Obama praises Australia's, UK's gun laws following mass shooting
400 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sitkero;48807529]
The infamous gunshow loophole isn't even much of a loophole, depending on state law and what the gun show's managing body allows, there might not even be private sellers there, and as far as I know, if selling at a gun show they have to follow the same state, federal, and local laws as licensed sellers[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's not even a guaranteed thing, was just edumacating the aussies
I wouldn't call it a loophole either, it's lawful and recognized by the ATF.
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;48807488]Your argument is "it's the law and I want one." Why is it lawful? Why do you want to own one?
This isn't about taking guns from your hands. This is about keeping them out of the hands of those who are unfit to own one. This is about recognizing that there is a problem with the way gun ownership is currently being handled, as demonstrated by how routine USA's mass shootings have become, and about taking responsibility for this by correcting the problem.
What are the negatives about tightening up the requirements to own a gun?
What is so bad about an [i]incentive[/i] (not an obligation, an incentive) for people to sell their guns back to the state, via a national buy-back scheme?
What makes it so terrible to reduce the number of guns available to US citizens, and owned by US citizens, if the goal is to reduce gun violence across the entire nation? Doesn't this go beyond what [i]you[/i] want?[/QUOTE]
I can see how buybacks can be viewed negatively. "You're selling yourself and your rights down the river for a monetary reward" type stuff, but I'd be for tighter requirements all the damn way unless they specifically state arbitrary limits or restrictions on vague terms like "Assault style" or "Military-like".
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807540]Mass murders in the grand scheme of things are a very, very low statistic in U.S. gun related deaths, they just get a fuckload of news coverage that inflates the severity of it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we only hear about your mass murders in the news here and not about all the other gun related deaths.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807519]Tell me why this is a bad thing[/QUOTE]
Because each year, guns are used in 11,000 homicides, 21,000 suicides, as well as 85,000 shootings that resulted in an injury.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807519]Tell me why this is a bad thing[/QUOTE]
Mass school shootings
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48807555]Because each year, guns are used in 11,000 homicides, 21,000 suicides, as well as 85,000 shootings that resulted in an injury.[/QUOTE]
The U.S. has a very large population. Ofc you're going to get a large amount of gun related statistics. 300 Million, on average the leaves around what, 300 odd shootings a day? Compared to death by cars and drugs that's very minuscule.
[editline]2nd October 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lebofly;48807557]Mass school shootings[/QUOTE]
Again, a very very very low statistic in gun-related crimes. Media coverage inflates the hell out of it. I could find a source if you would like?
Not sure if Huffington Post is liked around here but: [URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/06/11/gun-violence-and-mass-shootings-myths-facts-and-solutions/[/URL]
FBI Youth Gun Violence Fact Sheet [URL]http://www.nasponline.org/resources/crisis_safety/youth_gun_violence_fact_sheet.pdf[/URL]
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807563]The U.S. has a very large population. Ofc you're going to get a large amount of gun related statistics.
[editline]2nd October 2015[/editline]
Again, a very very very low statistic in gun-related crimes. Media coverage inflates the hell out of it. I could find a source if you would like?[/QUOTE]
The US has the 13th highest firearms related death rate, at 10.64 per 100,000, and the highest of any developed country. The next highest developed country is Finland, with 3.64 per 100,000. I'd say that's a pretty big problem.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;48805970]It takes 13 people dying for him to say something yet HUNDREDS of young black males die every year in his hometown and he doesn't give a shit. He's trying to politicize a tragedy to push his stupid fucking agendas.[/QUOTE]
why is it only singled to young black males? lots of people die to shootings each year, not just young black males.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807519]Tell me why this is a bad thing[/QUOTE]
I am actually stumped by this. There is so much wrong with a culture obsessing over guns. Mass shootings aren't rare in the us and guns used are more likely to be legally procured than not.
