[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40746103][B]popes have always been said to be in direct contact with god[/B] (?)[/QUOTE]
For someone who loves bashing the shit out of the pope for being the pope, Dori doesn't know very much about the Catholic church
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40746103][B]popes have always been said to be in direct contact with god[/B] (?)[/QUOTE]
that's what I've always been told
[QUOTE=Furioso;40746121]For someone who loves bashing the shit out of the pope for being the pope, Dori doesn't know very much about the Catholic church[/QUOTE]
I'm critical of him for being a homophobe, not for being the pope
[QUOTE=Dori;40746147]that's what I've always been told[/QUOTE]
The pope is essentially the most ranked human being of god's divine hierarchy, followed by cardinals and the rest of the Church. That doesn't mean he's in direct contact with god (if he was shit would be far simpler).
[QUOTE=Dori;40746147]that's what I've always been told[/QUOTE]
As opposed to reading about it/researching yourself? hahaha
[QUOTE=Dori;40746147]I'm critical of him for being a homophobe, not for being the pope[/QUOTE]
You're making shit up. I'm gonna quote what I posted earlier in the thread since you still don't get it:
[quote]I don't think he's as vehemently "anti-gay" as you think. Yes, he doesn't personally condone a homosexual orientation. In that case he has stated his own opinion, how he feels about the subject. But he goes on to point out that as far as [I]God[/I] is concerned, as long as you're trying to be a good person in the end, it won't matter what sins you've committed, and you'll still be saved. Gays, atheists, transgenders, white people, black people, purple people, everybody. He's saying that the only people going to hell are people that really deserve it. And yes, there is a distinction between the Pope's personal views and what the Pope holds God's views to be, since in Catholicism the Pope is God's representative on Earth. You could almost view it as a literal testament to the fact that he's not perfect - but God is. And the current pope knows it.[/quote]
Just in case it still isn't clicking, yes, he doesn't like homosexuality and he won't endorse it. That is his own opinion. But that being said, he has clearly made the claim that homosexual or not, you're still getting into Heaven as long as you're a decent person in God's eyes, not his own.
The pope said that homosexuals will be welcomed by God as long as they're good people. How does that justify vehemently calling him a homophobe?
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;40745901]It's good that he thinks that way, but it also, at the same time, shows what a joke the pope and the catholic church is since it's not even slightly biblical.
I mean if they can just say the opposite of the Bible then what's even the point of them even existing? It's basically a totally separate religion at that point.[/QUOTE]
Are you actually complaining that the pope is being to progressive. That's just arguing for the sake of arguing.
In one snap, the Pope closed down the first circle of Hell.
[QUOTE=Furioso;40746171]As opposed to reading about it/researching yourself? hahaha
[/QUOTE]
yes, I don't particularly care about the intricacies of the catholic church. a lot of religious people I know are anti-catholic and say that the pope speaks for god and the church, and you could argue that he does because his word and his interpretation of the bible is highly respected
[quote] You're making shit up. I'm gonna quote what I posted earlier in the thread since you still don't get it:[/quote]
I'm not making up the fact that he's a homophobe. anyone who holds homophobic beliefs is a homophobe
[QUOTE=F T;40741806]Ephesians 2: 8-9 does not agree.[/QUOTE]
That is one area where Catholics split from Protestants. One way Martin Luther challenged the Church was by claiming faith alone got one into heaven, but Catholic teachings says good deeds do.
[QUOTE=Dori;40746218]yes, I don't particularly care about the intricacies of the catholic church. a lot of religious people I know are anti-catholic and say that the pope speaks for god and the church[/QUOTE]
Know your enemy. How can you attack something while not understanding it?
[QUOTE=Dori;40746218]I'm not making up the fact that he's a homophobe. anyone who holds homophobic beliefs is a homophobe[/QUOTE]
He goes so far as to say that everyone will get into Heaven, if they're Catholic or not, straight or otherwise, as long as they're good people in God's eyes. That is eternal peace and eternal [I]welcome literally forever[/I]
Those are some pretty big fucking implications. So what more do you want? Does he have to suck someone's dick in public before you're satisfied?
[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40745828]Then please pick one and list the major benefits that were proven using scientific means. You made the claim, then said anyone who disagrees is an "ignorant retard", now prove it. Your laziness is not an excuse to make someone else argue for you.[/QUOTE]
I not going to site common sense and pick it for you from there, it's there you just have to look for it. but if you're suffering from Aspergers or mentally challenged, you could just say so.
I'm going to make the assumption that you're suffering from those conditions and point out the obvious.
