Mass Effect 3 Ending Scandel Makes Kevin Levine Sad - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sector 7;35227106]...What exactly is your bottom line, here? People who purchased the game regret the purchase because of the game's ending (among other issues.) That is literally the whole 'reaction' everyone is talking about.[/QUOTE] he is talking about supporting "bad business practices" (referring to day one dlc etc) to which I say don't buy them, then you won't be supporting them. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mon;35227137]somewhere through all the subjectivity, there's an objective answer i mean, good luck finding it, but it's there. it's just really hard to find.[/QUOTE] I don't think so. subjectivity!?

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227038]not buying the games and actually doing something shows it is not commercially viable. Don't buy the DLC, don't buy the games, don't support the things you don't like. what more is there to it? [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] of course it is, but no one is complaining about the gameplay, are they? If so, they are entirely different complaints which have no effect on one another [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] they have no effect on one another in this case, at least.[/QUOTE] I've literally been saying this whole time don't purchase the game way to prove you've been reading along. My point was clearly to get others to realize that this is stupid and should not be allowed and that they should let it be acceptable aswell, then you decided to white-knight all of the problems as if there were none to begin with. I said all of that in my first post way to regurgitate it all back out.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;35227122]The common sentiment seems to be either "The ending should be what they said it would be" or "the ending should be changed because it's garbage".[/QUOTE] unless they are saying "it should be this way but i don't want it this way" it's the same thing.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;35227122]I'm sorry, but has anyone actually said "The ending should be what I want it to be because I paid for the game"? The common sentiment seems to be either "The ending should be what they said it would be" or "the ending should be changed because it's garbage". [editline]21st March 2012[/editline] I don't think there's a literary school that promotes plot holes.[/QUOTE] calling the ending garbage clearly implies they didn't get what they want, what they want being "a good ending" which is entirely subjective. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35227148]I've literally been saying this whole time don't purchase the game way to prove you've been reading along. My point was clearly to get others to realize that this is stupid and should not be allowed and that they should let it be acceptable aswell. I said all of that in my first post way to regurgitate it all back out.[/QUOTE] well everyone already knows that if they don't like something not to buy it. is that the point you were trying to make because that was quite the roundabout way to get to it

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;35227122] I don't think there's a literary school that promotes plot holes.[/QUOTE] what if the plot holes are there on purpose!

[quote]It isn't just the straight up lack of quality, it's also the lies from people prior to the release from inside Bioware stating that your choice would hugely and vastly affect the end. Not only would your choice affect the end but one dude even stated that the endings would be almost be indistinguishable from eachother. I don't see J.K. Rowling or anybody else pulling any shit like that. Then again a novel writer wouldn't release details of the ending, because writing novels is ENTIRELY FUCKING DIFFERENT, in a game you're the main character, the story is supposed to revolve around you especially when the game is considered a quote "choice-based game". Comparing them only makes me realize how fucking stupid some of these people are, this is a game built on CHOICE yet choice had no baring on how the whole thing panned out, gg nice fucking work.[/quote] lol yep that is totally what you said in your first post how did I miss that

My opinions about this little showdown I for one however, don't like the ending and wish for change. If you don't like it or a certain part of it, you can speak and say you don't in hopes that the developers will consider changing said part. If a mass group of players from the game lets the devs know they don't like the ending and if they have the right numbers with them, they should consider changing the ending. However, they are not forced to change the ending since they are the developers of said game, they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. Then again, the consequence to not changing the ending if there is a large call for it, your going to have an unhappy base.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227155]calling the ending garbage clearly implies they didn't get what they want, what they want being "a good ending" which is entirely subjective.[/QUOTE] ...When millions of people buy a product and then spend a month or two collectively griping about how terrible it was, the subjective starts to become objective. Whether or not "zombie strippers" is a good film or not is technically subjective, yes. But it is a fucking terrible film.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227178]what if the plot holes are there on purpose![/QUOTE] yes. as bioware has said there is going to be additional content coming out; many of the plot holes I've seen are just things that could easily have an explanation, it just isn't shown in the game. or they could be actual plot holes. I'm not assuming either way.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227178]what if the plot holes are there on purpose![/QUOTE] Then the writers are idiots, pure and simple. I can't think of a single instance in which a plot hole has ever been regarded as an admirable quality.

[QUOTE=Sector 7;35227195]...When millions of people buy a product and then spend a month or two collectively griping about how terrible it was, the subjective starts to become objective.[/QUOTE] nope. the vocal minority hates it and critics and the entire game industry beyond that loves it. I don't see any established objectivity.