And the worst part is where everyone seem to be defending the way you solve gun problems by introducing more guns.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48807582]The US has the 13th highest firearms related death rate, at 10.64 per 100,000, and the highest of any developed country. The next highest developed country is Finland, with 3.64 per 100,000. I'd say that's a pretty big problem.[/QUOTE]
You say that but then again firearms related death rates have been steadily DECREASING since 1993
[url]http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf[/url] (Older file but still shows.)
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807595]You say that but then again firearms related death rates have been steadily DECREASING since 1993
[url]http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf[/url] (Older file but still shows.)[/QUOTE]
Why do you think this is happening?
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;48807593]I am actually stumped by this. There is so much wrong with a culture obsessing over guns. Mass shootings aren't rare in the us and guns used are more likely to be legally procured than not.
And the worst part is where everyone seem to be defending the way you solve gun problems by introducing more guns.[/QUOTE]
Mass shootings are extremely rare in the U.S.
Media Coverage.
And honestly, I like guns and all but I don't see the U.S. as a culture that obsesses over guns. Sure we have guns ingrained in the Bill of Rights via 2nd amendment but slowly the U.S. is seeing a shift in interest from guns.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48807196]I like blowing things up with large amounts of high explosives, why won't the government let me do that without restriction? I also like getting high on heroin and cocaine, why does the government ban those?[/QUOTE]
You can blow things up, it's just very difficult and expensive to get explosives legally. And you make fun of drug bans while touting gun bans, but drug bans have hardly been effective...
[QUOTE=Satansick;48807603]Why do you think this is happening?[/QUOTE]
Honestly, why don't you tell me?
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807608]Mass shootings are extremely rare in the U.S.
Media Coverage.
And honestly, I like guns and all but I don't see the U.S. as a culture that obsesses over guns. Sure we have guns ingrained in the Bill of Rights via 2nd amendment but slowly the U.S. is seeing a shift in interest from guns.[/QUOTE]
in 29 years you had 78 mass shootings. that's a bit more than 2,5 shooting per year.
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;48807627]in 29 years you had 78 mass shootings. that's a bit more than 2,5 shooting per year.[/QUOTE]
The U.S. is a massive country. And mass shootings, as a statistic, are simply more than 4-5 people being killed in one instance via guns.
School shootings and school-associated homicides are defined as: "On school property, on the way to or from regular sessions at school, and while attending or traveling to or from a school-sponsored event."
In all reality it's just a bunch of endless buzzwords. [url]http://time.com/3432950/fbi-mass-shooting-report-misleading/[/url] [url]https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013[/url]
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807563]The U.S. has a very large population. Ofc you're going to get a large amount of gun related statistics. 300 Million, on average the leaves around what, 300 odd shootings a day? Compared to death by cars and drugs that's very minuscule.
[editline]2nd October 2015[/editline]
Again, a very very very low statistic in gun-related crimes. Media coverage inflates the hell out of it. I could find a source if you would like?
Not sure if Huffington Post is liked around here but: [URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/06/11/gun-violence-and-mass-shootings-myths-facts-and-solutions/[/URL]
FBI Youth Gun Violence Fact Sheet [URL]http://www.nasponline.org/resources/crisis_safety/youth_gun_violence_fact_sheet.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter how low it is, the kids that get killed aren't just another number in your statistic. They have families and I'm sure they'd like to be in a safe learning environment without the fear of someone walking in with a gun. I've never had that fear in my life and I can't imagine it being pleasing.
