After the CS:GO betting scandal, Nick Xenophon wants tougher video game laws to combat teen gambling - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50807315]Nope. Valve waited until they got caught to do that. In reality they let them last for months because [/QUOTE] You mean until it was brought to their attention? [QUOTE=Rossy167;50807315]Nthey indirectly profited from them existing.[/QUOTE] [citation needed] They make $0 from these websites. I want you to run down for me, just so i know you know, and we're both on the same page, how Valve profits off the websites. What is the step-by-step of how to gamble CS:GO items.

I think that this is the dumbest non-issue that people have pretended to care about because it's trendy in years.

[QUOTE=phygon;50807347]I think that this is the dumbest non-issue that people have pretended to care about because it's trendy in years.[/QUOTE] Gambling is a legitimate issue and it can cripple people financially.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50807350]Gambling is a legitimate issue and it can cripple people financially.[/QUOTE] Yeah and if people actually cared about gambling then they would be getting mad at the sites that are much more of an issue (AKA the ones that deal with actual money online) that ALSO don't check for age. Item gambling isn't shit compared to the rest of the online gambling world, people just want to get mad at something [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;50806987]These aren't rigged to fail 90% of the time and you also get what you pay for you get something 100% of the time minus the times the mechanism itself fails to operate. You are garuntee'd to win. You pay to get a random toy, maybe even an occasional rare one. CSGO gambling (websites, I should point out) is purposely rigged against the user to such an absurd degree that rakes in more profit than loss. With quarter machines, there is a guaranteed linear loss/gain based on the cost of the toy (Lets say 5c to produce) and a quarter (25c). You don't pay 100$ and get either 1$ or 150$ back.[/QUOTE] Nothing is rigged, you just don't get as much as you put in on average. Betting has been happening for hundreds of thousands of years. This is no different than horse race betting. Nothing is fixed, nothing is rigged. It's just betting.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50807338]They make $0 from these websites. I want you to run down for me, just so i know you know, and we're both on the same page, how Valve profits off the websites. What is the step-by-step of how to gamble CS:GO items.[/QUOTE] Dude wants to gamble on website, needs skins to do so -> Buys crates/keys from Valve or buys skins directly on the steam market, Valve takes 15% Either way, Valve profits unless the person in question buys the skins through a third party website.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50807338]You mean until it was brought to their attention? [citation needed] They make $0 from these websites. I want you to run down for me, just so i know you know, and we're both on the same page, how Valve profits off the websites. What is the step-by-step of how to gamble CS:GO items.[/QUOTE] Valve [B]knew about the sites months[/b] before. Alos they make the money because to gamble you need skins and to get skins you need to buy crates and keys.

Call of Duty avoided all of this gambling mess by making the items in the crates non-tradable.

If you care about gambling but have no moral qualms about the concept of paying for crates that contain random items then you have been coaxed into a snafu because they're both equally gambling.

any video game legislation will be overly tough, out of focus and devoid of actual substance videogames may be a ten billion industry but theyre still seen by lawmakers as being for kids

