After the CS:GO betting scandal, Nick Xenophon wants tougher video game laws to combat teen gambling - Polidicks

Just don't tell your kids your credit card password or don't hand them it at all. Simplr as that. I can see that this is a result of parents unable to stop their kids from using their credit card. They don't think its their fault and want someone to blame.

[QUOTE=Lollipoopdeck;50806410]I still don't get why no company thought to contact valve and actually try to get a legal gambling site because its pretty fucking obvious that valve profited as much if not more than the sites.[/QUOTE] Valve sat there making massive money with their hands completely clean. They knew exactly what was going on yet they were happy to wait as long as possible to do anything about it. I think it's ridiculous they're going to get away with this.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50806463]Valve sat there making massive money with their hands completely clean. They knew exactly what was going on yet they were happy to wait as long as possible to do anything about it. I think it's ridiculous they're going to get away with this.[/QUOTE] Valve is part of the CSGOLotto case as a defendant though? Even though I don't expect anything to happen to them.

[QUOTE=RockyTV;50806442]Just don't tell your kids your credit card password or don't hand them it at all. Simplr as that. I can see that this is a result of parents unable to stop their kids from using their credit card. They don't think its their fault and want someone to blame.[/QUOTE] Yeah, kids about 12 and above have debit cards, you know that right? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=FezianEmperor;50806484]Valve is part of the CSGOLotto case as a defendant though? Even though I don't expect anything to happen to them.[/QUOTE] They are, but do you expect the owners of CSGO lotto and Valve to get any worse than a slap on the wrist? If you've got money in situations like this then you're above the law, it's a shame but it's how it is.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50806499]Yeah, kids about 12 and above have debit cards, you know that right?[/QUOTE] Different countries so different rules apply. Anyway, steam top up cards exist so it's a moot point regardless, kids don't need to have a credit or debit card to be able to buy keys or cases, or skins ect.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50804181]Whatever happened to a thing called parental oversight?[/QUOTE] I agree with you for the most part. Dumb nanny state laws like not being able to let your kid walk to the park alone or the banning of certain foods because they cause "childhood obesity" are terrible. Unfortunately though, the internet has shattered the ability of parents to watch over much of what their children can access. I don't really support more laws on this front, but I don't see a good solution either.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50803902]glad to see this issue being pushed in the Australian parliament, it definitely is an issue that needs addressing[/QUOTE] It's not like the Australian government has ever been competent when it comes to videogames. They're going to do something stupid.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50804181]Whatever happened to a thing called parental oversight?[/QUOTE] When I'm a parent I'm going to give my kid a credit card and give them access to vegasslotsonline.com and then get mad when they start gambling with my credit card.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50806852]When I'm a parent I'm going to give my kid a credit card and give them access to vegasslotsonline.com and then get mad when they start gambling with my credit card.[/QUOTE]Your attempt at satire only shows how ignorant you are.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50806463]Valve sat there making massive money with their hands completely clean. They knew exactly what was going on yet they were happy to wait as long as possible to do anything about it. I think it's ridiculous they're going to get away with this.[/QUOTE] Only transactions that happen on Steam itself will get the "Valve Tax". Trading items and money outside of Steam means it bypasses the "Valve Tax", and Valve sees no money. Valve certainly did not gain money from third-party websites. If anything they lost money as people stopped spending money on their service and started spending it on other services, yet they still had to run and maintain the trading servers. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=rndgenerator;50806875]Your attempt at satire only shows how ignorant you are.[/QUOTE] Elaborate. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=rndgenerator;50805953]It's like saying why make streets safer if people can just instead invest in guns and self defense classes.[/QUOTE] I agree. There should be severe child abuse punishments for neglectful parents who allow their underaged children to gamble with the parent's money.