Mass Effect 3 Ending Scandel Makes Kevin Levine Sad - Polidicks

[QUOTE=thisispain;35226841]oh do you think they're paid by bioware to distract people?[/QUOTE] I didn't say anybody about people being paid, I just think the argument itself is pretty stupid.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226858]they bought my user title [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] keep posting without actually explaining yourself it really works[/QUOTE] I've had to explain the same points multiple times without you even mentioning them that's why and instead you just reply with some bullshit 'insert white-knight bioware statement here' even when it's absolutely moronic like stating the ending had some deeper and significant impact based on your choices when I referred to it as different colored explosions which isn't even an exaggeration mind you. How about rather then me elaborating how about you go ahead and do so, why were the endings so DEEP please do tell. I mean really.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35226904]so mass effect 3 is a consumer product, not art? does this extend to any videogame?[/QUOTE] It's both, actually. Video games are a collaborative effort requiring many artistic and technical talents, and the level of visual and storytelling artistry in the Mass Effect series is very high (save for a few aspects). [I]However[/I], it is still a consumer product at the end of the day. It's designed to sell. I have every right to complain when I find fault in a product, just as the manufacturer/developer has every right to ignore me if they so choose. I mean realistically, your argument sounds like we have no right to criticize the game because "It's what the author intended." Well, what they "intended" happens to be the opposite of what they sold it as, and that's beyond wrong. And what about glitches and other defects? Do we not have a right to complain about those?

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35226908]The mission content amounts to 400mb, the content of said character which is a pretty big part of said content mind you, can't have your nice character DLC without the character now can you. Therefore said content isn't exactly 400mb it's little under 15mb (or how big a character model + texture + animation etc is) with the rest of it they should have provided on the disc with the content that you purchased for the aforementioned reasons I explained.[/QUOTE] they spent time after they finished the main game to complete his mission so you could actually use him. they're not obligated to just give that content away. it would be nice, but the fact is the 15mb that is the character on disc is meaningless without the mission where you actually meet him and get to use him and so on. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35226944]It's both, actually. Video games are a collaborative effort requiring many artistic and technical talents, and the level of visual and storytelling artistry in the Mass Effect series is very high (save for a few aspects). [I]However[/I], it is still a consumer product at the end of the day. It's designed to sell. I have every right to complain when I find fault in a product, just as the manufacturer/developer has every right to ignore me if they so choose.[/QUOTE] movies are designed to sell too, it doesn't matter. it is still art. it's not a fault, it's something you didn't enjoy. it doesn't mean it is wrong or broken, it's just your opinion. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35226942]I've had to explain the same points multiple times without you even mentioning them that's why and instead you just reply with some bullshit 'insert white-knight bioware statement here' even when it's absolutely moronic like stating the ending had some deeper and significant impact based on your choices when I referred to it as different colored explosions which isn't even an exaggeration mind you. How about rather then me elaborating how about you go ahead and do so, why were the endings so DEEP please do tell. I mean really.[/QUOTE] well okay then.

[QUOTE=SystemGS;35226126]If I buy a dinner at a restaurant and that dinner is served as something completely different, I have a right to get a new dinner, as I'm paying for it. The same logic works with a game. If I have purchased Mass Effect 3 and the consensus is that the endings need to be redone, then listen to your fanbase. I respect Bioware as a company, but I will not stand by as one of my favorite game series is torn apart.[/QUOTE] Your analogy is horrid.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35226944][I]However[/I], it is still a consumer product at the end of the day. It's designed to sell. [/QUOTE] so a game's value is ultimately decided by its potential for sales? i hope you can see what kind of implications that has for videogames.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35226944]I have every right to complain when I find fault in a product, just as the manufacturer/developer has every right to ignore me if they so choose.[/QUOTE] You'd have every right to complain if it was totally free, anyway. That's how feedback and critique works. [QUOTE=thisispain;35226904]so mass effect 3 is a consumer product, not art? does this extend to any videogame?[/QUOTE] The video game industry is kind of at an awkward crossroads at the moment, I think. There are some developers that set out to create art, and then try to sell it, and there are some developers that set out to make money and then make a video game. The development of any one game in particular can be a mix of these two approaches, especially when you're dealing with a big money title. Art or not, though, ME3's ending sucked horse dick.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226668]it was still going to break down to having three choices that override everything you've done before.[/QUOTE] All thread you talk about how people are saying things they're not informed of, then you say this? How the fuck do you know this?

