i'm okay with this. was already heading over there for a few months for some work experience, higher minimum wage means more money for me to bring back to canada
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheNerdPest14;44634530]Wow, [b]Sweden[/b] sounds a lot better then America immediately. This is in American dollars? I wonder if it would be easier to get a job there...[/QUOTE]
[b]Switzerland[/b] and [b]Sweden[/b] are two completely different countries that aren't even that close to each other
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheNerdPest14;44634530]Wow, [b]Sweden[/b] sounds a lot better then America immediately. This is in American dollars? I wonder if it would be easier to get a job there...[/QUOTE]
[b]Switzerland[/b] and [b]Sweden[/b] are two completely different countries that aren't even that close to each other
I'll probably vote no on this. I don't think it's the right way to go. It would only affect 9% of people living and working in Switzerland. These people could be helped out with different means, such as less taxes or cheaper insurances.
I would probably be fine if the minimum wage would be around 18CHF (ca 20$). It would be a lot more realistic.
[QUOTE=TheNerdPest14;44634530]Sweden[/QUOTE]
That's so much more money than what I make... and I have a professional media job :(
Moving to Switzerland.
[B]E:[/B] Everyone here going "Inflation! Oh God, inflation!" has no idea what they're talking about either. Say minimum wage is $7.50/hr in Facepunchville. It gets raised to $10/hr so all 45,113 active members of Facepunch now make 25% more. This [B]does not[/B] mean that suddenly you're going to see every retailer raise their prices by 25% because everyone has 25% more money; that isn't how it works. Sure, prices are going to go up because people have more money to spend and retailers will know that, but they're not going to go so high so that "we might as well have just kept it at $7.50 because prices are so high now that nothing has changed". Any retailer that does something like that would be insane because their 25% higher prices won't reflect peoples new willingness to spend. If a bed is $200 and they just straight jack it up to $250 because people have more money, they would lose business because that doesn't reflect what people are actually willing to spend on a bed now. Because I have more money, people might be willing to spend $215 but $250 looks like a crazy high amount. And this is just one example of what raising minimum wage can do.
You people need to take economy classes.
As a libertarian I'm obliged to say that this is a terrible idea.
But as a not-far-right libertarian, I'm also obliged to say that a basic income or reverse income tax would be FAR better.
The reasoning is simple: minimum wage hurts (especially small) businesses, basic income does not. Minimum wage screws over marginal workers, basic income does not. Minimum wage does not curb monopolies or other super-massive corporations, basic income can (by way of increased taxes).
It's important to note that while this is great, those Americans who say that we should jump on the band wagon and adopt a $25/hour minimum wage should realize that $25 dollars has the same purchasing power in Switzerland as $14 does in the United States. Still wonderful that they're doing it, but it's not as impressive when put in those terms.
[B]tl;dr: (in terms of purchasing power) $25 in Switzerland = $14 in the United States[/B]
[QUOTE=PolarEventide;44635918]It's important to note that while this is great, those Americans who say that we should jump on the band wagon and adopt a $25/hour minimum wage should realize that $25 dollars has the same purchasing power in Switzerland as $14 does in the United States. Still wonderful that they're doing it, but it's not as impressive when put in those terms.
[B]tl;dr: (in terms of purchasing power) $25 in Switzerland = $14 in the United States[/B][/QUOTE]
It's still fucking impressive to me when minimum wage in my state is 8.00 USD. The jobs that generally pay minimum wage involve so much stress and work for the few part-time hours you can actually get that it's not worth the measly eight dollars an hour you'd "earn."
[QUOTE=Furioso;44636231]It's still fucking impressive to me when minimum wage in my state is 8.00 USD.[/QUOTE]
Ah. Here in CT, we passed $10.10 to be phased in by 2017.
[QUOTE=download;44633656]Minimum wage here in Australia is $18 something.
$25 is certainly not bad[/QUOTE]
It's actually $16.37 lol
I think we are expecting an increase soon though.
[QUOTE=Downsider;44633924]If you have taken an economics class you will realize this is very bad.
I don't mean to toot my own horn but I'm an expert. I got a 100 on my Econ 201H exam last week.
