross offense to the Constitution I can imagine that there'd be a big stink to say the least.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;48035359]People are this outraged over a damn flag, could you imagine if the US just straight up banned the confederate flag[/QUOTE]
The US will never get around to that, it's not really allowed anyway. If they did, there would be a huge uproar.
Is Lynyrd Skynyrd racist too?
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034783]I was pointing out the fact that the post labeled the civil war as only white people trying to suppress black people, which while slavery was a major factor, was not the only cause of the civil war. You are stereotyping as much as the post I was replying to was.[/QUOTE]
Well, it was, actually the cause for the civil war. Like, the primary cause. Like, if there was not an issue over slavery, or no slavery to begin with, there would not have been a civil war. The only reason states rights was a thing was because of the South's determination for incoming states to determine their status as free of slave states unrestricted. The only reason nullification was a thing was because the South wanted to pretend like they never signed the Constitution and surrendered their state sovereignty, so they had a "legal reason" to prevent national restrictions on slavery. The only reason that there was a political conflict was because the South continuously acted in such an aggressively hardline manner over slavery and even given their over-inflated representation (due to their bitchfit over representation and slavery during the Constitution's creation) that they forced a divide and lost the election because of it.
It was, in fact, the base for the superstructure of all the arguments for secession and all the political conflicts therein.
[QUOTE=BLOB Fish Dude;48034242]I understand the Confederate flag has other meanings besides racism just like the Nazi insignia but that doesn't mean you should wave either of them around. They both have a MAIN symbol which is racism, the other symbols don't excuse someone who claims to not be racist[/QUOTE]
Funny you say that, the Lafayette Square building in Buffalo, NY still has swastikas scattered on the floor since it was built before Hitler's rise to power.
[editline]23rd June 2015[/editline]
Meant to say the Ellicott Square building...
[img]http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/e4/cc/12/ellicott-square-building.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=GravyKing;48035706]Funny you say that, the Lafayette Square building in Buffalo, NY still has swastikas scattered on the floor since it was built before Hitler's rise to power.[/QUOTE]
Ok, how does that matter? The flag clearly stood for the Confederacy and the South, no one is using it to mean something before the Confederacy. Obviously symbols sometimes change meaning over time, but if a symbol was invented for one purpose and continues to represent that, or aspects of that, to the point where there is an active debate, then clearly the symbol was not grandfathered in meaning something else.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];48035729']Ok, how does that matter? The flag clearly stood for the Confederacy and the South, no one is using it to mean something before the Confederacy. Obviously symbols sometimes change meaning over time, but if a symbol was invented for one purpose and continues to represent that, or aspects of that, to the point where there is an active debate, then clearly the symbol was not grandfathered in meaning something else.[/QUOTE]
Just an interesting fact, that's it.
I'm sure the people in my neighborhood will be upset at any rate. So many people here got Confederate flags hanging on the walls of their garage (everyone here seems to convert their garage in to a constantly open den)
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