[QUOTE=Mon;35226186]art does not work on logic, especially when it's commercialized like video games are[/QUOTE] Movies, music and literature can be heavily commercialized as well.

You still haven't actually answered me as to how the endings were so [B]DEEP[/B] as you put it.

Yet they are considered art.

[QUOTE=Mon;35227137]somewhere through all the subjectivity, there's an objective answer i mean, good luck finding it, but it's there. it's just really hard to find.[/QUOTE] Ehhh, I'm in between you two on this. There are things you can argue, and things you can't. At the end of the day, certain things just aren't debatable. You can't tell a romantic story with characters with no human attributes. You can't tell a dramatic story with no stakes. There are certain limits which simply cannot be crossed due to the nature of empathy. Mass Effect 3's ending is objectively inconsistent with the rest of the series in how the characters act, how the universe works, and how the story is told. And an internally inconsistent universe is hard to immerse yourself into, and as such you could say internal inconsistencies that don't have emotional justification are "mistakes".

[QUOTE=Sector 7;35227195]...When millions of people buy a product and then spend a month or two collectively griping about how terrible it was, the subjective starts to become objective.[/QUOTE] people have moaned for far longer about the ending of Huckleberry Finn

I think BioWare has managed to completely fool it's consumers. Most of the choices you made, didn't matter to the story at all, and if they did, they were pretty much the same thing except with some other character, or in the case of the ending,[sp]different coloured explosions.[/sp] Hell, even the ME2 ending was pretty much exactly the same as the [sp]ME3 ending, except with one less choice.[/sp] The most important choices were the ones that were barely changed at all, especially in ME3. For example: If you saved the rachni queen in ME1[sp]the reapers will synthesize her with reaper tech.[/sp]However, if you killed the rachni queen,[sp]the reapers would have made an artificial queen, which, if you save her, will betray you later.[/sp] Thus making it sort of a deus ex machina (might want to correct me on this one, I'm not sure if this is considered a deus ex machina, but it was the closest thing I could think of) just to make it seem different. If you killed either Ashley, or Kaidan,[sp]everything would just happen the exact same way anyway, except if you romanced Ashley, you have a chance to start over.[/sp] In fact, any of the characters that were killed in the previous games[sp]would just get replaced by another character and the exact same thing would happen, just with a slight twist.[/sp] What I'm saying is, whatever choice you did in the Mass Effect series, there was always something to compensate for it (most of the time), which means you only had the illusion of choice. I've known this since ME2, and the ME3 ending really didn't have that huge of an impact on me, since I pretty much expected it to be like that, or else we would've seen more flags in the save files and a lot more change to the storyline with our choices.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227196]yes. as bioware has said there is going to be additional content coming out; many of the plot holes I've seen are just things that could easily have an explanation, it just isn't shown in the game. or they could be actual plot holes. I'm not assuming either way.[/QUOTE] $10 plot hole patches is not an admirable way of running a business. [QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227205]nope. the vocal minority hates it and critics and the entire game industry beyond that loves it. I don't see any established objectivity.[/QUOTE] Ha! I hope you realize the game "critics" are the vocal minority here, you know, given that they are an actual minority and are paid to publish their opinions on popular websites. That's like saying Rush Limbaugh is the quiet majority of American conservatism. Most people on Bioware's forums hate the endings. Most people in the mass effect thread here on FP hate the endings. Most people on reddit, 4chan, everyone I know in real life, and most people who write the peer reviews on review sites hate the endings. The only people who 'liked' them are the people who are part of the multibillion dollar industry.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227179]lol yep that is totally what you said in your first post how did I miss that[/QUOTE] I'm sorry 2nd post alrighty mister you found a simple mistake do you want a treat for that.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35227200]Then the writers are idiots, pure and simple. I can't think of a single instance in which a plot hole has ever been regarded as an admirable quality.[/QUOTE] ever seen French new wave films?

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227149]unless they are saying "it should be this way but i don't want it this way" it's the same thing.[/QUOTE] Not really. One is a command rooted in entitlement, the other is a harsh criticism combined with strong advice.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35227210]You still haven't actually answered me as to how the endings were so [B]DEEP[/B] as you put it.[/QUOTE] I already did. you just have to think about the implications of each one. I mean each ending clearly states what it will "do," and all of the three options presented are significantly different. I can't argue how it is shown to occur varies at all, but the concepts of [sp]synthesis, or control of the reapers, or destroying ALL synthetic life[/sp] are massive within the context of that universe. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Drax-Quin;35227223]I'm sorry 2nd post alrighty mister you found a simple mistake do you want a treat for that.[/QUOTE] we can nitpick all day lol [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sector 7;35227221]$10 plot hole patches is not an admirable way of running a business.[/QUOTE] you're only assuming it is a hole in the first place.

