[QUOTE=Pascall;48034421]What are the "non-racist" uses for owning a confederate flag?
Like I'm actually curious because I have never met someone down here who has owned a confederate flag and wasn't, at the very least, prone to low key racism.[/QUOTE]
I know some people who use it to express "southern pride" and a fair amount of historians collect confederate memorabilia since for one, its become very rare due to the destruction of confederate items because people believe it to only be racist, when a large part of the civil-war had to do with state's rights and the power struggle between north and south.
Amazon, Wal Mart, and Google have removed Confederate Flag items from search results and stores now also.
[editline]23rd June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;48036147]when a large part of the civil-war had to do with state's rights and the power struggle between north and south.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
You cant race all arguments that started the war back to slavery. Specifically there would be no will for states' rights at the time without the want to nullify federal law to maintain slavery and allow for new states to choose their slave-owning status themselves. It was a thinly veiled attempt to maintain the expansion of slavery and promote the slave society.
[QUOTE=flamehead5;48035443]Is Lynyrd Skynyrd racist too?[/QUOTE]
Lately the pattern seems to be: If you have to ask "Is _____ offensive?", the answer is "yes".
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48034353]
You don't see too many black people fly this flag do you?
[/QUOTE]
Actually I have a black friend from Louisiana who owns a ton of Confederate flag stuff.
Plus he usually carries out units flag and I've met more black Confederate reenactors than I have black Union reenactors.
Most of them just don't really care.
I live in the North, but not everyone in the North thinks the way I do. I'd like to add that as a disclaimer, because I absolutely hate the Confederacy. In my eyes, they were nothing more than a group of firebrand secessionists hell-bent on seeing my country destroyed just because they didn't get their way, and I absolutely love the fact that Sherman burnt Georgia to the ground, destroying civilian and military property alike. The Confederacy is nothing more than a failure, and it should be regarded as such, which is why I don't understand why people still think it's relevant. Despite my vitriol in those previous statements, I do believe that people, if they so choose, can choose to accept and even embrace their Confederate heritage, no matter how much I disagree in it - after all, that's what the United States of America stands for: the freedom to do things that I don't necessarily like or support. So, while I think that the Confederacy is better off being a pile of ashes, [b]I would never go so far as to tell someone how to express their roots. That's why I think that banning the sale of Confederate paraphernalia is intrinsically anti-American.[/b]
I'd also like to point out that the flag typically considered "Confederate" - the Stars and Bars - is actually the battle standard for the Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate flag is completely different. And, while I see the Stars and Bars representing nothing more than a marauding horde of profligate barbarians who wanted to see my country split in half, I still wouldn't agree with someone who wanted to ban its sale.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48034431]Did you not pay attention in history cla-
[img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/gb.png[/img]
Slavery was one of many points in the civil war, but it was not the only one. Tax, trade, and commerce were also some of the issues in the war. Slavery was just the most notable reason, as it would affect all the areas I listed.[/QUOTE]
Personally I think the fact that slavery was the most notable reason is awfully telling.
The X pattern was used on the national flag as a square shape in the canton with a large white area, and toward the end they added a red stripe on the right, so it was in a sense part of the national flag. To say it wasn't in any capacity is wrong, but the popular rectangular full-field pattern flown is the battle flag representing the troops, which is close to the national flag, but it isn't quite.
I'm sorry, but whenever I see a pickup truck decked out in confederate flags I just start losing my shit laughing. It's just something about it that just seems so unusual.
[T]http://i.imgur.com/zPXFsCp.png[/T]
[QUOTE=TankMan;48037140]It's not the national Confederate flag. It's a battle flag that was adopted shortly after the war began, and was flown by the military.
It never served as a national flag of the greater confederacy, only as a standard for the army to rally around. A symbol of the South as a separate cultural group within the US, apart from the union (states rights of course), to which the men in the military could take heart from. The flag itself has no racist imagery. Red represents valor, white represents purity, blue represents justice. The X is the cross of St. Andrew (like the Scottish flag) who was admired at the time. The stars represent the states in the confederacy, less to begin with, more later.