But truth be told I don't really care I'm just stating my opinion on the matter it's nothing personal
Bans on existing products have a history of not only not working, but actually backfiring. Prohibition, Drug Bans, Abstinence Only Education. Shit, basic Sociology goes over this in regards to deviance. The seduction of crime. Something being illegal makes it more enticing because society finds crime sexy. Its why there are problems with upper-middle class young adults stealing and shoplifting. They have no need to do it, but they want to because crime is sexy, they can brag about it later to their friends. Its why we see stories of "Robber caught after bragging about crime on Facebook." And especially when you make something illegal that people have had before in their lives, that they've seen no problems with or see benefit in, its even more enticing to break the law.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;48807644]Bans on existing products have a history of not only not working, but actually backfiring. Prohibition, Drug Bans, Abstinence Only Education. Shit, basic Sociology goes over this in regards to deviance. The seduction of crime. Something being illegal makes it more enticing because society finds crime sexy. Its why there are problems with upper-middle class young adults stealing and shoplifting. They have no need to do it, but they want to because crime is sexy, they can brag about it later to their friends. Its why we see stories of "Robber caught after bragging about crime on Facebook." And especially when you make something illegal that people have had before in their lives, that they've seen no problems with or see benefit in, its even more enticing to break the law.[/QUOTE]
Yeah definitely we can expect to see more black market weapons being sold but that being said it won't be as easy for the average joe to get his hands on it (Are most of these cases legally owned guns?)
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;48807595]You say that but then again firearms related death rates have been steadily DECREASING since 1993
[url]http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf[/url] (Older file but still shows.)[/QUOTE]
A look further back will tell you that it [url="http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/"]rose to a peak in 1993, and then started to fall[/url].
I could talk about trends all day long but it still doesn't change the fact that many people suffer from firearms-related crime and something should be done about it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48807619]You can blow things up, it's just very difficult and expensive to get explosives legally. And you make fun of drug bans while touting gun bans, but drug bans have hardly been effective...[/QUOTE]
Correct, and it's difficult for a good reason: in the hands of the wrong people, it can be very dangerous. And yes, drug bans are ineffective, which is why I've stopped arguing for banning things for pragmatic reasons. Increased regulation is still something that can help, however.
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;48807627]in 29 years you had 78 mass shootings. that's a bit more than 2,5 shooting per year.[/QUOTE]
Please stop focusing on mass shootings. Gun violence is a big problem in the US, and mass shootings are indeed part of that problem, but they are a very tiny part.
[QUOTE=Satansick;48807603]Why do you think this is happening?[/QUOTE]
There are less restrictions federally on guns in the US now than any time since 1985, and every single State has some kind of law that allows people to carry a gun concealed. Crime rates are at the lowest point they've been in 50 years. If it was the gun, and only the gun, that led to gun crime they should be at an all-time high for homicide seeing as there are more guns and more people are able to carry them than ever before.
I can't find the data right now, but I believe most criminologists believe a drop in crime correlates to an increasingly aging population. We saw a boom in crime in the late '60s - early '70s all across North America due to the Baby Boomers coming of age, and with a large populace of stupid young people, some were bound to commit stupid crimes. Now that most of the population is middle-aged or older, they're too old to commit crimes anymore.
[QUOTE=Lebofly;48807643]Doesn't matter how low it is, the kids that get killed aren't just another number in your statistic. They have families and I'm sure they'd like to be in a safe learning environment without the fear of someone walking in with a gun. I've never had that fear in my life and I can't imagine it being pleasing.
But truth be told I don't really care I'm just stating my opinion on the matter it's nothing personal[/QUOTE]
It's harrowing I know, but to the anti-gun and pro-gun crowd, yeah they're just a statistic.
I'm neither pro-gun nor anti-gun. I personally would like all gun crime to stop, but the saturation of the population with guns simply will not allow that to happen. And tbh there's really nothing we can do but locate the sole problem with all of this. And I can assure you, it's not just guns.
A start in new regulations in acquiring guns can help, but then you could argue that you're taking guns away from law abiding citizens
[editline]2nd October 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48807654]A look further back will tell you that it [URL="http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/"]rose to a peak in 1993, and then started to fall[/URL].
I could talk about trends all day long but it still doesn't change the fact that many people suffer from firearms-related crime and something should be done about it.[/QUOTE]
Then what do we do about it? It's a very difficult thing to figure out. I don't like it anymore than you do but statistics are statistics, people are suffering.