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35226944]I have every right to complain when I find fault in a product, just as the manufacturer/developer has every right to ignore me if they so choose. I mean realistically, your argument sounds like we have no right to criticize the game because "It's what the author intended." Well, what they "intended" happens to be the opposite of what they sold it as, and that's beyond wrong. And what about glitches and other defects? Do we not have a right to complain about those?[/QUOTE] How is the product the "opposite of what they sold it as,"? You have every right to complain about the lack of quality of a game.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35226975]so a game's value is ultimately decided by its potential for sales? i hope you can see what kind of implications that has for videogames.[/QUOTE] what he's saying is right the latest call of duty games for example, while art, are basically cash cows. they're works of art, made for sale to shrieky-voiced preteens.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226948]movies are designed to sell too, it doesn't matter. it is still art. it's not a fault, it's something you didn't enjoy. it doesn't mean it is wrong or broken, it's just your opinion. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. The flying dragons in Skyrim were not an "artistic statement," they were a goddamn fault. The animation glitches in Mass Effect 3 are just that, a glitch. Video games are not infallible and in the glorious age of widespread high-speed internet, video games actually have the power to change or fix what didn't work the first time. There is such a thing as objectively bad storytelling, and Mass Effect 3's ending is all but a textbook example of it. The game doesn't get to hide behind "Oh, well it's just our artistic vision so you can't say anything negative about it!"

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226948]they spent time after they finished the main game to complete his mission so you could actually use him. they're not obligated to just give that content away. it would be nice, but the fact is the 15mb that is the character on disc is meaningless without the mission where you actually meet him and get to use him and so on. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] movies are designed to sell too, it doesn't matter. it is still art. it's not a fault, it's something you didn't enjoy. it doesn't mean it is wrong or broken, it's just your opinion. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] well okay then.[/QUOTE] Which is why I bloody said to you that it's still bad practice for the 3 other reasons and not complaining about it lets companies realize it's commercially viable to continue down into even worse conduct. With more ridiculous DLC with increasingly inflated prices and like I said that isn't stupid fear-mongering that's basic business observation. Then when I replied with "Fuck me" you insulted me for not providing any meaningful debate, but the reason for me replying as such is because you didn't read anything I said.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35226979]All thread you talk about how people are saying things they're not informed of, then you say this? How the fuck do you know this?[/QUOTE] because you can read what the original writer planned for the endings. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35227011]Bullshit. The flying dragons in Skyrim were not an "artistic statement," they were a goddamn fault. The animation glitches in Mass Effect 3 are just that, a glitch. Video games are not infallible and in the glorious age of widespread high-speed internet, video games actually have the power to change or fix what didn't work the first time. There is such a thing as objectively bad storytelling, and Mass Effect 3's ending is all but a textbook example of it. The game doesn't get to hide behind "Oh, well it's just our artistic vision so you can't say anything negative about it!"[/QUOTE] there is a huuuuuge difference between gameplay issues and problems you have with the actual story of the game.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;35226998]How is the product the "opposite of what they sold it as,"? You have every right to complain about the lack of quality of a game.[/QUOTE] Sorry, that was a little bit of hyperbole. However in the case of the actual ending to the game, it holds true. Bioware explicitly said that (paraphrased) "We won't give you an A, B, C ending!" and "Your choices will matter, with wildly varying conclusions!" and "How could we possibly force everyone into a single ending that everyone gets?" Guess what? They gave us exactly that.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227014]there is a huuuuuge difference between gameplay issues and problems you have with the actual story of the game.[/QUOTE] So gameplay design isn't an art, or..?

[QUOTE=thisispain;35226975]so a game's value is ultimately decided by its potential for sales? i hope you can see what kind of implications that has for videogames.[/QUOTE] Why does it have to be one or the other with you? Video games are the result of many talented artists, AND it's a product.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35227012]Which is why I bloody said to you that it's still bad practice for the 3 other reasons and not complaining about it lets companies realize it's commercially viable to continue down into even worse conduct. With more ridiculous DLC with increasingly inflated prices and like I said that isn't stupid fear-mongering that's basic business observation. Then when I replied with "Fuck me" you insulted me for not providing any meaningful debate, but the reason for me replying as such is because you didn't read anything I said.[/QUOTE] not buying the games and actually doing something shows it is not commercially viable. Don't buy the DLC, don't buy the games, don't support the things you don't like. what more is there to it? [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sector 7;35227030]So gameplay design isn't an art, or..?[/QUOTE] of course it is, but no one is complaining about the gameplay, are they? If so, they are entirely different complaints which have no effect on one another [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] they have no effect on one another in this case, at least.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35227028]Sorry, that was a little bit of hyperbole. However in the case of the actual ending to the game, it holds true. Bioware explicitly said that (paraphrased) "We won't give you an A, B, C ending!" and "Your choices will matter, with wildly varying conclusions!" and "How could we possibly force everyone into a single ending that everyone gets?" Guess what? They gave us exactly that.[/QUOTE] First of all, the ending was more than A, B, or C. Secondly, the actual story and happenings of the ending are far more important than the actual visuals, although the visuals may have been disappointing.