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50805453]Store credit can be counted for actual money and there are ways to exchange your steam money for USD cash unlike "ball machines" or vending machines, you can't sell those things to get more money. Skins you can, and there's an entire economy with skins which valve directly knows about Valve also helps by putting prices on it by limiting your chances of getting rare skins. An AWP asimove won't drop from the sky on your first spin, because Valve knew prior that would be a rare skin. Shitty skins (mostly those puke green ones) have a higher spit rate than something like a Gali chatterbox. Valve deliberately limits this and sets a fictional price on the weapon at hand, yes they're contributing to this.[/QUOTE] You just made me think of this - player sells skin in CSGO, uses obtained store credit to buy a game, then gets a refund via Steam. They've just turned the skin into money, in a sense.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50806499] They are, but do you expect the owners of CSGO lotto and Valve to get any worse than a slap on the wrist? If you've got money in situations like this then you're above the law, it's a shame but it's how it is.[/QUOTE] Did i hallucinate the part where Valve is making deliberate steps to completely bar those dudes from using the Steam API which is going to kill CS:GO gambling sites? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Aetna;50806895]You just made me think of this - player sells skin in CSGO, uses obtained store credit to buy a game, then gets a refund via Steam. They've just turned the skin into money, in a sense.[/QUOTE] Huh? How? When you refund a game on steam you just get store credit back, not real money.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50805453]Store credit can be counted for actual money and there are ways to exchange your steam money for USD cash[/QUOTE] No, it is not, in the same way that gift cards are not money. I can not take a $100 Amazon gift card, walk into a bank, and pay my debts or make a down-payment on a house with it. I also cannot do this with Steam FunBux. One can indeed sell a gift card for some money but I can sell anything I own for money in the same exact fashion. This computer I'm using for can be traded for money but that does not make it money. Please do not lie. [QUOTE=fruxodaily;50805453]unlike "ball machines" or vending machines, you can't sell those things to get more money. Skins you can, and there's an entire economy with skins which valve directly knows about[/QUOTE] For this, I'm assuming that you mean this: [t]http://image.made-in-china.com/43f34j00rjTEotcPRVqa/Toy-or-Bouncing-Ball-Vending-Machine-Toy-Vendors-SAM60-S2-.jpg[/t] If you do mean this, then I could easily drop a quarter, get a random thing in the ball machine, and sell it off on Etsy or Craigslist or something to some sucker who thinks it's worth a lot. The company that made the machine, the company that made the toys, and the company that owns and provides access to the machine are not responsible for this use. This is not gambling any more than CS:GO is gambling. [QUOTE=fruxodaily;50805453]Valve also helps by putting prices on it by limiting your chances of getting rare skins. An AWP asimove won't drop from the sky on your first spin, because Valve knew prior that would be a rare skin. Shitty skins (mostly those puke green ones) have a higher spit rate than something like a Gali chatterbox. Valve deliberately limits this and sets a fictional price on the weapon at hand, yes they're contributing to this.[/QUOTE] The company makes some things rarer than others, therefore they condone gambling? Where are your class-actions against the hundreds of blind-bag makers and trading card makers? They too market to children, and they too have some cards or statues or toys that are rarer than others. You take your money, buy the item, and hope you get something good. Now you have like a foil Blue-Eyes-White-Dragon or whatever that goes for over $100 on Ebay because the company that manufactured the card knew it would be rarer on purpose. This is also "setting the price" because the rarer things are worth more! Guess what buddy, under your definitions these are encouraging childhood gambling and should be treated just as harshly as Valve supposedly should be. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=AaronM202;50806928]Did i hallucinate the part where Valve is making deliberate steps to completely bar those dudes from using the Steam API which is going to kill CS:GO gambling sites? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] Huh? How? When you refund a game on steam you just get store credit back, not real money.[/QUOTE] It actually determines and tries to make a chargeback based on the source of the transaction. If you pay for a game with a credit or debit card, it credits that. If you use in-store credit, it credits that. If you use a mix, it falls back on in-store fun bux.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50806928]Did i hallucinate the part where Valve is making deliberate steps to completely bar those dudes from using the Steam API which is going to kill CS:GO gambling sites? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] Huh? How? When you refund a game on steam you just get store credit back, not real money.[/QUOTE] Oh damn, I've never done a refund, that makes sense. And now that I check there's no conceivable way to transfer wallet cash back to a card/account.