UKIP forced to cancel Freepost address because of being quite full enough of shit already - Polidicks

[QUOTE=The mouse;44723703]What is it with the UAF and others acting like such immature cunts toward Ukip?[/QUOTE] is it the UAF doing this? i mean them being a bunch of self-hating antisemitic communist students and a de-facto branch of the SWP i could see it, but idk if they would be mailing dog shit and blood directly

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44727498]is it the UAF doing this? i mean them being a bunch of self-hating antisemitic communist students and a de-facto branch of the SWP i could see it, but idk if they would be mailing dog shit and blood directly[/QUOTE] I assumed it was, it's certainly congruent with their behavior toward Ukip. I can't imagine who else it would be considering how organised it was.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727458]I think that it's important that people realise that there is nothing actually that radical about Ukip policy either.[/QUOTE] Really? Because... [quote]Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.[/quote] ...seems pretty radical to me. Most people who already live in this country can't afford to do that, so how do you expect people who have just moved here to do that? Or how about... [quote]Scrap HS2, all green taxes and wind turbine subsidies.[/quote] Scrapping all of these would save money in the short term, but the long term economic and environmental effects would be massive. Just from looking at this list it seems like Ukip wants to return this country to the 1940's.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;44727568]Really? Because... Scrapping all of these would save money in the short term, but the long term economic and environmental effects would be massive. Just from looking at this list it seems like Ukip wants to return this country to the 1940's.[/QUOTE] Pretty consistent theme on their part, cuts in nearly all taxes including corporate, cuts in the DoH and such, yet somehow expanding the NHS to include free eye tests and dental and a 40% increase in defence spending. One wonders where the money for all of this would come from when the vast majority of taxes would be going down. It's a load of buzzwords glomped together. Don't get me wrong, I'd love free dental, eyetests (and prescriptions for that matter) but the truth is that there's not the money there, and simple arithmetic suggests that if we take "not enough money" and decrease it, we end up with "even less money". Also, while I am still not sure that I agree completely with HS2, abolishing it completely is ridiculous - a country needs to keep infrastructure up to par, and our rail lines are, to put it mildly, shameful.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;44727568]Really? Because... ...seems pretty radical to me. Most people who already live in this country can't afford to do that, so how do you expect people who have just moved here to do that? [/QUOTE] While I do disagree with it, I don't think it's all that radical. If they can afford to move here then they probably have the skills and experience to get a good job or already have a good job this means that they could afford it. I'd imagine the idea of the policy is to disincentive unskilled immigrants from coming here. [QUOTE=Wiggles;44727568]Or how about... Scrapping all of these would save money in the short term, but the long term economic and environmental effects would be massive. Just from looking at this list it seems like Ukip wants to return this country to the 1940's.[/QUOTE] While I disagree with this one also, I do think that too much money is invested in green energy when we should be investing it in Nuclear Power. The idea behind the policy is that the welfare of ordinary people should take priority over green energy which while I can see the logic I agree that it is fairly short sighted. [QUOTE=Terminutter;44727589]Pretty consistent theme on their part, cuts in nearly all taxes including corporate, cuts in the DoH and such, yet somehow expanding the NHS to include free eye tests and dental and a 40% increase in defence spending. [/QUOTE] Again this is from the 2010 manifesto iirc and is no longer official policy.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727592]While I disagree with this one also, I do think that too much money is invested in green energy when we should be investing it in Nuclear Power. The idea behind the policy is that the welfare of ordinary people should take priority over green energy which while I can see the logic I agree that it is fairly short sighted.[/QUOTE] I'll support green power like wind over shale gas and fracking, but the issue is that absolutely no party is supporting what we need, which is nuclear power - the Tories want it to be private, and we can see how little progress is being made on that part. (NIMBYs, idiots and the companies thinking that it might take too long to pay itself off - the initial investment is high, so fair point on their parts, I'll concede) I don't think UKIPs policies make economic sense, and they most certainly don't agree with my beliefs. I also disagree with them on the immigration front - more people is good, we don't want to end up like Japan with an imminent debt mountain and lack of healthcare and other public services due to a gargantuan elderly boom - we need to get more kids to try to balance the population out, and the short term solution to that is immigration. Edit: Oh my god, I just checked the 2014 manifesto and they oppose "excessive housing development". I'm sorry, but I fail to see how housing development is bad - we're running short, and it's increasingly hard for young families to find housing to rent let alone to buy. More housing is critical. They don't define what they mean by excessive, but I honestly don't know what to say.