[url]http://www.livescience.com/6073-children-raised-lesbians-fine-studies-show.html[/url]
[url]http://www.livescience.com/17913-advantages-gay-parents.html[/url]
Enjoy.
[QUOTE=Furioso;40746281]
He goes so far as to say that everyone will get into Heaven, if they're Catholic or not, straight or otherwise, as long as they're good people in God's eyes. That is eternal peace and eternal [I]welcoming[/I]
What more do you want? Does he have to suck someone's dick in public before you're satisfied?[/QUOTE]
he could start by disavowing homophobic doctrine
telling me that I might go to heaven isn't going to help when I'm still on earth and I can't marry or can't receive full marriage benefits because I'm treated as a subhuman
Holy shit, speaking as a Catholic who believes in gay marriage and a women's right to choose, this is incredibly good for us.
[QUOTE=Dori;40746303]he could start by disavowing homophobic doctrine
telling me that I might go to heaven isn't going to help when I'm still on earth and I can't marry or can't receive full marriage benefits because I'm treated as a subhuman[/QUOTE]
For once in my life I think I agree with you
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;40746309]Holy shit, speaking as a Catholic who believes in gay marriage and a women's right to choose, this is incredibly good for us.[/QUOTE]
When you say "women's right to choose", you mean, abortion?
Sorry, if that's the case, then you should check your compass.
Tolerating homosexual marriage would be considerable taking into account St Thomas Aquinas teachings, but abortion, is just going straight agaisnt one the fundamental pillars of Catholic doctrine: Humans having soul since conception.
[QUOTE] he could start by disavowing homophobic doctrine[/QUOTE]
[U][I][B]Impossible.[/B][/I][/U] Impossible as in asking "Can you stop believing in God?"
The Church considers marriage to be confined to men and women, heterosexuals.
Best case would be to use St Thomas Aquinas....
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40746387]When you say "women's right to choose", you mean, abortion?
Sorry, if that's the case, then you should check your compass.
Tolerating homosexual marriage would be considerable taking into account St Thomas Aquinas teachings, but abortion, is just going straight agaisnt one the fundamental pillars of Catholic doctrine: Humans having soul since conception.[/QUOTE]
Souls and life beginning at conception, is one of the many retarded things religion has "contributed" to the world-wide belief structure, it doesn't benefit anyone, it's not true, and has negative impacts on choices people make in their lives, if the Pope gave that up, that would be something.
But it can never happen.
Religion has to die altogether for something nice to happen.
[QUOTE=Dori;40745224]ok I'll stop calling him a homophobe when he stops being homophobic
[editline]1[/editline]
"he disagrees on gay marriage, which is something a lot of people do"
"he agrees on slavery, which is something a lot of people do"
[editline]22nd May 2013[/editline]
your homophobia is showing[/QUOTE]
Let me put it this way, have you ever gotten so angry you felt like wanting to kill someone? But after a few moments those feelings went away? Does that make you a muderer? Is a pedophile a pedo because he feels attracted to little children or is he so if he acts on his instincts?
Homosexuality IS a mental and/or genetic disorder, gay people don't like it to be called that and use excuses such as "it can be seen on other animals", I know plenty of diseases that are shared among several species, as are some disorders.
The point being, nobody cares (I don't at least) that it's a disorder because it is one that hurts nobody and therefore nobody holds the rights to tell someone else what gender they feel attracted to, who they have consensual sex with or what to do with their bodies (as long as it harms no one else).
That being said, if you only read what I said first, you'd think of me a homophobe because I believe homosexuality is a disorder (just the fact that it goes against evolution theory, of which reproduction is a key part, nothing religious about my view) and yet I have nothing against homosexuals because (normal) homosexuals harm nobody and there are good and bad homosexuals as there are heterosexuals, white people, black people, and so on. So, what am I now, pro-homosexuality or anti-homosexuality? Neither, I hold a personal view and I am entitled to it.
A homophobe describes someone who is afraid of homosexuality, and may act upon it through violence or verbal abuse, of which the Pope can be blamed by neither because the only thing he can be accused of is not sharing the same views as someone else, which he's perfectly entitled to, if he publicly said "homosexuals should be killed", "homosexuality should be banished throughout the world and those people should be hidden in dark rooms" or if he personally went around mocking homosexuals or attacking them in a physical or verbal manner, then yes, the Pope could be considered a homophobe.