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50804539]Oh, so you're just saying it's imaginary money at this point and they already made their profit? Gee, that sounds an awful lot like how you pay Konami up front for pachinko balls, which is what you use in their pachislot machines instead of real money to get around Japanese gambling laws.[/QUOTE] Get back to me when you can exchange pachinko balls for video games, music/art/etc. software, dlc, and movies. Also get back to me when you find out where Valve condoned websites that were created deliberately to circumvent and abuse the current system in place for scam purposes. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50804539]Just because some make-believe wallet serves as a buffer between your real cash and the act of gambling doesn't negate that they're profiting handsomely off of gambling.[/QUOTE] They profit when you put funds in the wallet but beyond that, they make 0 dollars. The money you put into your steam wallet for whatever purpose is the max amount of money they receive from you. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50804539]Or is Valve exempt from the contempt we give Konami because "Gaben/PCMR/they made Half-Life once" or whatever?[/QUOTE] Get back to me when Valve: - Cuts a video game short resulting in a massive amount of cut and missing content. - Cancels all of their planned video game lineups so they can focus entirely on loophole-gambling and mobile gaming, including a game they just announced from one of their most beloved employees/teams which was almost guaranteed to be a massive success due to the insane media attention it got thanks to a genius marketing tactic. - Starts Orwell style spying and controlling employees actions and emails, including harassment and punch cards, resulting in low morale and a hellish work environment. - Bars their most famous and loved employee from an awards show out of pure spite and continuously lying about you firing him until he's finally left. - And repeatedly, metaphorically, spits on their entire fanbase and all of their employees continuously over the course of many many years. Then we'll talk about whats fair. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50806938] It actually determines and tries to make a chargeback based on the source of the transaction. If you pay for a game with a credit or debit card, it credits that. If you use in-store credit, it credits that. If you use a mix, it falls back on in-store fun bux.[/QUOTE] Hm. In any event, you cant actually buy microtransaction items using a credit/debit card, only with store credit, right? I actually totally forget because i dont buy that crap. Even then the way the dude described it still wouldnt work. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Aetna;50806956]Oh damn, I've never done a refund, that makes sense. And now that I check there's no conceivable way to transfer wallet cash back to a card/account.[/QUOTE] Yeah.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50806938] For this, I'm assuming that you mean this: [t]http://image.made-in-china.com/43f34j00rjTEotcPRVqa/Toy-or-Bouncing-Ball-Vending-Machine-Toy-Vendors-SAM60-S2-.jpg[/t] If you do mean this, then I could easily drop a quarter, get a random thing in the ball machine, and sell it off on Etsy or Craigslist or something to some sucker who thinks it's worth a lot. The company that made the machine, the company that made the toys, and the company that owns and provides access to the machine are not responsible for this use. This is not gambling any more than CS:GO is gambling.[/QUOTE] These aren't rigged to fail 90% of the time and you also get what you pay for you get something 100% of the time minus the times the mechanism itself fails to operate. You are garuntee'd to win. You pay to get a random toy, maybe even an occasional rare one. CSGO gambling (websites, I should point out) is purposely rigged against the user to such an absurd degree that rakes in more profit than loss. With quarter machines, there is a guaranteed linear loss/gain based on the cost of the toy (Lets say 5c to produce) and a quarter (25c). You don't pay 100$ and get either 1$ or 150$ back.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50806987]These aren't rigged to fail 90% of the time and you also get what you pay for you get something 100% of the time minus the times the mechanism itself fails to operate. You are garuntee'd to win. You pay to get a random toy, maybe even an occasional rare one. CSGO gambling system that is purposely rigged against the user to such an absurd degree that rakes in more profit than loss. With quarter machines, there is a guaranteed linear loss/gain based on the cost of the toy (Lets say 5c to produce) and a quarter (25c). You don't pay 100$ and get either 1$ or 150$ back.[/QUOTE] Okay im kind of confused by this analogy. Are you arguing for or against the GSGO system being gambling or rigged or whatever.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50807033]Okay im kind of confused by this analogy. Are you arguing for or against the GSGO system being gambling.[/QUOTE] I'm just saying that the two can't be compared to eachother. They are two completely different systems. Gambling needs to have potential profit/loss for it to be gambling. Outside of that though, pretty much all gambling is rigged though, to some degree, I don't really agree with gambling to begin with outside of casino's.