(in all seriousness this is not good and will probably not be passed)[/QUOTE]
Good for you. I got 100% in a second-year management accounting assessment at uni. Doesn't make me an expert. Come back with a degree, a major in economics and at least a decade of relevant work experience and then you can call yourself an expert in the field.
Plus, if you were even a novice at economics, you would understand that although inflation is good, real wages are decreased if wages are not adjusted to inflation. We then have things like the minimum wage to assist in this adjustment, because the market economy is not rational in the real world.
[editline]25th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=skyms2663;44636400]It's actually $16.37 lol
I think we are expecting an increase soon though.[/QUOTE]
There is no single minimum wage; it's a sliding one. An 18 year old has a different minimum wage to a 19 year old, who has a different minimum wage to a 20 year old. We use that system so that younger people with less experience and qualifications are more competitive against people who have already been in the work force for years.
facepunch doesn't know economics
[QUOTE=OrDnAs;44638411]facepunch doesn't know economics[/QUOTE]
To be fair, not even economists know economics. Un-like other sciences, experiments cannot be so easily isolated. It is not as easy to assume ceteris paribus, so there is more subjectivity. Which makes sense, most (if not all) reasonable scientists believe in the Big Bang theory, but you won't find such a consensus between economists on may things. There is still a massive divide between economists of the Keynesian school (and related schools), and economists of the Monetarist schools.
hahahah Estonia has 2.95 usd/h
[QUOTE=PolarEventide;44635918]It's important to note that while this is great, those Americans who say that we should jump on the band wagon and adopt a $25/hour minimum wage should realize that $25 dollars has the same purchasing power in Switzerland as $14 does in the United States. Still wonderful that they're doing it, but it's not as impressive when put in those terms.
[B]tl;dr: (in terms of purchasing power) $25 in Switzerland = $14 in the United States[/B][/QUOTE]
To be fair, $14/hour would actually be considered extremely good for an entry level wage.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;44633669]What I wouldn't give for a $25/hour job.[/QUOTE]
Because raising minimum wage doesn't increase the cost of living... You can't just raise the minimum wage so people can afford more stuff. As you artificially push the lowest payed citizens higher the general cost of living goes up... Look at San Francisco.. Minimum wage is like $15.00 and you still couldn't live there...
[editline]25th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=OrDnAs;44638411]facepunch doesn't know economics[/QUOTE]
Seriously.. It's like "Oh durr! Just give minimum wagers more money! That'll solve all the issues!"
The pay may be higher, but the price may also be higher. Here in canada 25$/h is actually quite high, i wont even get that as a semi truck driver. And everything is lot more expensive than is US, sometime double price.
Don't really have an opinion on this one. One side is saying that people will start losing jobs with the wage, as companies want to save money, but on the other side, there's people working for half of this wage today already, with which you can't possibly survive in any region. The minimum wage would certainly put a stop to the constantly lowering prices people will work for when they can't find anything.
But then again, this affects like 9% of workers above the age of 30, so it's a lot of noise around very little. Living standards are also very different throughout the cantons: In one you pay 1500 Fr for a 3 room appartment at the additional cost of living at the ass end of anything lucrative, requiring you to travel a long way to the industrial regions, in another canton you pay 3'000 for the same size, but then it's closer to the work place usually.
So yeah, difficult decision, and I doubt many people care.
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;44633977]explain why?
inflation?[/QUOTE]
Low wages and high inflation are practically similar.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;44633738]It's interesting that many European countries such as Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Italy have no minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633763]It's because they don't have people there willing to work for $7 an hour. Companies have to actually pay decent wages if they want decent workers.[/QUOTE]
It's in part this and in part that labour unions often create de-facto minimum wages for certain trade sectors.
Germany will get a minimum wage starting with 2015 though - kind of. There will still be exceptions till 2017, but starting with that year it should be 8.50€ (currently 11.7606 US$) everywhere.
I think the most well known issue of people earning very little are Eastern-European temp workers who don't have a union (about 9$), but there are other areas where wages will hike a bit.
It's still not a lot since cost of living is pretty high here. (In fact most already existing minimum wages are quite a bit higher.)
As usual, the plan doesn't account for inflation properly, so I expect the effect to be rather unremarkable.