But saying he is not in favour of homosexual marriage or adoption? That doesn't make him a homophobe, and saying his view affects a lot of people is a pretty bold statement, if the Pope started saying "homosexuality is fine" it wouldn't change the minds of every homophobe on Earth, because homophobia is not a belief, it's also a disorder in my eyes.
[QUOTE=Dori;40746303]he could start by disavowing homophobic doctrine
telling me that I might go to heaven isn't going to help when I'm still on earth and I can't marry or can't receive full marriage benefits because I'm treated as a subhuman[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/world/americas/pope-francis-old-colleagues-recall-pragmatic-streak.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0[/URL]
[quote=Article]“[B]He listened to my views with a great deal of respect[/B],” said Marcelo Márquez, a gay rights leader and theologian who wrote a tough letter to Cardinal Bergoglio and, to his surprise, [I]received a call from him less than an hour after it was delivered[/I]. “[B]He told me that homosexuals need to have recognized rights[/B] and that he supported civil unions, but not same-sex marriage.”
Mr. Márquez said he went on to meet twice with Cardinal Bergoglio, telling him of his plan to marry his partner and discussing theology. The man who would become pope gave him a copy of his biography, “The Jesuit.”
Cardinal Bergoglio’s readiness to reach out across the ideological spectrum and acknowledge civil unions for gay people could raise expectations that he would do the same as pope.[/quote]
I get what you're saying about the "same, but not the same" idea regarding civil unions, but at the same time I don't. It's just ridiculous to compare it to racial segregation, which was about civil rights [I]all across the board[/I], not just marriage. And to claim that the Catholic church views gays as "subhumans" is simply absurd and more than a bit of a stretch. The fact that the church has even been open to the idea of a marriage-equivalent for homosexuals is a big leap in terms of its history. The pope clearly has a decent degree of respect for homosexual people. He wants to find a solution. You just seem set on tearing him up rather arbitrarily
[QUOTE=redhaven;40746182]In one snap, the Pope closed down the first circle of Hell.[/QUOTE]
And the limbo where the philosophers of Ancient greece stayed, unharmed but bored as shit because they were born too early to believe in Jesus.
Smile plato, you're in heaven now.
Don't get me wrong for what I'm going to say. I'm just making an observation.
In these months I heard a lot about "papa francesco" and I see every day a lot of people in love with the pope. That's not a problem for me, everyone is free to believe in what they want. It's that freedom thingy, kinda cool.
But the 1 thing I haven't seen is an objective remark about all the things the pope said.
What I find objective about this is that he's telling people things that should be given as known but still missing in many contest when it comes to religion or similar things (political/economical groups perhaps).
Now that's good, but for many people it sounds like he's the only one that can think in that way while he's just doing what he should.
The church was "bugged" before, the pope is not bringing it to the next level.
And the question is:
Should we praise a man for doing his job right or not particularly acknowledge him because he's just doing his work?
Now, if we go back to reality of course you should be happy to see a good and genuine person but there're two things I dislike (and makes me think) from all this church 2.0
-You have more and more people that DARE to think that "good" comes from religion and it can't be a result of a different path
-I have to realize that in 2013 we still have to get, for no kind of rational reason, a person to try to make clear that different doesn't mean "I can burn it".
Which leads to the simple conclusion that things will never change because human kind needs to destroy it self because everyone is just [B]completely obsess[/B] about power or things arising from it.
But I'm just digressing... all I'm saying is that we should be happy about the pope (unless something comes out of course) but at the same time we should snap out and think that it doesn't take a theologian to realize what it's good or bad on these simple things. Especially when it comes to really closed minded things like religion/religious people. Trust me, I live in Italy, I saw many things about the church. I went to it for many years and actually looking backward it was just a massive waste of time (why wasn't I send to an academy of music damn). I'm not referring everything to bad things (like pedo) but damn... sometimes it feels like talking with a deaf-mute-blind person. Of course there will never be [B]real respect[/B] between religious people and atheist but at least I will never say "you're too young or stupid" or "you are a bad person because you don't believe or follow the church". Even because you can't prove that god exist or that it doesn't! So why not just enjoy life and respect a little more?
More objective and less impulsive! (which doesn't mean you can't believe in God or anything else)
Feel free to destroy my way to think, I need some critique!
And I apologize for my weird English and I hate hippies (I'm just saying that I'm not "no violence and smoke marijuana", I just try as hard as I can to be objective)
[QUOTE=Doodle313;40746297]I not going to site common sense and pick it for you from there, it's there you just have to look for it. but if you're suffering from Aspergers or mentally challenged, you could just say so.
I'm going to make the assumption that you're suffering from those conditions and point out the obvious.