The reason it was adopted is because the Confederate national flag and Union national flag looked very similar at a distance, and so caused battlefield confusion between the sides. There were three national Confederate flags, none of which are the one one in question. First is the "Stars and Bars" (see pic), which is what people often wrongly call the Rebel flag. The second was the "Stainless Banner." The third was the "Bloodstained Banner." I'm sure you can guess when those were adopted based on the names. It survived as a symbol of the bravery of those who fought for the South in the war and during the war as a symbol of home to the soldiers, of the people they were fighting for. It was even used in WWII, by units with a heavy Southern makeup. That's because it was a symbol for the South, not racism.
[B]The only way to view it as a "racist flag" is for someone who has no understanding of what they're looking at (apparently common) and to assume that it represents what it does not.[/B] You can't protect someone from actively offending themselves with their own ignorance, and so removing it in an effort to cater to them is ridiculous. The current U.S. flag is more of a racist symbol, among other things, than the Rebel flag. The British flag even more so.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg/500px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg.png[/img]
This is not the Nazi flag. It's a battle flag that was adopted shortly before the war began, and was flown by the military.
It never served as a national flag of the greater Reich, only as a standard for the army to rally around. A symbol of Germany as a separate cultural group within Europe, to which the men in the military could take heart from. The flag itself has no racist imagery. Red represents valor, white represents purity, black represents justice. The 卐 is the swastika of Indo-Aryan mythology (like the Jainist flag) which was admired at the time.
The reason it was adopted is because the German national flag and Soviet national flag looked very similar at a distance, and so caused battlefield confusion between the sides. There were three national German flags, none of which are the one one in question. First is the "Nationalflagge", which is what people often wrongly call the Empire flag. The second was the "Eisernes Kreuz Flagge." The third was the "Parteiflagge." I'm sure you can guess when those were adopted based on the names. It survived as a symbol of the bravery of those who fought for Germany in the war and during the war as a symbol of home to the soldiers, of the people they were fighting for. It was even used in Eastern Europe, by units with a heavy German makeup. That's because it was a symbol for Germany, not racism.
The only way to view it as a "racist flag" is for someone who has no understanding of what they're looking at (apparently common) and to assume that it represents what it does not. You can't protect someone from actively offending themselves with their own ignorance, and so removing it in an effort to cater to them is ridiculous. The current German is more of a racist symbol, among other things, than the war flag. The British flag even more so.
Symbols can stand for multiple things, and it's hard to erase a prominent past meaning. The Confederate flag can stand for southern pride if enough people make it so, but it's still going to have the connotation of promoting racism.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];48037434'][img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg/500px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg.png[/img]
This is not the Nazi flag. It's a battle flag that was adopted shortly before the war began, and was flown by the military.
It never served as a national flag of the greater Reich, only as a standard for the army to rally around. A symbol of Germany as a separate cultural group within Europe, to which the men in the military could take heart from. The flag itself has no racist imagery. Red represents valor, white represents purity, black represents justice. The 卐 is the swastika of Indo-Aryan mythology (like the Jainist flag) which was admired at the time.
The reason it was adopted is because the German national flag and Soviet national flag looked very similar at a distance, and so caused battlefield confusion between the sides. There were three national German flags, none of which are the one one in question. First is the "Nationalflagge", which is what people often wrongly call the Empire flag. The second was the "Eisernes Kreuz Flagge." The third was the "Parteiflagge." I'm sure you can guess when those were adopted based on the names. It survived as a symbol of the bravery of those who fought for Germany in the war and during the war as a symbol of home to the soldiers, of the people they were fighting for. It was even used in Eastern Europe, by units with a heavy German makeup. That's because it was a symbol for Germany, not racism.
The only way to view it as a "racist flag" is for someone who has no understanding of what they're looking at (apparently common) and to assume that it represents what it does not. You can't protect someone from actively offending themselves with their own ignorance, and so removing it in an effort to cater to them is ridiculous. The current German is more of a racist symbol, among other things, than the war flag. The British flag even more so.[/QUOTE]
You actually had a passable (if misled) argument until this
[QUOTE=Radical Rebel;48037339]I'm sorry, but whenever I see a pickup truck decked out in confederate flags I just start losing my shit laughing. It's just something about it that just seems so unusual.
[T]http://i.imgur.com/zPXFsCp.png[/T][/QUOTE]
Why would you fly a Confederate naval jack with a bunch of Yankee flags?
Fucking Yanks.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48037541]You actually had a passable (if misled) argument until this[/QUOTE]
Then let me make it clearer.