I don't understand why it matters whether gambling on CSGO items yields "real" money or not. Would it make a difference if actual casinos gave yachts, cars or jewelry instead of cash? The point is that, either way, it gives an incentive to play by paying actual money and then creates an addictive loop when the victim tries to regain his losses which gets bigger the more the law of large numbers comes into effect. Being able to win a high amount of cash if you get lucky never was the issue with gambling. In the case of steam, there are plenty of incentives when it comes to gambling. It's not limited to skins, with steam bucks you can get 60$ games for free, or even costly steam hardware. In the eyes of a kid those can be much more attractive than some abstract amount of money.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50807050] Outside of that though, pretty much all gambling is rigged though, to some degree, I don't really agree with gambling to begin with outside of casino's.[/QUOTE] Any reason casinos get special privilege?

I'm going to assume that I confused GSGO gambling with the gambling websites though THOSE websites are rigged and not similar to toy machines Opening crates, I'm not even sure about. You see what you can get and pay for a linear amount, and that's what you get. Only issue is that people start gambling with what the crates produce.

combined with the already superhyped industry of gambling in this country, knowing that Xenophon now has a member in the lower house and the current clusterfuck that is federal parliament, he might just get it through if the Libs start some gambling industry reforms. But this is not the way to go about it. Hell, we have a game in Australia that is played on our equivalent of veteran's day (ANZAC Day, April 25th) where 2 20 cent coins are flipped in the air and people bet on whether it will land with either 2 heads or 2 tails or even 1 head and tail. If Xenophon is so gung-ho about pushing such legislation, there better be some widescale commissions or industry input to make sure that it doesn't end up screwing any part of the video gaming industry, that's already anaemic after any sort of public funding or grants in regards to the industry were phased out.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50807075]Any reason casinos get special privilege?[/QUOTE] Personally that's just my bias. Leave gambling to gambling locations. I don't agree with lottery tickets either cause they're blatantly rigged as fuck. Though I don't think those should be banned or anything crazy.

