US inequality at historic high, surpassing Roaring ’20s - Polidicks

[quote]our current model of capitalism doesn't work because of human nature, plain and simple(hell you might say that about capitalism in general, since it requires eternal economical growth, which is impossible).[/quote] How do you mean it doesn't work? Human nature is a shite argument. [QUOTE=Wizards Court;42155103]for instance brazil is one the few countries to attempt something similiar to negative income tax in the form of bolsa familia, and its actually working VERY well in getting people out of extreme poverty, over 80% of the people that recieve it, did managed to greatly improve their situation, but we still face idiots(a sizable part of the middle class) saying "THOSE DAMN LAZY POORS!1".[/QUOTE] I think that a negative income tax (or citizens income) is massively beneficial.

that photo in the op is sad as fuck

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42153513]Raising minimum wages won't solve poverty. Yes raising wages means people can buy more things. You just don't realize that prices are going to rise as well and you will more or less end up back at stage 1.[/QUOTE] Well its either we start raising the minimum wage with inflation that's already happening or get super poor like we have now.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;42154674]welfare is the solution to the problem[/QUOTE] On one hand the wealthy hoarding so much wealth while people are going hungry is not good but on the other we don't want to have a class of people dependent on welfare with no incentive to be productive. I don't view this as a fault of capitalism. Its a cultural issue. Certain people don't give a shit about the poor or have any interest in the welfare of their fellow countrymen. There also too many people completely happy to live off of handouts.

I honestly would rather be dead than red. Socialism doesn't work. Ask anyone who lived through the USSR and remembers the bread lines. The quality of things were terrible. (Look at soviet cars of the era). There wasn't enough food... I can go on. There is as reason why that system collapsed. There is also a reason why countries that have some form of capitalism are a lot more prosperous than those that don't. I personaly support a flat tax. When you lower taxes, people have more disposable income (History tells us this). Lower interest rates to encourage investing. Even though any economist will tell you that raising minimum wage will raise unemployment, I do support raising the minimum wage to the point where if you work full time at minimum, you won't be in poverty. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;42158452]On one hand the wealthy hoarding so much wealth while people are going hungry is not good but on the other we don't want to have a class of people dependent on welfare with no incentive to be productive.[/QUOTE] I don't like this assumption. I'm not sure why people have this early 1900s view of wealthy people where they laugh at the misfortune of peasents. Just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they don't give a shit about poor people. If you started a company with your blood sweat and tears, what is your motivation to continue to work hard if your money is taken away from you because "there are poor people that have less money than you"? There are extremes are both sides of the fence there, but wealth and success =/= hatred & superiority for /over poor people

[QUOTE=lavacano;42156324]So freeze the prices of goods. [/QUOTE] :v:

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]I personaly support a flat tax. When you lower taxes, people have more disposable income (History tells us this).[/QUOTE] But then education, national infrastructure, and our prized military would suffer greatly.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;42158551]But then education, national infrastructure, and our prized military would suffer greatly.[/QUOTE] That is somewhat debatble. It all depends on what the percentage of the income tax would be.

[QUOTE=Kuro.;42157449] But look on the bright side: when this untenable system eventually collapses out from under them and takes the world economy with it, you can take solace in the fact that the ruling elite's wealth with be just as worthless as yours. That right there is true equality and the greatest example of karma ever.[/QUOTE] Wait what. There is no bright side. If the system collapses, everything will go down the shitter. Everything

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]Even though any economist will tell you that raising minimum wage will raise unemployment, I do support raising the minimum wage to the point where if you work full time at minimum, you won't be in poverty.[/quote] Raising minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment though. The extra money people have will be spent on goods and services, in turn creating jobs that people laid off will go into. What will happen however is inflation.

I love when FP tries to argue economics

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158559]That is somewhat debatble. It all depends on what the percentage of the income tax would be.[/QUOTE] I have no doubt it'd be less income than what the current system nets.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]I honestly rather would rather be dead than red. Socialism doesn't work. Ask anyone who lived through the USSR and remembers the bread lines. The quality of things were terrible. (Look at soviet cars of the era). There wasn't enough food... I can go on. There is as reason why that system collapsed. There is also a reason why countries that have some form of capitalism are a lot more prosperous than those that don't.[/QUOTE] Socialism doesn't necessarily mean a Command Economy and Military State. [QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476] I personaly support a flat tax. When you lower taxes, people have more disposable income (History tells us this). Lower interest rates to encourage investing. [/QUOTE] Shift the tax burden onto lower and middle-income earners? The rich already get enough tax breaks from donating to politicians and knowing all the loopholes. [QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476] I don't like this assumption. I'm not sure why people have this early 1900s view of wealthy people where they laugh at the misfortune of peasents.[/QUOTE] I still see a shit ton of [URL="http://gawker.com/5854540/top-foreclosure-firm-threw-homeless+themed-halloween-bash] this stuff[/URL]