In short, it doesn't matter if the flag is a military symbol or not, it was a political symbol of a military for a nation that existed by, for, because of, and entirely due to slavery.
1. The South's entire economy was built around slavery and the slave market at the time
2. The South had political advantage due to slavery and was not going to give that up- the 3/5 clause came about due to the hostaging of the Constitution during the conventions. The South had inflated representation compared to non-slave states.
3. The South needed a greater number of slave states to disperse an overcrowded slave population and an over-saturating market
4. The South had a complex cultural identity built around class and race. The bottom rung of both was the slave, which was owned by the highest the aristocratic planter. The middle classes were yeomen and free whites, both of which were kept only slightly better off through the slave economy. At the time, the entire cultural identity of the South was either that of the slave or that of the white slave-owners. White were convinced to support planters- in part through property and gender arguments- and before then the link was based completely on the fraternity of white men who weren't black. Southern culture? At the time the flag was flown in purpose, Southern culture was that of the racist. Contrast it to the next two-three decades after the destruction of the planter class, where poor whites more closely identified with poor blacks as a economic class interest. They weren't flying any Confederate flags then. At least not until the Red Shirts.
5. The argument of states' rights is entirely a fabrication of the SR movement in the 60s-80s, and entirely revisionist. The South [i]was not concerned[/i] with the concept of states rights as it is understood today- while they reserved that the Ninth & Tenth Amendments granted the states some authority in the federation, the actual Southern argument was about [i]state sovereignty[/i] and [i]nullification[/i], both of which were asinine assumptions that came directly out of rejection of the Union and the Constitution. The former argument was that the states were separate political entities that had total sovereignty as independent countries who could at any time secede from the US to protect their interests, because states existed prior to the Constitution and the Union and could exist separately from them. This was, of course, false legally speaking because all existing states abolished their sovereignty upon signing the Constitution, therefore transferring them from autonomous entities to governmental administrations within the federation. This argument over which came first and which was supreme was the reason why it was a Confederacy as opposed to a Federation. As a side note, this entire argument is completely hypocritical, because the Southern states straight up agreed to the federalism argument only if they got extra representation, which they got through the 3/5 Clause. The latter argument- nullification- rested on the premise of the former, and basically said that since states are sovereign, they can act contrary to the federation at will and not act to and nullify federal law. In short, the South's argument wasn't states' rights, the South's argument was "We're only part of the Union when we feel like it".
6. The South only enacted those arguments to protect the institution and economy of slavery. The entire reason for supporting these arguments was so that A) the South could ignore federal law that limited slavery and B) new states could open themselves to slavery regardless of their free or slave state status as mandated by federal law. The protection of the institution of slavery and the slave economy was essential for the class and economic structure of the South. Almost all Southern politicians were of the planter class, slaveowners whose health, lives, and social standing was maintained by the health of the slave economy. Should slavery either bust- which was a real concern given the slave population and the market at the time- slaves become too concentrated- again, a real concern causing fear of revolt- or the slave system altogether collapse, then so would the highest class of individuals who ran the South.
So which Southern culture is it representing? Is it the culture of blacks who were enslaved at the time? The culture of yeomen, who lived miserable lives in poverty working private plots of land for family subsistence? The culture of the white middle class, who had no control of economy and were working in conditions of poverty themselves or were moderately wealthy through business sanctioned by the planters and maintained through the product of slavery?
Or was it the culture of the white middle class after the Fusion/Populist era, who terrorized blacks through the system of White Supremacy and maintained a system of sharecropping that was almost identical to the system of slavery? The white working class, who still turned their backs to the planters and the middle class as they and their children were forced into the new industry of the South and voted Republican because they knew it was a raw deal? Or how about the vast majority of whites throughout the rest of the history of the South until the last four decades, who were overtly racist, maintained a system of segregation, promoted and maintained White Supremacy, and continued to arrest, kill, and lynch blacks well into the late 70s and early 80s? I assure you that the only people waving that flag were those who identified Southern culture with white supremacy, and that's exactly what that flag meant at the time. At every rally and counter-protest against civil rights, it was the rebel flag. At every rally for states' rights in reaction to SCOTUS and federal decisions to end discrimination, the rebel flag was flown. You know where it wasn't flown? In the mills where the poor worked, in the ghettos and the sharecropping plantations, or in the windows or shops owned or worked by blacks.