[QUOTE=Rossy167;50807528]Valve [B]knew about the sites months[/b] before.[/QUOTE] Your word means nothing without a source on this, thank you. [QUOTE=Rossy167;50807528]Alos they make the money because to gamble you need skins and to get skins you need to buy crates and keys.[/QUOTE] Alright. Now, the problem is here, your point seems to be that they're fully aware of the sites that were deliberately designed to circumvent the marketplace so the owners could make a profit abusing the current system in place, something that indirectly can profit them sure, but invariably is out of their control and not using the systems they put in place specifically for their items which is a more up front way of making them money that has worked for years, and they let it go on because...? Think about it like this. The money spent by people on these gambling sites are paying for items they sell but is money they'll never see. They might get some profit from the people buying their items and selling them on these third party websites but then people are spending money for these items anyway, and since its not money added into a steam wallet, and since Valve cant take a cut, none of it goes to them. So, why would any company prefer that? Its the same reason a bunch of companies tried shutting down used game purchases, because they wouldnt get money off of it.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50807898]Your word means nothing without a source on this, thank you. Alright. Now, the problem is here, your point seems to be that they're fully aware of the sites that were deliberately designed to circumvent the marketplace so the owners could make a profit abusing the current system in place, something that indirectly can profit them sure, but invariably is out of their control and not using the systems they put in place specifically for their items which is a more up front way of making them money that has worked for years, and they let it go on because...?[/quote] Because it makes them money? You said it yourself. Why would they do anything about it if not for PR reasons? [Quote]Think about it like this. The money spent by people on these gambling sites are paying for items they sell but is money they'll never see. They might get some profit from the people buying their items and selling them on these third party websites but then people are spending money for these items anyway, and since its not money added into a steam wallet, and since Valve cant take a cut, none of it goes to them. So, why would any company prefer that? Its the same reason a bunch of companies tried shutting down used game purchases, because they wouldnt get money off of it.[/QUOTE] ...What? Why the fuck would gambling sites reduce demand for buyable items that profit Valve? They are not sites which give away items for free that people would have otherwise bought. They actually take more items than they give, which means people buy [I]more[/I] crates or items from the marketplace to gamble with, which means profits that Valve wouldn't have seen if these sites didn't exist, because they create additional demand. That's not "items those people would have bought anyway". I really don't get what's so hard to understand about this. That comparison with used games is stupid.

Crates in general should just be outlawed. They were toxic when they were first introduced in 2010 and they're still toxic now. That legislation hasn't caught up with this after six years despite everyone seeing within the first few [i]days[/i] [url=http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=300]how horrible an idea it was[/url] is astounding, and that so many other games have adopted the model is despicable. We should be [i]discouraging[/i] this behavior, not sitting idly by while [i]more[/i] games adopt it. Overwatch, Robocraft, Monday Night Combat, CS:GO... so many games these days have been marred by adopting a model that we should have killed in its infancy while it was still only in TF2 (back before the game was even free, mind you!) [QUOTE=AaronM202;50806971]- Cuts a video game short resulting in a massive amount of cut and missing content. - Cancels all of their planned video game lineups so they can focus entirely on loophole-gambling and mobile gaming, including a game they just announced from one of their most beloved employees/teams which was almost guaranteed to be a massive success due to the insane media attention it got thanks to a genius marketing tactic. - Starts Orwell style spying and controlling employees actions and emails, including harassment and punch cards, resulting in low morale and a hellish work environment. - Bars their most famous and loved employee from an awards show out of pure spite and continuously lying about you firing him until he's finally left. - And repeatedly, metaphorically, spits on their entire fanbase and all of their employees continuously over the course of many many years. [/QUOTE] Half-Life, Steam economy, they're just as bad in the opposite direction, might not have gone that far but Laidlaw certainly isn't happy, and they're [i]way[/i] ahead of you on that last one. Are we done here?

Aaron didn't read my posts as to why Valve has a part of this entire industry. Also he's basically just stating that OPSkins which was a huge part of turning the skins to cash and not buy skins to gamble with. But, then again whatever. It seems he's too far off put on trying to be right. Even if he is not.