[QUOTE=black_tech;35227216] Thus making it sort of a deus ex machina[/QUOTE] one could say the ending of Mass Effect 3 was a deus ex machina in itself.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227235]ever seen French new wave films?[/QUOTE] To be honest, can't say I have.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;35227241]Not really. One is a command rooted in entitlement, the other is a harsh criticism combined with strong advice.[/QUOTE] only in context perhaps, not in intent. ultimately people are pissed off because the story isn't what they wanted. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35227249]To be honest, can't say I have.[/QUOTE] it's admired for its non-linear storylines and ambiguity.

[QUOTE=black_tech;35227216]I think BioWare has managed to completely fool it's consumers. Most of the choices you made, didn't matter to the story at all, and if they did, they were pretty much the same thing except with some other character, or in the case of the ending,[sp]different coloured explosions.[/sp] Hell, even the ME2 ending was pretty much exactly the same as the [sp]ME3 ending, except with one less choice.[/sp] The most important choices were the ones that were barely changed at all, especially in ME3. For example: If you saved the rachni queen in ME1[sp]the reapers will synthesize her with reaper tech.[/sp]However, if you killed the rachni queen,[sp]the reapers would have made an artificial queen, which, if you save her, will betray you later.[/sp] Thus making it sort of a deus ex machina (might want to correct me on this one, I'm not sure if this is considered a deus ex machina, but it was the closest thing I could think of) just to make it seem different. If you killed either Ashley, or Kaidan,[sp]everything would just happen the exact same way anyway, except if you romanced Ashley, you have a chance to start over.[/sp] In fact, any of the characters that were killed in the previous games[sp]would just get replaced by another character and the exact same thing would happen, just with a slight twist.[/sp] What I'm saying is, whatever choice you did in the Mass Effect series, there was always something to compensate for it (most of the time), which means you only had the illusion of choice. I've known this since ME2, and the ME3 ending really didn't have that huge of an impact on me, since I pretty much expected it to be like that, or else we would've seen more flags in the save files and a lot more change to the storyline with our choices.[/QUOTE] Well, if you were fooled by that, that's on you. That's pretty obvious from the first game onwards, you know? You see clear examples of those "replacements" in ME1 and so on. It's an illusion of choice, and that is totally ruined if you look up or find out what else can happen. this is why the developer of heavy rain said he only wanted people to play his game once. it's about the experience. it's only a "game" if you want it to be one and choose to seek out those game-y elements by revealing to yourself the stuff that is behind the curtain. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] tl;dr I totally agree, but I think "fooling" is the wrong word. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;35227262]only in context perhaps, not in intent. ultimately people are pissed off because the story isn't what they wanted. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] it's admired for its non-linear storylines and ambiguity.[/QUOTE] even think about pulp fiction. it's an experience (though not really comparable to french new wave lol)

maybe the point of the game is that there's no choice. and that's really the big difference between games and other works. videogames are criticized based on utility rather than meaning.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35227298]maybe the point of the game is that there's no choice. and that's really the big difference between games and other works. videogames are criticized based on utility rather than meaning.[/QUOTE] see: bioshock (look I brought it back on topic somehow) the whole game is based around the fact you don't REALLY have any choices (until the end)

Developers [i]should[/i] have full control over creative power, it's [i]their[/i] game. And, much like film or literature, when they make something mediocre or bad, it's more than fair game for harsh criticism. That being said, however, I agree with Levine: people's demands for refunds, etc. are just stupid. You should [b]know[/b] the risks when pre-ordering games. There are no guarantees, just your agreement to pay for a copy of the released product. I don't ever recall people ever getting mass refunds on their movie tickets for seeing a bad movie, or petitioning to get its script rewritten. Sure, it may be a tenth of the price when compared together, but it's the [i]exact[/i] same principle. People need to move on, and accept the fact that the game ended badly / not how [i]they[/i] wanted. Still Unhappy? Don't support BioWare in the future, or be more cautious when you preorder games.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35227301]see: bioshock (look I brought it back on topic somehow) the whole game is based around the fact you don't REALLY have any choices (until the end)[/QUOTE] in any other fiction that would be considered a quality or a characteristic. in games that's considered a flaw.