In short, the South's history with the flag is inherently tied and tainted by slavery and white supremacy. Southern cultural identification of the flag goes back less than four decades, and even then the racist connotations to Southern culture are still not entirely gone. The flag is still used racially today, as it was two and four decades ago, as it was in areas of town that meant "no niggers allowed" and the shops that meant "whites only", with the states rightists who until the 80s chanted "no integrated schools" alongside "power to the states", with the Klan who used it as a symbol as they were beating blacks to death and by their allies who made it their political goal to promote white supremacy in the South, with terrorists like the Red Shirts who flew the flag as they burned black villages and homes, and by rich landowners who still flew the flag the moment federal troops left the South and who worked to re-created the system of slavery. There is a direct link, never ending, never re-purposed, between the flag now from when it was first used, as a symbol of the military of a white supremacist regime that existed by slavery, that fought for slavery, and that should have died with slavery.
This thread is hilarious. I've only seen one or two people really touch on what the context of the rebel flag is today. That context is rebellion, southern pride, and rejection of authority/freedom.
The funny part is, the only reason the context hasn't changed anywhere else but here in the south is that people flat out refuse to accept that it's context can change, even though the context of the US flag has changed over the years, AND the context of the rebel flag has changed in the southern half of the country already.
If you want to keep thinking it still stands for racism because a few fuckheads decide to use it that way, go ahead and stick your head in the sand and keep denying reality. Because the reality is that it's context HAS changed, and the only people who can't see this are ones who don't want to see it.
This is such a stupid issue. Let people buy what they want and sell what they want, who gives a shit. Someone buying a confederate flag isn't going to go out and murder people because "the flag made me do it." And people aren't racist because they own a flag.
Most of Facepunch is completely against the banning of violent/racist/sexist video games as video games don't make you violent/racist/sexist, but if it's a flag that "promotes" violence/racism well then by golly go ahead and ban it! Do you see the doublethink here?
Symbolism is different for everyone. Some people see that flag as racism incarnate and others see it as southern pride. Some people see games like Call of Duty as murder simulators that will train our children to be spree shooters and the people who own them as walking time bombs, and some see it as harmless fun and the people who own them as video gamers. Some people see the Holy Cross as a symbol of Jesus' suffering and compassion and others see it as a symbol to be burned on the lawn of a black person to show hate.
It's kind of stupid that Wal-Mart, Ebay, and other stores won't sell this stuff anymore and its really shallow. People got pissed when GTA:SA was pulled out of Wal-Mart but no one bats an eye at a confederate flag. You can buy guns at Wal-Mart but confederate flags aren't okay.
The only thing these stores are doing is losing business because of this. There's plenty more rednecks who will boycott a Walmart over the flag removal than people that will boycott it over the flag still being sold because guess what? The former is usuing Wal-Mart a lot more than the latter is.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48037790] If you want to keep thinking it still stands for racism because a few fuckheads decide to use it that way, go ahead and stick your head in the sand and keep denying reality. Because the reality is that it's context HAS changed, and the only people who can't see this are ones who don't want to see it.[/QUOTE]
By a few fuckheads you mean literally everybody up until a couple decades ago in its 155 year history?
I wonder why people get so angry about flying a flag that literally stood for the regime that enslaved an entire people. Might as well start flying the nazi flag and just say that it doesn't stand for the genocidal regime [I]for me[/I], it standards for my culture! Everyone else is just refusing to understand that its meaning has changed.
Also just so we're clear, I think banning it is stupid. Collecting historical memorabilia and heirlooms and such is great. I think sincerely flying it is pretty dumb though.
Stop with the Godwinning, it doesn't compare. Again, regardless of any politician or landowner the average Southerner was no more racist or pro-slavery than the average Northerner. That flag, the battle flag, represents the Southern everyman first and foremost. Everyone has acknowledged and agreed that slavery happened, that it was awful, and that racists abuse the flag. That doesn't change what [B]that flag[/B] stood for then or what it stands for now.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];48037816']By a few fuckheads you mean literally everybody up until a couple decades ago in its 155 year history?
I wonder why people get so angry about flying a flag that literally stood for the regime that enslaved an entire people. Might as well start flying the nazi flag and just say that it doesn't stand for the genocidal regime [I]for me[/I], it standards for my culture! Everyone else is just refusing to understand that its meaning has changed.