[QUOTE=Van-man;42157468]It might not be as capitalistic on the surface, but with how popular and also legal bribing politicians is, i'd strongly disagree with you.[/QUOTE] Uhh, there's really no argument you can make at all. The amount of government intervention is MUCH larger now than it was in the 20's, that's a fact, not an opinion. [editline]11th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;42158344]Well its either we start raising the minimum wage with inflation that's already happening or get super poor like we have now.[/QUOTE] That's a hugely false dichotomy. There have been plenty of times in our past when the minimum wage was less than it is now and our economy was doing better.

[QUOTE=OrDnAs;42158560]Wait what. There is no bright side. If the system collapses, everything will go down the shitter. Everything[/QUOTE] Things always get worse before they get better. Even if the world ends up in ruins economically, it will be the opportunity for a new start, hopefully with a new system that gets rid of all the loopholes and cheats that allowed the big fat cats to amass so much wealth and influence at the expense of everyone else's well being. And the economic system itself likely won't be the only thing co-opted by the corporate elite that crumbles. The government will likely implode on itself as well, which gives the people the best opportunity to fix that mess as well by removing corporate money and influence, among other things. That's as bright a side as such a scenario can have, if you ask me. Shit always hits the fan before things get better, and the shit is dangling dangerously over one right now.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42158573]Raising minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment though.[/QUOTE] Labor, like other goods, has a supply and demand curve. I've attempted to make a crude representation of this. [IMG]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5439/br75.jpg[/IMG] $7.25 per hour is the current federal minimum wage. Some states have raised their minimum wage. Where the quantity demanded and quantity supplied lines intersect, that means the market is in equilibrium. If the government installed a price floor let's say at $15 per hour, this creates a surplus of employees because the quantity demanded is less than before, but the quanitity supplied is higher than before. This means there are more people willing to work at $15/hr, but there is a lower demand for labor at $15/hr. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;42158647]Shift the tax burden onto lower and middle-income earners? The rich already get enough tax breaks from donating to politicians and knowing all the loopholes.[/QUOTE] That isn't what a flat tax is at all. If you made taxes 10% across the board, the rich still pay more. If you have two people that make $50,000 and $500,000, the person that makes 500k still puts more in the pot than the person that makes 50k. And another thing, you can only, by law, donate $2,000 to a politician. All types of donating can be written off of your taxes, rich or poor. The ultra rich often pay a lower percentage in taxes than their tax bracket because once you become a CEO, or something of the sort, you don't always get paid like most regular people. Sometimes you get paid with corporate shares, ect, which are taxed at a different rate than dollars.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]I honestly would rather be dead than red. Socialism doesn't work. Ask anyone who lived through the USSR and remembers the bread lines. The quality of things were terrible. (Look at soviet cars of the era). There wasn't enough food... I can go on. There is as reason why that system collapsed. There is also a reason why countries that have some form of capitalism are a lot more prosperous than those that don't. I personaly support a flat tax. When you lower taxes, people have more disposable income (History tells us this). Lower interest rates to encourage investing. Even though any economist will tell you that raising minimum wage will raise unemployment, I do support raising the minimum wage to the point where if you work full time at minimum, you won't be in poverty. I don't like this assumption. I'm not sure why people have this early 1900s view of wealthy people where they laugh at the misfortune of peasents. Just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they don't give a shit about poor people. If you started a company with your blood sweat and tears, what is your motivation to continue to work hard if your money is taken away from you because "there are poor people that have less money than you"? There are extremes are both sides of the fence there, but wealth and success =/= hatred & superiority for /over poor people[/QUOTE] Get a load of this shit. [QUOTE=sgman91;42158671]Uhh, there's really no argument you can make at all. The amount of government intervention is MUCH larger now than it was in the 20's, that's a fact, not an opinion.[/QUOTE] Yes I can, because that means if you have lots of dole to spend, you can make your opinion stand out louder.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]I honestly would rather be dead than red. Socialism doesn't work.[/QUOTE] There is a difference between instituting socialist economic policies and ensuring that a stable, consuming middle class exists to fuel your capitalist system. If most of your population only makes enough in wages to buy food, clothes, and shelter then no one is buying consumer goods, which leads to businesses failing. I think history has shown that capitalism is the most successful form of economics we have tried so far but I don't believe it's perfect and a little bit of socialism helps from time to time. [QUOTE=UziXxX;42158476]I personaly support a flat tax.[/QUOTE] A flat tax is a de facto regressive tax. If Joe makes $30,000 a year and Bob makes $3,000,000 a year, 8% of their money being taken by the government makes a far larger dent in Joe's spending ability than Bobs.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158800] That isn't what a flat tax is at all. If you made taxes 10% across the board, the rich still pay more. If you have two people that make $50,000 and $500,000, the person that makes 500k still puts more in the pot than the person that makes 50k. And another thing, you can only, by law, donate $2,000 to a politician. All types of donating can be written off of your taxes, rich or poor. The ultra rich often pay a lower percentage in taxes than their tax bracket because once you become a CEO, or something of the sort, you don't always get paid like most regular people. Sometimes you get paid with corporate shares, ect, which are taxed at a different rate than dollars.[/QUOTE] If a rich person's expenses compared to their income is anywhere near proportional to someone in poverty, they probably no business being rich.