[url]http://www.livescience.com/6073-children-raised-lesbians-fine-studies-show.html[/url]
[url]http://www.livescience.com/17913-advantages-gay-parents.html[/url]
Enjoy.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to ignore your insults, since this started with you calling anyone who disagrees an "ignorant retard".
Please read what you posted. Neither of those articles has evidence (and there's not really anything scientific, which is what you claimed) of anything except gay parents being about equal to straight parents (which no one is arguing against). What happened to all the "major benefits"?
[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40746577]I'm going to ignore your insults, since this started with you calling anyone who disagrees an "ignorant retard".
Please read what you posted. Neither of those articles has evidence (and there's not really anything scientific, which is what you claimed) of anything except gay parents being about equal to straight parents (which no one is arguing against). What happened to all the "major benefits"?[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?, you can't be this ignorant, you must be a troll, you are a troll.
[QUOTE]Religion has to die altogether for something nice to happen.[/QUOTE]
Hahahaha, people still wonder why some people believe in God, and I still wonder why some people have this basic and so wrong thoughts....
May I ask, are you a positivist? or marxist?
[QUOTE]I get what you're saying about the "same, but not the same" idea regarding civil unions, but at the same time I don't. It's just ridiculous to compare it to racial segregation, which was about civil rights all across the board, not just marriage. And to claim that the Catholic church views gays as "subhumans" is simply absurd and more than a bit of a stretch. The fact that the church has even been open to the idea of a marriage-equivalent for homosexuals is a big leap in terms of its history. The pope clearly has a decent degree of respect for homosexual people. He wants to find a solution. You just seem set on tearing him up rather arbitrarily[/QUOTE]
One last thing, the Pope is not asking for homosexuals rights recognition (Is that gramatically correct?) because he thinks Homosexuality is right or is not a problem, but rather because....ST FUCKING THOMAS AQUINAS:
[I][B]The human law, says Thomas, is not obliged to repress all vices. It is framed for most people, who are far from perfect in virtue. It is aimed at the more grievous vices from which the majority can abstain, i.e., those which are to the hurt of others, e.g., murder, theft, and the like. Were the law to attempt to legislate perfection, it would make people hostile to the law and defeat its purpose. (Q. 96, a. 2)[/B][/I]
EDIT: holy crap that was one big ass pic.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40746726]Hahahaha, people still wonder why some people believe in God, and I still wonder why some people have this basic and so wrong thoughts....
May I ask, are you a positivist? or marxist?
One last thing, the Pope is not asking for homosexuals rights recognition (Is that gramatically correct?) because he thinks Homosexuality is right or is not a problem, but rather because....ST FUCKING THOMAS AQUINAS:
[I][B]The human law, says Thomas, is not obliged to repress all vices. It is framed for most people, who are far from perfect in virtue. It is aimed at the more grievous vices from which the majority can abstain, i.e., those which are to the hurt of others, e.g., murder, theft, and the like. Were the law to attempt to legislate perfection, it would make people hostile to the law and defeat its purpose. (Q. 96, a. 2)[/B][/I]
EDIT: holy crap that was one big ass pic.[/QUOTE]
What you're doing is basically ad hominem, you might want to elaborate on that.
[QUOTE]What you're doing is basically ad hominem, you might want to elaborate on that.[/QUOTE]
Ad hominem? May I ask, why?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40746818]Ad hominem? May I ask, why?[/QUOTE]
wow, do I really need to explain what is ...
I'm done.
[QUOTE=Doodle313;40746839]wow, do I really need to explain what is ...
I'm done.[/QUOTE]
No, I know what an ad hominem is, but you have to explain why what I said was an ad hominem. I dont think you understand what an ad hominem is.... So I would like you to show me why what I said was an ad hominem.
[QUOTE=Doodle313;40746688]Are you serious?, you can't be this ignorant, you must be a troll, you are a troll.[/QUOTE]
What you're doing is basically ad hominem, you might want to elaborate on that.
A Pope that Facepunch actually likes, I never thought I'd see the day
This has been said by multiple past popes.
[QUOTE=helpiminabox;40746854]What you're doing is basically ad hominem, you might want to elaborate on that.[/QUOTE]
I gave him all the info he could possibly want that proves my point on same-sex parents having benefits over straight parents.
at that point I could only assume that he is either trolling/lazy/mentally challenged
What I did was not ad hominem because it was the obvious reflection of what he was doing.
I can't believe I need to explain these kind of things.
The level here is below 4chan/hackforums.
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