Also just so we're clear, I think banning it is stupid. Collecting historical memorabilia and heirlooms and such is great. I think sincerely flying it is pretty dumb though.[/QUOTE]
So, by your logic, the American Flag stands for slavery (also a regime that enslaved an entire people), genocide (can't forget those Native Americans), and bigotry (gay marriage was COMPLETELY banned up until recently). The context of a flag can't change right?
You can think it's dumb all you want. It's not going to stop the large amount of southerners OF ALL RACES from flying a flag that represents southern pride, rebellion, and rejection of authority. That's what it stands for down here, and what it's going to continue standing for down here. You can either accept that or not.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48037849]Stop with the Godwinning, it doesn't compare. Again, regardless of any politician or landowner the average Southerner was no more racist or pro-slavery than the average Northerner. That flag, the battle flag, represents the Southern everyman first and foremost. Everyone has acknowledged and agreed that slavery happened, that it was awful, and that racists abuse the flag. That doesn't change what [B]that flag[/B] stood for then or what it stands for now.[/QUOTE]
Well, actually, by the time the CW broke out most northerners had rejected slavery. Which is why, y'know, they banned slavery in the north. And, y'know, even given that Southern representation was inflated by the 3/5 clause, they were [I]still unable[/I] to prevent anti-slavery legislation, limitations on slavery, the ban on importation of slaves, and undo the free-state slave-state system. So I'd definitely argue that northerners were less pro-slavery than southerners, and further I'd also say there's an argument to be had that northerners were less racist, and practiced a different form of racism. While northerners saw blacks as stupid, they saw them as human. Southerners rejected the humanity of blacks, likening them to wild animals- literally sub-human- with no potential for human intelligence, requiring white care and oversight to live life and be guided. Later this would transform into blacks being wild, unable to control their thoughts and emotions, and would rape white women and be overly promiscuous- a conception of blacks that existed almost entirely in the South, which is why the majority of rapes and sex-related lynchings of blacks occurred in....guess! take a guess!
the South! What a surprise.
The flag was not a symbol of the Southern every-man until its usage as a states rights and anti-integration flag in the 40s-60s, when its usage as a symbol of southerners was equally as widespread as a symbol of a white-supremacist South. The flag never stood for the southern working class until then, and it never stood for blacks. What you really mean by it representing the "southern every-man" is that it stands for [u]white[/u] southerners. Who would have guessed? A flag that was born as a battle flag for maintaining slavery, carried on as a symbol for white supremacy, is today used to represent southern culture almost entirely for....white southerners!
:rolleye:
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48037913]You can think it's dumb all you want. It's not going to stop the large amount of southerners OF ALL RACES from flying a flag that represents southern pride, rebellion, and rejection of authority. That's what it stands for down here, and what it's going to continue standing for down here. You can either accept that or not.[/QUOTE]
who are you to claim that the meaning you give to the flag is the same this "large amount of southerners" use
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48037913]So, by your logic, the American Flag stands for slavery (also a regime that enslaved an entire people), genocide (can't forget those Native Americans), and bigotry (gay marriage was COMPLETELY banned up until recently). The context of a flag can't change right?
You can think it's dumb all you want. It's not going to stop the large amount of southerners OF ALL RACES from flying a flag that represents southern pride, rebellion, and rejection of authority. That's what it stands for down here, and what it's going to continue standing for down here. You can either accept that or not.[/QUOTE]
It does stand for those things. The US flag stands for its entire history, and for an existing nation with evolving conceptions of itself that still has internal debates on these issues. For some people, the US flag[I] still [/I]stands for those things as a flag of an occupying nation or oppressor. So yeah, the US flag does stand for those things. The difference is that many of those wronged by the US have integrated into it or adopted it as their own. You know why we're having a debate on the rebel flag right now? Because that's [i]clearly not the case[/i]. It is clearly [i]still controversial[/i]. For many more people it clearly is [i]still a symbol of racism[/i]. Also unlike the US flag, the rebel flag was born to represent racism. Like literally. The US flag was born to represent liberalism, which at the time and today was traditionally opposed to slavery. The rebel flag existed in an official status with only one meaning for everyone: pro-slavery. The US flag has many meaning based on your outlook and your time and your place, and has flown officially to oversee that. There are many ways you could argue that the US flag stands for this or that, but so much fewer ways you can accurately describe the rebel flag as meaning anything other than racism.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48037933]who are you to claim that the meaning you give to the flag is the same this "large amount of southerners" use[/QUOTE]
that's a last-ditch argument if I've ever seen one
sorry, "Who are you to claim the flag means these things to these people" is a stupid fucking argument while you yourself sit there and make claims as to the meaning of it
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48037952]sorry, "Who are you to claim the flag means these things to these people" is a stupid fucking argument while you yourself sit there and make claims as to the meaning of it[/QUOTE]
my claims are based on facts: that the main reason the war was waged is slavery (and every other motive can be traced back to it as well as seed eater clearly explained), and the flag is the main symbol associated with the side that promoted subjugation of an entire race.