for some reason this is all that I can think of when this discussion comes up [img]http://www.dvdactive.com/images/news/screenshot/2006/4/highlander2ser1artpic.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=hexpunK;35226902]So it's bad practise to save your users from having to download gigabytes of data just so that one character can be integrated into the storyline of the game? Okay, whatever you say. I personally would quite enjoy that as having to download gigs of DLC is a fucking nightmare on most Internet connections even today. People bought the disc expect Mass Effect 3, not any extra characters, no missions for the characters. Just Mass Effect 3. The DLC adds a new character, so what? It isn't plot critical, and from my understanding of the Mass Effect-verse, it would just provide a small bit if insight into one of the less seen races. Do you actually have an argument that can't be proven wrong by just thinking about it for more than a few seconds and doing research? I don't even intend to buy the game and I put the effort into seeing exactly what the on disc content was.[/QUOTE] Read my earlier posts bro, I wasn't reposting stuff for sake of brevity, and I'm fully aware of why [B]Bioware has stated[/B] the content was on the disc you don't need to berate me with it every second. Even if it is true it is still stupid DLC which like I said for the billionth time will only get more stupid if people don't actually not buy this shit. Also please bare in mind most of my anger here was based on the ending, the only reason I've had to continually elaborate on problems with the DLC is because you people keeping quoting me on it, it's making it look like the DLC is the biggest issue I have with the game which it clearly is the most minimal possible thing considering the abysmal ending (when they distinctly promised otherwise multiple times). I also stated earlier not complaining or acting against such DLC when it was bad for multiple reasons: -Day one DLC (is ridiclous even if content is not on the disc) -Produced on the same production cycle (bad business practice again), noted clearly by the leaked Prothean content. -Inflated prices for minimal content. I mean really minimal content, this is really want you want DLC to be right. All of the above three will only get worse the longer people like you keep allowing shit like this to fly.

I get that people are all worked up over a horrible ending (I haven't seen it yet), but what can you expect? You aren't guaranteed but a few things when buying a videogame. How shitty they decide to make a storyline is up to them, and if you decide to buy the game is up to you. Just because the previous games had good endings does not mean this one has to be greater than or equal to them.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;35227069]First of all, the ending was more than A, B, or C. Secondly, the actual story and happenings of the ending are far more important than the actual visuals, although the visuals may have been disappointing.[/QUOTE] You're right, it was R G B.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35226944]I mean realistically, your argument sounds like we have no right to criticize the game because "It's what the author intended."[/QUOTE] no that's what you inferred. not once did i say you can't criticize the game, that would make me a hypocrite considering my only posts in the mass effect thread since finishing the game have been fuck bioware piece of shit game. what i am talking about is rather how we look at the game. we seem to view the ending as some kind of mistake or flaw that should not have been there and that as a consumer you have the right to complain about them just as you have the right to complain about glitches. except glitches are not intentional and form no part of the artistic vision. the "consumer" is irrelevant when it comes to art because you are paying to enjoy an experience. if you don't enjoy it you can have your money back if you are dealing with a kind distributor (even though that's kind of like returning an album or movie after watching it and not liking it), but to suggest that as a consumer you have the rights to tell off the artistic intent because you paid for it has horrible implications. it makes it money-driven and anything money driven will be devoid of any chances because it has to play to the lowest common denominator. why do we wonder about why there's no innovation or creativity in video games? it's obvious to see why when a developer makes an extremely risky move for an ending. yes you can say it's just extremely bad but that is completely subjective, anything else suggests that certain qualities in a game have monetary value. "i paid for it therefor it should have the ending i desire".

