Israeli Troops Invade Qalandiya Refugee Camp and Kill Two civilians
215 replies, posted
Wow OP, sensationalist much?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31673304]
I still really don't see how rocks being thrown at you (pretty easy to dodge unless there's over 10 at a time coming at you) constitutes a "threat on your life".[/QUOTE]
because if one hits you it could kill or seriously injure you
[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;31673333]Qalandiya is a military checkpoint. There are ample forces there. There are also things called rubber bullets that incapacitate but not kill. Very common now.[/QUOTE]
yup hes supposed to pull the rubber bullets right out of his ass right?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31673692]yup hes supposed to pull the rubber bullets right out of his ass right?[/QUOTE]
You're right, yawmwen. Since when have military personnel have had access to more than one type of equipment before leaving on a mission?
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;31673821]You're right, yawmwen. Since when have military personnel have had access to more than one type of equipment before leaving on a mission?[/QUOTE]
they dont get a fucking choice on the matter. whoever is in charge of the operation gets to choose equipment
if that soldier didnt have rubber bullets its not his fucking fault
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31673692]because if one hits you it could kill or seriously injure you[/QUOTE]
Well one thing we don't know is how big these "rocks" were. I mean soldiers in first-world countries are generally trained to handle a lot of shit, and now even something as simple as rock-throwing is so life-threatening have you have to retaliate with gunfire lest you be killed?
Then you are saying that the government wanted this to happen.
Like if they're throwing rocks about this size:
[img]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/thevideodrome/iraq_youth_throwing_rock_50.jpg[/img]
I'd be worried about injury and probably get out the area, but "shoot the people" isn't an option I'd go with. It was a careless decision, and it costed lives that didn't need to be taken.
[editline]11th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;31674161]Then you are saying that the government wanted this to happen.[/QUOTE]
What, no.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31674178]
What, no.[/QUOTE]
Meant that for Yawmwen.
If the soldier had no choice and the government/CO knew that he was in some sort of danger yet still supplied him with lethal rounds in a refugee camp.
Draconian Israeli government=/=Nazi Germany. Not even close.
[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;31674161]Then you are saying that the government wanted this to happen.[/QUOTE]
maybe they did. im not taking ANY blame off the shot callers of this operation. i am just saying the front line soldiers are not the ones in the wrong.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31674153]Well one thing we don't know is how big these "rocks" were. I mean soldiers in first-world countries are generally trained to handle a lot of shit, and now even something as simple as rock-throwing is so life-threatening have you have to retaliate with gunfire lest you be killed?[/QUOTE]
if a gun is your only tool on hand against a large mob throwing rocks at you(5 other israeli soldiers were injured, remember) then thats what you have to use.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31674244]if a gun is your only tool on hand against a large mob throwing rocks at you(5 other israeli soldiers were injured, remember) then thats what you have to use.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you're getting this idea that it was a "large mob". The article simply describes the rock-throwers as "youths", and there was more than one soldier at this scene, so you're saying "well, they were getting rocks thrown at them, so they shot them dead in self-defense, it's not their fault".
Freaking Israel... Give the land to the Arabs.
[QUOTE=kimr120;31674639]Freaking Israel... Give the land to the [B]Arabs[/B].[/QUOTE]
What in holy jesus are you talking about?
I always say this in Israel threads
Israeli Suspicion and Belligrence towards their arab neighbours is justified, their occupation of one of them isn't.
These people may be against Israel, but that is no reason to fire upon anyone, why should they send in armed soldiers and not some properly equipped forces for the job of searching of homes and any consequences of doing so, the Israeli army knows that this happens, but they just don't see the need to change how they operate, Israel should be allowed to search homes yes, but not by putting civilians in a position that they need to throw stones and cause, in rare cases, a shooting situation.
Long story short, you don't police a nation with an army, you police it with a [B]Policing[/B] force.
[QUOTE=Hick2;31674924]I always say this in Israel threads
Israeli Suspicion and Belligrence towards their arab neighbours is justified, their occupation of one of them isn't.
These people may be against Israel, but that is no reason to fire upon anyone, why should they send in armed soldiers and not some properly equipped forces for the job of searching of homes and any consequences of doing so, the Israeli army knows that this happens, but they just don't see the need to change how they operate,[B] Israel should be allowed to search homes yes[/B], but not by putting civilians in a position that they need to throw stones and cause, in rare cases, a shooting situation.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, whoa, why should they be allowed to search their homes?
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;31674709]What in holy jesus are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that the Jews should give up and give the place to the Muslims.
This is why no one likes you Israel.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31674335]I don't know where you're getting this idea that it was a "large mob". The article simply describes the rock-throwers as "youths", and there was more than one soldier at this scene, so you're saying "well, they were getting rocks thrown at them, so they shot them dead in self-defense, it's not their fault".[/QUOTE]
im getting the idea that it was a large mob because 5 other israeli soldiers were injured. given those facts it is a pretty safe bet it was a large group throwing rocks, not just 1 or 2 guys.