the fact that it's associated with rebellion and southern pride as well doesn't make the flag's other symbolisms magically disappear, and claiming it does is ignoring the biggest reason why it exists in the first place, which is extremely disrespectful and ignorant
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48037933]who are you to claim that the meaning you give to the flag is the same this "large amount of southerners" use[/QUOTE]
You're right. What would a born and raised southerner know about the south? I never knew the swamps of Louisiana was really New York my entire life.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48037984]my claims are based on facts: that the main reason the war was waged is slavery (and every other motive can be traced back to it as well as seed eater clearly explained), and the flag is the main symbol associated with the side that promoted subjugation of an entire race.
the fact that it's associated with rebellion and southern pride as well doesn't make the flag's other symbolisms magically disappear, and claiming it does is ignoring the biggest reason why it exists in the first place, which is extremely disrespectful and ignorant[/QUOTE]
I never said those symbolisms "magically disappeared". I stated what it's flown for the vast majority of the time TODAY, meaning while it still has some bad associations to it (like every other flag), those associations mean as much to it now as genocide of the Native Americans means to the U.S. flag.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];48037935']It does stand for those things. The US flag stands for its entire history, and for an existing nation with evolving conceptions of itself that still has internal debates on these issues. For some people, the US flag[I] still [/I]stands for those things as a flag of an occupying nation or oppressor. So yeah, the US flag does stand for those things. The difference is that many of those wronged by the US have integrated into it or adopted it as their own. You know why we're having a debate on the rebel flag right now? Because that's [i]clearly not the case[/i]. It is clearly [i]still controversial[/i]. For many more people it clearly is [i]still a symbol of racism[/i]. Also unlike the US flag, the rebel flag was born to represent racism. Like literally. The US flag was born to represent liberalism, which at the time and today was traditionally opposed to slavery. The rebel flag existed in an official status with only one meaning for everyone: pro-slavery. The US flag has many meaning based on your outlook and your time and your place, and has flown officially to oversee that. There are many ways you could argue that the US flag stands for this or that, but so much fewer ways you can accurately describe the rebel flag as meaning anything other than racism.[/QUOTE]
You mean like how a very large portion of southern blacks have also adopted the rebel flag to represent southern pride and rejection of authority?
We will show those terrorists that they cant change us by making major changes and banning things. That will show them.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48037984]my claims are based on facts:[/QUOTE]
I would just like to point out that I find this funny
should we pressure paper mills to shut down if it's found out that racist propaganda was printed on their paper that they sold
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48038167]You're right. What would a born and raised southerner know about the south? I never knew the swamps of Louisiana was really New York my entire life. [/quote]
that's not what i'm saying at all quit trying to be snarky
unless mind reading is one of your southern powers i can't possibly see how you'd know exactly what these people are flying the flag for and that most of these "rebels" aren't just trying to save face when called out on being racist by saying the flag is all about southern pride
[quote]I never said those symbolisms "magically disappeared". I stated what it's flown for the vast majority of the time TODAY, meaning while it still has some bad associations to it (like every other flag), those associations mean as much to it now as genocide of the Native Americans means to the U.S. flag.[/QUOTE]
except the united states flag was meant to represent a country, it has no clear association with subjugation of native americans because that's not the reason why it was made. it was created to represent the country and its people, anything happening [I]in[/I] that country after it was already made is irrelevant to the original meaning of the flag, while the confederate flag was specifically created to represent a racist and oppressive government
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48038167]
You mean like how a very large portion of southern blacks have also adopted the rebel flag to represent southern pride and rejection of authority?[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
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