[QUOTE=Terminutter;44727613] I also disagree with them on the immigration front - more people is good, we don't want to end up like Japan with an imminent debt mountain and lack of healthcare and other public services due to a gargantuan elderly boom - we need to get more kids to try to balance the population out, and the short term solution to that is immigration.[/QUOTE] No-one's making the argument against immigration, the argument is against unskilled immigration and making sure that those who do chose to come here have something to contribute.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727592]I'd imagine the idea of the policy is to disincentive unskilled immigrants from coming here.[/QUOTE] It seems way too heavy handed to "disincentive" unskilled workers. All of those things are almost certainly going to add up to a five figure cost every year, and when the average wage is ~£26,000 a year that just isn't sustainable. [QUOTE=The mouse;44727592]Again this is from the 2010 manifesto iirc and is no longer official policy.[/QUOTE] Then why is it still featured prominently on their website?

[quote]Then why is it still featured prominently on their website? [/quote] Really? because I couldn't find it anywhere.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727672]Really? because I couldn't find it anywhere.[/QUOTE] [t]http://i.imgur.com/ORF2zdg.jpg[/t] It's the first link under the first tab.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;44727695][t]http://i.imgur.com/ORF2zdg.jpg[/t] It's the first link under the first tab.[/QUOTE] I know, I posted that link before, but under the "issues" section, I couldn't find anything on defense or Eye tests.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727716]I know, I posted that link before, but under the "issues" section, I couldn't find anything on defense or Eye tests.[/QUOTE] Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about a different issue. Perhaps I should get an eye test.

[QUOTE=The mouse;44727629]No-one's making the argument against immigration, the argument is against unskilled immigration and making sure that those who do chose to come here have something to contribute.[/QUOTE] making an almost impossible paywall against almost all immigration is showing you're pretty much against it in any form.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;44727751]making an [B]almost impossible paywall[/B] against almost all immigration is showing you're pretty much against it in any form.[/QUOTE] what?

[QUOTE=NoDachi;44727751]making an almost impossible paywall against almost all immigration is showing you're pretty much against it in any form.[/QUOTE] I agree that it's a bad policy and I understand the flaws with it but if that were the case, they'd just say it.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;44727751]making an almost impossible paywall against almost all immigration is showing you're pretty much against it in any form.[/QUOTE] Yes because providing for yourself = impossible paywall.

[QUOTE=Reagy;44726622]They don't know what they are doing and just spout bullshit to get votes.[/QUOTE] British politics in a nutshell.

[QUOTE=Democracy;44727800]Yes because providing for yourself = impossible paywall.[/QUOTE] providing themselves with private healthcare and education while still having to pay full tax?

[quote]Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it[/quote] [QUOTE=Streecer;44727361]Great idea, scare of all those important foreign workers. [/QUOTE] If they're foreign [I]workers,[/I] shouldn't they be working, and thus be financially able to support themselves and their dependents? Like, why would they need benefits in that case?

[QUOTE=krakadict;44727785]what?[/QUOTE] They'd have to provide themselves with a house, private health insurance, private education and more for themselves and their dependants for five years. That's not affordable on an average wage, even assuming both get decent full time jobs - you're looking at a couple hundred thousand pounds -they'd need a mortgage for the house and jobs that covered the insurance, education and such in addition to the bills they already have and such, whilst paying full tax. Then if they wanted to be a citizen eventually, (which most do, and it is a critical part of integration into society) there are already costs, but I won't get into that, our citizenship test is flawed IMO, most born citizens wouldn't pass, it requires [i]a lot[/i] of studying. UKIP is basically saying you have to be loaded to get in - to the tune of a couple hundred thousand pounds if you manage to get a mortgage for property, more like four hundred thousand if not.

private education isn't cheap at the best of times i don't how the fuck you're supposed to cover healthcare with that as well

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44727830]If they're foreign [I]workers,[/I] shouldn't they be working, and thus be financially able to support themselves and their dependents? Like, why would they need benefits in that case?[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but I wouldn't move to a country for a job where getting ill, or trying to finding education would completely ruin my finances. I'd take myself to a better country. There is this overwhelming sense of arrogance in the UK that we're some desirable place to come and work with people all over the world queuing up to get in, that we can actually afford to scare away migrants which offer so much in a globalized economy. We simply won't be able to compete if we ruin what used to be a good country for foreign labour, talent and investment. Basically why even business minded Tories say our immigration is already too strict (pro-tip, if you read outside of UKIP leaflets you'll realize we have one of the tightest and most expensive immigration processes in the world) and harms our economy.