[QUOTE=kimr120;31675205]I'm saying that the Jews should give up and give the place to the Muslims.[/QUOTE]
wow arent you a bigot
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31675370]im getting the idea that it was a large mob because 5 other israeli soldiers were injured. given those facts it is a pretty safe bet it was a large group throwing rocks, not just 1 or 2 guys.[/QUOTE]
Still doesn't warrant firing shots.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675194]Whoa, whoa, why should they be allowed to search their homes?[/QUOTE]
Only with proper justification of course, terrorism and such.
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;31673821]You're right, yawmwen. Since when have military personnel have had access to more than one type of equipment before leaving on a mission?[/QUOTE]
Go play some more video games.
Soldiers don't get a fucking loadout screen or something before a mission, they get assigned equipment, they have no say in the matter.
Blame the people who sent them on the mission in the first place, not the soldiers themselves.
[QUOTE=Hick2;31675444]Only with proper justification of course, terrorism and such.[/QUOTE]
This was a [B]refugee camp.[/B] Where was the justification?
[editline]11th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;31675495]Go play some more video games.
Soldiers don't get a fucking loadout screen or something before a mission, they get assigned equipment, they have no say in the matter.
Blame the people who sent them on the mission in the first place, not the soldiers themselves.[/QUOTE]
So they sent soldiers off to search refugee houses and gave them nothing but an assault rifle? If that was really the case, that's horrible.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675442]Still doesn't warrant firing shots.[/QUOTE]
yea it does. their lives were in danger and they needed to act to disperse the crowd however they could.
if it was a perfect world they would have been equipped with non-lethal tools, but they werent, so they had to make do with what they had.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675442]Still doesn't warrant firing shots.[/QUOTE]
I really like how big people talk in threads like this one.
What if they were backed into a corner? What if they had no where to retreat to?
You are making an awful lot of assumptions when you say "THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE RUN AWAY"
[editline]11th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675501]
So they sent soldiers off to search refugee houses and gave them nothing but an assault rifle? If that was really the case, that's horrible.[/QUOTE]
And zip ties Im sure. If the people you are searching are compliant, you don't need anything more than that.
Edit:
Mind you Im not condoning this operation, but seriously, don't put the blame on the soldiers themselves. They did what they had to.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31675535]yea it does. their lives were in danger and they needed to act to disperse the crowd however they could.
if it was a perfect world they would have been equipped with non-lethal tools, but they werent, so they had to make do with what they had.[/QUOTE]
5 Israeli soldiers got injured, and no one thought of running away?
[editline]11th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;31675551]I really like how big people talk in threads like this one.
What if they were backed into a corner? What if they had no where to retreat to?
You are making an awful lot of assumptions when you say "THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE RUN AWAY"[/QUOTE]
And you're making an awful lot of assumptions when you say they were in so much danger from [B]ROCK THROWING[/B] that they had to gun down refugees.
[QUOTE=kimr120;31675205]I'm saying that the Jews should give up and give the place to the Muslims.[/QUOTE]
You just oversimplified it even [I]more![/I]
1. Palestinians=/=Arabs.
2. Not all Palestinians and Arabs are Muslims, and not all Israelis are Jewish. Instead of saying "give the place to the Muslims", it should be "give the place to the Palestinians".
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675501]This was a [B]refugee camp.[/B] Where was the justification?
[editline]11th August 2011[/editline]
So they sent soldiers off to search refugee houses and gave them nothing but an assault rifle? If that was really the case, that's horrible.[/QUOTE]
Assault Rifle for self-defense purposes. If they had known that they'd need force for mob control, I'm sure they would of been given rubber ammunition.
I don't agree with the actual killings of those people, but an Assault Rifle could of been justified in the use if it disabled them, such as a shot to a leg or something. Also I wonder if IDF forces are even supplied with rubber ammunition anyways, because they are a military force and I think you'd find rubber ammunition supplied to police forces.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31675586]5 Israeli soldiers got injured, and no one thought of running away?
[/quote]
Militaries generally try to AVOID retreating. They arent police officers, they aren't obligated to look after the safety of their attackers.
[quote]
And you're making an awful lot of assumptions when you say they were in so much danger from [B]ROCK THROWING[/B] that they had to gun down refugees.[/QUOTE]
Well, 5 people were somehow injured, so Im gonna say that its safe to assume that they were in danger.
snip
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;31675731]Militaries generally try to AVOID retreating. They arent police officers, they aren't obligated to look after the safety of their attackers.[/QUOTE]
So even when in a refugee camp, to search houses no less, soldiers aren't obligated to give even the slightest shit whether or not to use lethal force?
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