[QUOTE=FezianEmperor;50810249]Aaron didn't read my posts as to why Valve has a part of this entire industry. Also he's basically just stating that OPSkins which was a huge part of turning the skins to cash and not buy skins to gamble with. But, then again whatever. It seems he's too far off put on trying to be right. Even if he is not.[/QUOTE]You're not right though. You're literally just wrong and swinging at bad targets trying to get a hit. [editline]1st August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239]Half-Life, Steam economy, they're just as bad in the opposite direction, might not have gone that far but Laidlaw certainly isn't happy, and they're [i]way[/i] ahead of you on that last one. Are we done here?[/QUOTE]Where did any dickhead see that Laidlaw isn't happy? The man is fucking old and has a family to tend to. If Valve wasn't making games but he was still getting paid, why not keep the high-paying job that literally prints money for zero effort? Instead he chose to actually retire. They're nowhere near as bad as Konami, they've not done half the shit Konami has and it is just ignorant to say otherwise. I really hope you're done and not planning to spout more garbage.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;50810260]Where did any dickhead see that Laidlaw isn't happy? The man is fucking old and has a family to tend to. If Valve wasn't making games but he was still getting paid, why not keep the high-paying job that literally prints money for zero effort? Instead he chose to actually retire. They're nowhere near as bad as Konami, they've not done half the shit Konami has and it is just ignorant to say otherwise. I really hope you're done and not planning to spout more garbage.[/QUOTE] Whatever other reasons he had, Laidlaw has gone on record stating that a major reason for his retirement was out of frustration that Valve wasn't doing anything with Half-Life. This is known.

[QUOTE=phygon;50807557]If you care about gambling but have no moral qualms about the concept of paying for crates that contain random items then you have been coaxed into a snafu because they're both equally gambling.[/QUOTE] My sister's boyfriend has a Charizard pokemon card which is worth over £500. Some pokemon cards are far rarer than other cards and some of them are of high value and some of very little. Should pokemon cards be banned as gambling? With regards to valve making money off it, the vast majority of all skin purchases, sales and trades happen through the trading interface and third party sites, meaning that the 15% steam tax is not being applied to these. Whilst some of the less experienced, small money traders will use the steam market to buy and sell, all of the people who are really spending any significant sums on their csgo inventory are doing it without going through valve. Valve profit off it in two ways: 1) the very small number of people who use the steam market for acquiring skins for gambling and 2) the inflation of item price due to gambling demand, although my own inventory hasn't seen any major shifts in value since the sites were shut down. I expect the reason Valve didn't act earlier is that the cost-benefit of the potential lawsuits to shut down these sites didn't make sense before it became a big deal and the risks to their image increased, seen as they were never actually financially liable for the gambling. I say all this knowing young people who've lost significant sums of money (to people in their teens) on gambling sites.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50804539]Oh, so you're just saying it's imaginary money at this point and they already made their profit? Gee, that sounds an awful lot like how you pay Konami up front for pachinko balls, which is what you use in their pachislot machines instead of real money to get around Japanese gambling laws. Just because some make-believe wallet serves as a buffer between your real cash and the act of gambling doesn't negate that they're profiting handsomely off of gambling. Or is Valve exempt from the contempt we give Konami because "Gaben/PCMR/they made Half-Life once" or whatever?[/QUOTE] Are you honestly comparing game skins to literally pachinko balls gambling with game skins isn't the intended fucking use, it's like gambling with teddy bears. If I buy a bag of doritos and use them as chips is PepsiCo responsible for illegal gambling?

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;50810260]You're not right though. You're literally just wrong and swinging at bad targets trying to get a hit. [/QUOTE] Care to elaborate? I've said how the marketplace is tied into Valve's operation in how they handled the gambling case of CSGO. They were the main hand from Kids buying Steam vouchers and buying skins to then gamble them on CS GO Betting websites, then turning said skins into cash via OPSkins. All of the information I've put in this thread has basis in the CSGOLotto lawsuit in Florida court. [URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/317712965/C-B-N-B-vs-Valve-Corporation-CSGO-Lotto-Trevor-Martin-and-Thomas-Cassell"]CSGOLotto Lawsuit[/URL]

[QUOTE=J!NX;50806987]These aren't rigged to fail 90% of the time and you also get what you pay for you get something 100% of the time minus the times the mechanism itself fails to operate. You are garuntee'd to win. You pay to get a random toy, maybe even an occasional rare one. CSGO gambling (websites, I should point out) is purposely rigged against the user to such an absurd degree that rakes in more profit than loss. With quarter machines, there is a guaranteed linear loss/gain based on the cost of the toy (Lets say 5c to produce) and a quarter (25c). You don't pay 100$ and get either 1$ or 150$ back.[/QUOTE] except when you buy a key you always get a skin just like with the toy ball the comparison isn't for the websites its for the crates, the websites are obviously bad.