[QUOTE=Satansick;48807603]Why do you think this is happening?[/QUOTE]
I'm not a physiologist but I'd say the media has a bad habit of making people infamous who shoot up schools,churches and public buildings etc. if you're unstable and gonna kill your self why not go out noticed and known instead of some no body? The media has become a catalyst for this problem.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48807582]The US has the 13th highest firearms related death rate, at 10.64 per 100,000, and the highest of any developed country. The next highest developed country is Finland, with 3.64 per 100,000. I'd say that's a pretty big problem.[/QUOTE]
We definitely do have a problem, but guns aren't the root cause
What is the root cause is often argued about, but the places with the absolute worst incidences tend to be poverty stricken areas plagued by drug and gang warfare, so I'm inclined to look in that general area for my answers
LA and Detroit are the most well known examples, but there's similar problems in places like New York, D.C. New Orleans, and I think St. Louis but I'm not sure
Gun legislation has consistently failed to show improvement for these places for over forty years now, the first of the major gun restrictions starting sometime in the seventies, and in some cases have actually made things [I]worse[/I], such as D.C in the mid seventies or thereabouts
[QUOTE=Lebofly;48807643]Doesn't matter how low it is, the kids that get killed aren't just another number in your statistic. They have families and I'm sure they'd like to be in a safe learning environment without the fear of someone walking in with a gun. I've never had that fear in my life and I can't imagine it being pleasing.
But truth be told I don't really care I'm just stating my opinion on the matter it's nothing personal[/QUOTE]
I've never had that fear either. you're literally more likely to die getting struck by lightning than you are to die in a mass shooting
[QUOTE=Sitkero;48807696]We definitely do have a problem, but guns aren't the root cause
What is the root cause is often argued about, but the places with the absolute worst incidences tend to be poverty stricken areas plagued by drug and gang warfare, so I'm inclined to look in that general area for my answers
LA and Detroit are the most well known examples, but there's similar problems in places like New York, D.C. New Orleans, and I think St. Louis but I'm not sure
Gun legislation has consistently failed to show improvement for these places for over forty years now, the first of the major gun restrictions starting sometime in the seventies, and in some cases have actually made things [I]worse[/I], such as D.C in the mid seventies or thereabouts[/QUOTE]
But new york has lower than average gun crimes.
[url]http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-study-is-latest-to-find-that-higher-rates-of-gun-ownership-lead-to-higher-rates-of-violent-crime/[/url]
[QUOTE=butre;48807761]I've never had that fear either. you're literally more likely to die getting struck by lightning than you are to die in a mass shooting[/QUOTE]
or crushed by a vending machine while being eaten by a shark
[editline]2nd October 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;48807763]But new york has lower than average gun crimes.
[url]http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-study-is-latest-to-find-that-higher-rates-of-gun-ownership-lead-to-higher-rates-of-violent-crime/[/url][/QUOTE]
But I'm sure higher than average stab crimes
and muggings
[QUOTE=Lebofly;48807650]Yeah definitely we can expect to see more black market weapons being sold but that being said it won't be as easy for the average joe to get his hands on it (Are most of these cases legally owned guns?)[/QUOTE]
Actually no, most shooting sprees are illegal obtained guns.
So no, it wouldn't help and you end up penalizing the many because of the few.
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;48807763]But new york has lower than average gun crimes.
[url]http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-study-is-latest-to-find-that-higher-rates-of-gun-ownership-lead-to-higher-rates-of-violent-crime/[/url][/QUOTE]
Then I'm wrong about New York on that count
[QUOTE=Singo;48805930]Obama using a mass shooting to push his agenda once again.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with using a tragedy to address a problem if the tragedy is related to the problem being solved.
Invading Iraq over 9-11 is stupid. Reforming the drug laws after the 4000% markup scandal is not. Rethinking gun regulation after a series of horrific shootings is not.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.