(We have a lot of statistics fudging here in regards to economy issues. The conservative parties in particular are known for whitewashing things by ripping them out of context - which the Bild (worse than Fox News) promptly picks up on to influence public opinion in their favour.)
The political situation here is quite boring atm though, since we have a large coalition (between the Christian conservative union and the social democratic party) there's not a lot of new stuff coming up.
[QUOTE=avincent;44638793]Because raising minimum wage doesn't increase the cost of living... You can't just raise the minimum wage so people can afford more stuff. As you artificially push the lowest payed citizens higher the general cost of living goes up... Look at San Francisco.. Minimum wage is like $15.00 and you still couldn't live there...
[editline]25th April 2014[/editline]
Seriously.. It's like "Oh durr! Just give minimum wagers more money! That'll solve all the issues!"[/QUOTE]
Remember you are on facepunch and there are a lot of people just like this
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1380518[/url]
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;44633977]explain why?
inflation?[/QUOTE]
The reasons you'll generally be given in a basic econ class are that pricing labor away from the market value creates deadweight loss (in which a chunk of economic efficiency basically disappears from the economy) and some jobs which employers are not willing to pay the minimum wage for will just be removed, increasing unemployment.
I don't know of any free market proponent against the self-formation of worker's unions. As long as they get no extra government given rights and are formed by their own will, then workers have every right to use all the power that they can muster.
Don't companies just raise the price of their products if minimum wage goes up?
Thats why it costs more to live in Cali than in a lower minimum wage state.
I've heard that they also wanted to introduce some pay package to those who don't want to work, because they recognize it as a valid option of life. Not sure how much truth there is to that.
[QUOTE=avincent;44638793]Because raising minimum wage doesn't increase the cost of living... You can't just raise the minimum wage so people can afford more stuff. As you artificially push the lowest payed citizens higher the general cost of living goes up... Look at San Francisco.. Minimum wage is like $15.00 and you still couldn't live there...
[editline]25th April 2014[/editline]
Seriously.. It's like "Oh durr! Just give minimum wagers more money! That'll solve all the issues!"[/QUOTE]
It also under values the people who actually worked their ass off to get a higher paying jobs. Now the money they've earn is worth less effectively making them get paid less.
[QUOTE=dark soul;44644779]It also under values the people who actually worked their ass off to get a higher paying jobs. Now the money they've earn is worth less effectively making them get paid less.[/QUOTE]
How?
Does it somehow reduce the amount of money they make? How? By inflation? What about wage increases to cover this?
[QUOTE=Buck.;44644647]I've heard that they also wanted to introduce some pay package to those who don't want to work, because they recognize it as a valid option of life. Not sure how much truth there is to that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah there was an initiative for basic income last year, and we'll vote on the issue sometime in the future.
[QUOTE=Ricenchicken;44644632]Don't companies just raise the price of their products if minimum wage goes up?
Thats why it costs more to live in Cali than in a lower minimum wage state.[/QUOTE]
They raise it determined on operational costs, so yes
[QUOTE=Banned?;44635403]Moving to Switzerland.
[B]E:[/B] Everyone here going "Inflation! Oh God, inflation!" has no idea what they're talking about either. Say minimum wage is $7.50/hr in Facepunchville. It gets raised to $10/hr so all 45,113 active members of Facepunch now make 25% more. This [B]does not[/B] mean that suddenly you're going to see every retailer raise their prices by 25% because everyone has 25% more money; that isn't how it works. Sure, prices are going to go up because people have more money to spend and retailers will know that, but they're not going to go so high so that "we might as well have just kept it at $7.50 because prices are so high now that nothing has changed". Any retailer that does something like that would be insane because their 25% higher prices won't reflect peoples new willingness to spend. If a bed is $200 and they just straight jack it up to $250 because people have more money, they would lose business because that doesn't reflect what people are actually willing to spend on a bed now. Because I have more money, people might be willing to spend $215 but $250 looks like a crazy high amount. And this is just one example of what raising minimum wage can do.
You people need to take economy classes.[/QUOTE]
What if said businesses have minimum wage employees? You seem to ignore that.
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