Crates have been part of TF2, Dota 2 and CSGO for a very, very long time. Differences between gambling and crate unboxing is that in crates you get something in gambling you either lose or win something.

[QUOTE=FezianEmperor;50810349]Care to elaborate? I've said how the marketplace is tied into Valve's operation in how they handled the gambling case of CSGO. They were the main hand from Kids buying Steam vouchers and buying skins to then gamble them on CS GO Betting websites, then turning said skins into cash via OPSkins. All of the information I've put in this thread has basis in the CSGOLotto lawsuit in Florida court. [URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/317712965/C-B-N-B-vs-Valve-Corporation-CSGO-Lotto-Trevor-Martin-and-Thomas-Cassell"]CSGOLotto Lawsuit[/URL][/QUOTE] Valve won that part of it because it was bullshit, any sites could use the API. Do you sue facebook if a shady site uses freely available facebook widgets/logins? Valve isn't responsible for retards buying their products to misuse on a gambling system someone else set up. It's like if I made up a hip new gambling game centered around Disney Infinity Power Discs or Magic Cards. Some happen to be more valuable than others due to the effects and rarity, and they come from blind packs and can be traded, but they were never made to be used for gambling and neither Disney nor Wizards would be responsible if someone did use them for such. [editline]1st August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=FezianEmperor;50810377]Crates have been part of TF2, Dota 2 and CSGO for a very, very long time. Differences between gambling and crate unboxing is that in crates you get something in gambling you either lose or win something.[/QUOTE] that's what I'm talking about, the toy ball comparison works because it's about valve's crates, not the gamble sites. The gambling sites are 3rd party messes.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50810378]Valve won that part of it because it was bullshit, any sites could use the API. Do you sue facebook if a shady site uses freely available facebook widgets/logins? Valve isn't responsible for retards buying their products to misuse on a gambling system someone else set up. It's like if I made up a hip new gambling game centered around Disney Infinity Power Discs or Magic Cards. Some happen to be more valuable than others due to the effects and rarity, and they come from blind packs and can be traded, but they were never made to be used for gambling and neither Disney nor Wizards would be responsible if someone did use them for such. [/QUOTE] The SSA clearly states that every website using the API for commercial use is illegal. Yet OPSkins is still around. Valve just didn't want to get burnt by the firestorm arriving on their doorstep.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50810341]Are you honestly comparing game skins to literally pachinko balls gambling with game skins isn't the intended fucking use, it's like gambling with teddy bears. If I buy a bag of doritos and use them as chips is PepsiCo responsible for illegal gambling?[/QUOTE] Intended use? Pachinko balls only started being used in slot machines to get around Japanese gambling laws. It's the same exact principle. [QUOTE=FezianEmperor;50810377]Crates have been part of TF2, Dota 2 and CSGO for a very, very long time.[/QUOTE] They shouldn't have been. We should have snuffed them out when they were first conceived in the Mann-conomy Update but Valve was so much of an industry darling back then that no one wanted to seriously challenge them. People only bitched and moaned on forums and eventually accepted it. That's not how it should have gone. We ought to have never let them get away with it. Now it's an accepted standard in many games and too far ingrained into gaming's monetization "bag of tricks" to expunge.

Good luck trying to police this.

Pachinko balls are for pachinko machines. CSGO skins are for painting your weapon in a shooter game. They are not the same principle. The way pachinko balls are used to circumvent gambling is because it's used in an arcade tickets format, not because they were virtual items in a completely unrelated game type [editline]1st August 2016[/editline] The idea of getting a random toy for money wasn't made by valve. Literally same concept used in trading card games and toy vending machines for decades

[QUOTE=dark_console2;50810613]Good luck trying to police this.[/QUOTE] The entire CSGO gambling industry vanished over night, the lawmakers just realized the problems due to the news stories being covered in the media for the aftermath.