[QUOTE=_Axel;50807071]I don't understand why it matters whether gambling on CSGO items yields "real" money or not. Would it make a difference if actual casinos gave yachts, cars or jewelry instead of cash? The point is that, either way, it gives an incentive to play by paying actual money and then creates an addictive loop when the victim tries to regain his losses which gets bigger the more the law of large numbers comes into effect. Being able to win a high amount of cash if you get lucky never was the issue with gambling. In the case of steam, there are plenty of incentives when it comes to gambling. It's not limited to skins, with steam bucks you can get 60$ games for free, or even costly steam hardware. In the eyes of a kid those can be much more attractive than some abstract amount of money.[/QUOTE] Sounds like the parents should limit their kid's access to M-rated games and credit cards then to prevent that happening. Amazon is not responsible when a kid uses mommy's credit card and lies about his identity, why should Steam be responsible? It being real money is incredibly important when considering gambling laws that deal primarily with money. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;50807076]I'm going to assume that I confused GSGO gambling with the gambling websites though THOSE websites are rigged and not similar to toy machines Opening crates, I'm not even sure about. You see what you can get and pay for a linear amount, and that's what you get. Only issue is that people start gambling with what the crates produce.[/QUOTE] I thought you were comparing crates to quarter machines to slot machines. You pay a dollar or whatever a key is worth, you always get a skin. Like a quarter machine. Entirely unlike a slot machine. Personally I'm not concerned with what illegal, third-party csgo gambling sites are doing, they're closed now anyway, or will be shortly.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50807101] I thought you were comparing crates to quarter machines to slot machines. You pay a dollar or whatever a key is worth, you always get a skin. Like a quarter machine. Entirely unlike a slot machine. Personally I'm not concerned with what illegal, third-party csgo gambling sites are doing, they're closed now anyway, or will be shortly.[/QUOTE] pretty much the same thing really I suppose they should make all items be equally winnable, that way there is no win/loss when it comes to the 'gambling' aspect of it. This would pretty much kill the gambling aspect of it. Exactly like a toy machine.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50807101]Sounds like the parents should limit their kid's access to M-rated games and credit cards then to prevent that happening. Amazon is not responsible when a kid uses mommy's credit card and lies about his identity, why should Steam be responsible? It being real money is incredibly important when considering gambling laws that deal primarily with money.[/QUOTE] I thought we already established that a credit card is not necessary to take part in steam gambling, due to gift cards existing? Also, limiting access to M-rated games can be rather ineffectual when most games are now bought online, which any kid can do using the aforementioned steam cards. It being real money is only important because of the way the law is worded. Now that toxic phenomenons like CSGO gambling are cropping up, a reform may be needed (which is the topic of the thread). The reason the law exist in the first place has nothing to do with the output being real money, except maybe to counter money-laundering schemes. What matters is that money is the input.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50807135]pretty much the same thing really I suppose they should make all items be equally winnable, that way there is no win/loss when it comes to the 'gambling' aspect of it. This would pretty much kill the gambling aspect of it. Exactly like a toy machine.[/QUOTE] Why? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;50807138]I thought we already established that a credit card is not necessary to take part in steam gambling, due to gift cards existing? Also, limiting access to M-rated games can be rather ineffectual when most games are now bought online, which any kid can do using the aforementioned steam cards. It being real money is only important because of the way the law is worded. Now that toxic phenomenons like CSGO gambling are cropping up, a reform may be needed (which is the topic of the thread). The reason the law exist in the first place has nothing to do with the output being real money, except maybe to counter money-laundering schemes. What matters is that money is the input.[/QUOTE] Good point, I hadn't considered the Steam Card thing. I guess the solution there is to treat Steam Cards as M rated games, which is totally reasonable. As for reforms, I still fundementally disagree, especially considering how utterly fucked video games are in Australia anyway. Moral police based on content, don't need moral police because some retarded kid blew all his cash on crates.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50807171]Why?[/QUOTE] Can't make a gambling community around stuff that all costs the same thing and is all equally as easy to obtain after all. it's already pretty much a quarter machine, may as well make it exactly like one.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50807171]Why? [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] Good point, I hadn't considered the Steam Card thing. I guess the solution there is to treat Steam Cards as M rated games, which is totally reasonable. As for reforms, I still fundementally disagree, especially considering how utterly fucked video games are in Australia anyway. Moral police based on content, don't need moral police because some retarded kid blew all his cash on crates.[/QUOTE] Well, to me restricting access to certain games that contain gambling in everything but name makes more sense than restricting content. If anything it's only logical that the ban on underage gambling would extend to video games rather than let those rings operate because of legal technicalities.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50806928]Did i hallucinate the part where Valve is making deliberate steps to completely bar those dudes from using the Steam API which is going to kill CS:GO gambling sites? [/QUOTE] Nope. Valve waited until they got caught to do that. In reality they let them last for months because they indirectly profited from them existing.