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44727830]If they're foreign [I]workers,[/I] shouldn't they be working, and thus be financially able to support themselves and their dependents? Like, why would they need benefits in that case?[/QUOTE] Private schools alone cost an average of ~£3400 [i]per term[/i], so that's ~£10k per year per child just for school. Then you have to factor in private healthcare payments, mortgage/rent payments, bills, food, etc. Like I said above, most families who already live in Britain can't afford to pay that, so it's absurd to think that all immigrants could pay that.

Best solution: workers can immigrate if they are able to secure employment beforehand. Perhaps a small immigration tax could be implemented so that employer benefit from hiring workers already in the country, reducing unemployment. Doesn't work so well for a job at your local supermarket but in practice there is no shortage of unqualified workers.

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44727830]If they're foreign [I]workers,[/I] shouldn't they be working, and thus be financially able to support themselves and their dependents? Like, why would they need benefits in that case?[/QUOTE] There's working and paying taxes, and then there's working, paying taxes and not receiving any of the benefits from the taxes until five years later, in the meanwhile being forced to pay exorbitant fees for private schooling, health care and such, whilst on an average wage. Then there's child benefit and stuff, which they wouldn't give, so any kid is even more of a fund drainer than they already are - even middle class parents and such claim it here, it's not some thing unique to poor people, screaming poop machines are costly. Our immigration control is actually one of the strictest in the world, and citizenship is a pain too. If I had to name stricter, all I could really point to is Japan or the US. Seen the test for citizenship? I only know around half to two thirds of that, and I believe you need 70%+. Some of the people I know, who speak flawless English, are in a university course that will ultimately help society (healthcare profession), will have a job and yet are panicking over it, it covers more history than you cover in school, has sports stuff like the Olympics, random trivia about the monarchy and all that.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;44727880]I'm sorry but I wouldn't move to a country for a job where getting ill, or trying to finding education would completely ruin my finances. I'd take myself to a better country. There is this overwhelming sense of arrogance in the UK that we're some desirable place to come and work with people all over the world queuing up to get in, that we can actually afford to scare away migrants which offer so much in a globalized economy. We simply won't be able to compete if we ruin what used to be a good country for foreign labour, talent and investment. Basically why even business minded Tories say our immigration is already too strict (pro-tip, if you read outside of UKIP leaflets you'll realize we have one of the tightest and most expensive immigration processes in the world) and harms our economy.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Wiggles;44727893]Private schools alone cost an average of ~£3400 [i]per term[/i], so that's ~£10k per year per child just for school. Then you have to factor in private healthcare payments, mortgage/rent payments, bills, food, etc. Like I said above, most families who already live in Britain can't afford to pay that, so it's absurd to think that all immigrants could pay that.[/QUOTE] Ah yeah fair enough, health care and edcuation should always be 'social' and available to everyone. Job Seekers Allowance/dole/child benefits should not be.

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44727919] Job Seekers Allowance/dole/child benefits should not be.[/QUOTE] why? [editline]5th May 2014[/editline] if a parent is in need of child benefits and is a current citizen of the UK regardless of immigrant status, they should be getting it

[QUOTE=.Lain;44727949]why? [editline]5th May 2014[/editline] if a parent is in need of child benefits and is a current [B]citizen[/B] of the UK regardless of immigrant status, they should be getting it[/QUOTE] foreign workers are not citizens

[QUOTE=.Lain;44727949]why? [editline]5th May 2014[/editline] [B]if a parent is in need of child benefits and is a current citizen of the UK regardless of immigrant status, they should be getting it[/B][/QUOTE] no they should not

[QUOTE=Democracy;44727970]foreign workers workers are not citizens[/QUOTE] meant to say resident. i don't think child care benefits should automatically be lumped in with job seeking allowance