This isn't even an issue with video games; it's online media in general. It only blew up once the yootoobers started doing it

[QUOTE=Doozle;50804266]C'mon, honestly, was your mum sitting over your shoulder during your formative years, checking on all the YouTube channels you watched and what games you played? I'm doubting it. The websites should have some sort of way of verifying the age of customers, even if that means you can only use one in you're own territory. That's what betting sites do, and it's what these sites should have been doing when the items being wagered have real monetary value. Kids aren't allowed into bookies, and the onus is on the on the bookkeeper to make sure people underage aren't gambling. No one expects parents to stop their underage children from buying alcohol from dodgy shops. No one says "What happened to parental oversight?" when Mr Patel gets caught selling 20 B+H and a bottle of cheap vodka to 16 year olds. It's the shop's responsibility to not do business to children. It's exactly the same for sex shops, betting shops and gambling websites. This is really no different[/QUOTE] She was more or less. She had a key logger and a program that took screen shots every 5 seconds, knew exactly what I was doing, and immediately blocked sites she didn't approve of.

[QUOTE=certified;50803951]No no no no no. Look at Brazil where video games are taxed as gambling software.[/QUOTE] No matter how overprotective the Australian government is, they will never be like the Brazilian "tax everything till it's $1000 USD" government.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239] Half-Life[/QUOTE] Do i need to point out why this is stupid for the thousandth time this year, i feel like ive made the same post regarding this at least 10 to 20 times. [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1507632&p=50514735&viewfull=1#post50514735]Heres a few posts i and others made regarding it.[/url] Which is also ignoring the various leaks from the past year alone. Fucks sake dude just admit you're bitter you havent gotten Half-Life yet and thats why you think Valves the devil, we both know thats exactly what it is because thinking they're anywhere close to Konami and shitting on them harder than i see most people do for companies like EA, Acitvision, or Ubisoft is ridiculous. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239]Steam economy[/QUOTE] Elaborate. You know you cant just spout off some shit and expect people to just agree with you, you need to explain what your argument is. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239]they're just as bad in the opposite direction[/QUOTE] Nope. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239] might not have gone that far but Laidlaw certainly isn't happy[/QUOTE] Source. [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;50810239]and they're [i]way[/i] ahead of you on that last one. Are we done here?[/QUOTE] HA. Fucking when dude. I mean i'll be the first guy to admit they have problems (mostly in terms of communication both internally between employees and externally with their fanbase, and due to their workstructure some games with potential end up abandoned like Alien Swarm or Left 4 Dead, though we're getting L4D3 so thats moot i suppose) but i dont remember when Valve essentially told me to go fuck myself for being interested in one of their new games that they instantly cancelled because they dont want my money because its too hard. [QUOTE=_Axel;50809936]Because it makes them money? You said it yourself. Why would they do anything about it if not for PR reasons? ...What? Why the fuck would gambling sites reduce demand for buyable items that profit Valve? They are not sites which give away items for free that people would have otherwise bought. They actually take more items than they give, which means people buy [I]more[/I] crates or items from the marketplace to gamble with, which means profits that Valve wouldn't have seen if these sites didn't exist, because they create additional demand. That's not "items those people would have bought anyway". I really don't get what's so hard to understand about this. That comparison with used games is stupid.[/QUOTE] Maybe im just super dumb and ive completely misunderstood everything but people gamble for items on these websites, spending ludicrous amounts of money. I want to just point out that people who buy those items to gamble them away buy them on Steam. The money spent gambling for those items never sees Valve, when if those sites were removed, the only way to get those items would be through Valve, and thus would get them more money than if the gambling sites remained operational. How is that hard to understand?