[QUOTE=Van-man;42158825]Yes I can, because that means if you have lots of dole to spend, you can make your opinion stand out louder.[/QUOTE] Rich people using the government for their advantage isn't capitalism. That is actually a great example of what capitalism isn't.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;42158800] And another thing, you can only, by law, donate $2,000 to a politician.[/QUOTE] Have you never heard of PAC's? Do you know how much hundreds of thousands Romney and Obama received from interest groups during the 2012 election? [QUOTE=UziXxX;42158800]The ultra rich often pay a lower percentage in taxes than their tax bracket because once you become a CEO, or something of the sort, you don't always get paid like most regular people. Sometimes you get paid with corporate shares, ect, which are taxed at a different rate than dollars.[/QUOTE] When people say loopholes this is usually what they mean.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42158890]Rich people using the government for their advantage isn't capitalism. That is actually a great example of what capitalism isn't.[/QUOTE] That [I]IS [/I]the result of capitalism. You can't say it isn't, when it is. Doesn't work that way. Also lol @ flat tax. The worst tax platform in modern time.

And this is why the monetary system will fail as we march into the future. We can either eliminate the middle class all together and admit defeat as the serf class. Or we can figure out something slightly more intelligent than that.

[QUOTE=Van-man;42158940]That [I]IS [/I]the result of capitalism. You can't say it isn't, when it is. Doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE] No it's not? Literally every economic system has political corruption as a possibility (including socialism, communism, etc.). Any government intervention, which that is an example of, is a disruption of pure capitalism. In any industry, the most regulated it is the more corruption there is.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42158964]No it's not? Literally every economic system has political corruption as a possibility (including socialism, communism, etc.). Any government intervention, which that is an example of, is a disruption of pure capitalism.[/QUOTE] The issue with capitalism is that it literally give no fucks about the people who don't want to be rich. Slowly but surely everyone who isn't a massive materialistic prick will die out. Do you really want that?

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42158984]The issue with capitalism is that it literally give no fucks about the people who don't want to be rich. Slowly but surely everyone who isn't a massive materialistic prick will die out. Do you really want that?[/QUOTE] Capitalism has led to the least suffering to have ever existed in human history. From what I've seen, the largest and most powerful governments on the planet are also the biggest mass murderers of all time (Nazi German, Communist Russia, Communist China, etc.)

[QUOTE=sgman91;42159003]Capitalism has led to the least suffering to have ever existed in human history.[/QUOTE] So has slavery, but at a certain point along the line we decided that it wasn't morally feasible anymore.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42159014]So has slavery, but at a certain point along the line we decided that it wasn't morally feasible anymore.[/QUOTE] I'm sure the slaves would disagree. I'm talking about everyone. Remember that we define poverty as a percent, not a flat number. So saying that people live in poverty is almost useless when comparing to past times.

Less an issue of capitalism itself but abuse of it's ideals. It's extremely simple to look at a person wrapped round the wall of a bank with student loans to find a job and work harder with their education, but in this economy it's a mere excuse. I blame more of this on greedy corporate heads and bad government management. Much of this is the work of Laiseez Faire based attitudes towards markets. [The computer craze in the late 20th century being part of that] It was also this computer craze and Laiseez Faire that sent the Asian markets into a black hole. In my opinion, capitalism is the best system to stride for, but making sure it's not just a giant facade is the big difference and the U.S. is right now severely lacking in this aspect.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42159022]I'm sure the slaves would disagree. I'm talking about everyone.[/QUOTE] I'm sure poor people would disagree with you too. Both of us are right in our own respects. Yes, Capitalism got us here, but so did slavery. Just because something has contributed to our progress doesn't mean we should cling on to it forever. If it was many thousands of years ago, you would be the one saying "But look how far bartering has gotten us!" and I would be the one telling you that it isn't feasible anymore, and that we need a newer and more intelligent system to deal with our resource distribution. (Please note that I do not advocate relinquishing resources to the state as in communism)