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227014]because you can read what the original writer planned for the endings. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] there is a huuuuuge difference between gameplay issues and problems you have with the actual story of the game.[/QUOTE] Where did they say this And then comes the real question, why do I believe them over the other people in the company who EXPLICITY told us it would NOT end like that? Why is their statement more important than someone else saying the opposite? I just want to know why you know for a fact that the endings would be an ABC structure style when we were all told they wouldn't be

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227038]not buying the games and actually doing something shows it is not commercially viable. Don't buy the DLC, don't buy the games, don't support the things you don't like. what more is there to it?[/QUOTE] ...What exactly is your bottom line, here? People who purchased the game regret the purchase because of the game's ending (among other issues.) That is literally the whole 'reaction' everyone is talking about.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227084]no that's what you inferred. not once did i say you can't criticize the game, that would make me a hypocrite considering my only posts in the mass effect thread since finishing the game have been fuck bioware piece of shit game. what i am talking about is rather how we look at the game. we seem to view the ending as some kind of mistake or flaw that should not have been there and that as a consumer you have the right to complain about them just as you have the right to complain about glitches. except glitches are not intentional and form no part of the artistic vision. the "consumer" is irrelevant when it comes to art because you are paying to enjoy an experience. if you don't enjoy it you can have your money back if you are dealing with a kind distributor (even though that's kind of like returning an album or movie after watching it and not liking it), but to suggest that as a consumer you have the rights to tell off the artistic intent because you paid for it has horrible implications. it makes it money-driven and anything money driven will be devoid of any chances because it has to play to the lowest common denominator. why do we wonder about why there's no innovation or creativity in video games? it's obvious to see why when a developer makes an extremely risky move for an ending. yes you can say it's just extremely bad but that is completely subjective, anything else suggests that certain qualities in a game have monetary value. "i paid for it therefor it should have the ending i desire".[/QUOTE] I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard the ending of ME3 was changed after the first one leaked?

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35227011]There is such a thing as objectively bad storytelling[/QUOTE] not at all. go look up how many literary schools of criticism there are and they all have nice disagreements on what makes a story good or bad.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35227078]Read my earlier posts bro, I wasn't reposting stuff for sake of brevity, and I'm fully aware of why [B]Bioware has stated[/B] the content was on the disc you don't need to berate me with it every second. Even if it is true it is still stupid DLC which like I said for the billionth time will only get more stupid if people don't actually not buy this shit. Also please bare in mind most of my anger here was based on the ending, the only reason I've had to continually elaborate on problems with the DLC is because you people keeping quoting me on it, it's making it look like the DLC is the biggest issue I have with the game which it clearly is the most minimal possible thing considering the abysmal ending. I also stated earlier not complaining or acting against such DLC when it was bad for multiple reasons: -Day one DLC (is ridiclous even if content is not on the disc) -Produced on the same production cycle (bad business practice again), noted clearly by the leaked Prothean content. -Inflated prices for minimal content. All of the above three will only get worse the longer people like you keep allowing shit like this to fly.[/QUOTE] so when a game is in certification the developers should just sit on their ass and do nothing? lol and you say it's huge content with a large impact on the story? are you referring to something else?

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227084]no that's what you inferred. not once did i say you can't criticize the game, that would make me a hypocrite considering my only posts in the mass effect thread since finishing the game have been fuck bioware piece of shit game. what i am talking about is rather how we look at the game. we seem to view the ending as some kind of mistake or flaw that should not have been there and that as a consumer you have the right to complain about them just as you have the right to complain about glitches. except glitches are not intentional and form no part of the artistic vision. the "consumer" is irrelevant when it comes to art because you are paying to enjoy an experience. if you don't enjoy it you can have your money back if you are dealing with a kind distributor (even though that's kind of like returning an album or movie after watching it and not liking it), but to suggest that as a consumer you have the rights to tell off the artistic intent because you paid for it has horrible implications. it makes it money-driven and anything money driven will be devoid of any chances because it has to play to the lowest common denominator. why do we wonder about why there's no innovation or creativity in video games? it's obvious to see why when a developer makes an extremely risky move for an ending. yes you can say it's just extremely bad but that is completely subjective, anything else suggests that certain qualities in a game have monetary value. "i paid for it therefor it should have the ending i desire".[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but has anyone actually said "The ending should be what I want it to be because I paid for the game"? The common sentiment seems to be either "The ending should be what they said it would be" or "the ending should be changed because it's garbage". [editline]21st March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;35227110]not at all. go look up how many literary schools of criticism there are and they all have nice disagreements on what makes a story good or bad.[/QUOTE] I don't think there's a literary school that promotes plot holes.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227110]not at all. go look up how many literary schools of criticism there are and they all have nice disagreements on what makes a story good or bad.[/QUOTE] somewhere through all the subjectivity, there's an objective answer i mean, good luck finding it, but it's there. it's just really hard to find.