A social democrat in Sweden wants to give ISIS-defectors support in form of work and housing. And it - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49135254]I think it should depend on what they did. If they took part in massacring civilians or executing captives, then send them to prison for life. If all they did was guard a checkpoint in the rear for 8 hours a day, I don't see why they shouldn't be given clemency for defecting. Basically, treat 'em the way we treated the Nazis, on a case-by-case basis.[/QUOTE] Actually, one of the biggest things to come out of the Nazi trials was the idea that a soldier can refuse certain orders. So they really don't have an excuse.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49135325]An awful lot of Nazis slipped through the cracks too. Doesn't mean we hanged everyone who ever said "Heil Hitler". Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a founding principal of our justice system. We must not allow emotion to compromise Justice.[/QUOTE] Joining ISIS makes you guilty.

[QUOTE=proch;49133685]Rehabilitation and reintegration is nice and all, but for crimes like thievery and such. Isis are looney terrorists, I doubt it would be very efficient.[/QUOTE] Part of the problem is that ISIS aren't just looney terrorists. They're Quaranic Literalists, which is utterly and inherently terrifying.

Those extremist preachers should get raided and have their shitty fucking "temples" burnt down

[QUOTE=Blanketspace;49135756]Part of the problem is that ISIS aren't just looney terrorists. They're Quaranic Literalists, which is utterly and inherently terrifying.[/QUOTE] They're completely brainwashed zealots. Any thought that may deviate from Islamic extremism is quickly repelled by repeating the dogma in their head.

Sweden what the fuck. I am ashamed to have Swedish blood, I'm going to bleed it all out of me so I'm not tainted with any possible trace of white guilt. Then I'll eat all the potatoes I can to regenerate the lost blood with Norwegian and Polish power, forever divorcing my family's ties with Scandinavia's special short bus country. [editline]17th November 2015[/editline] I've also uninstalled DotA. You are DEAD TO ME SWEDEN.

This is some mighty serious case of Stockholm syndrome

[QUOTE=Lium;49134819]Fuck 'em. They fucked up, and have to suffer the consequences. If I went out tonight and killed someone in cold blood, they'd arrest me and shove me in a cold cell, both as punishment for my deed and to protect others from further potential attacks. I couldn't just say "Oh, but I really regret killing that person, it was a mistake" and expect to get off scot-free, and more than that be actively REWARDED for it. If someone goes to join ISIS, they have effectively signed away their life - either to their bloodthirsty comrades, or to our guns and bombs. They don't deserve a second chance.[/QUOTE] "They deserve it" is kind of a lazy justification and is honestly subjective anyway so I feel like you should stop trying to use it as a justification to not letting them in. Just stick with your other justifications like the danger of them infiltrating secret information, causing havoc in Sweden, and encouraging more people to join ISIS with the promise of no punishment from everyone else. Those work fine, or at least better than what you have going on.

And people thought it was a good idea to vote for leftists. The only thing ISIS fighters deserve is to have their Swedish citizenship revoked and get deported from the country. It's outrageous that the government wants to spend tax money on terrorists instead of spending money on healthcare, education and stuff that's actually useful for society. If shit like this continues, I'm moving to Norway.

I can't wait for the headlines in a few months: "Breaking: Fake ISIS defectors kill 150 people in Stockholm!"

People who are calling this political correctness or white guilt are fucking ridiculous. The utilitarian goals of this are clearly stated in the first post. This aims to combat radicalization of muslims in Sweden. Tens of thousands of soldiers are fighting for ISIL in the Syrian Civil War. Do you honestly think every one of them is a genocidal, mass murdering serial rapist? What about those who [i]left[/i]? This isn't a suspension of punishment for war crimes or anything of the sort. The kind of emotional knee-jerk "us vs them" mentally in this thread is exactly what ISIL wants as it brings marginalized muslims around the world to their side.

Where are we going...

[QUOTE=jA_cOp;49136500]People who are calling this political correctness or white guilt are fucking ridiculous. The utilitarian goals of this are clearly stated in the first post. This aims to combat radicalization of muslims in Sweden. Tens of thousands of soldiers are fighting for ISIL in the Syrian Civil War. Do you honestly think every one of them is a genocidal, mass murdering serial rapist? What about those who [i]left[/i]? This isn't a suspension of punishment for war crimes or anything of the sort. The kind of emotional knee-jerk "us vs them" mentally in this thread is exactly what ISIL wants as it brings marginalized muslims around the world to their side.[/QUOTE] There's no reason to excuse them of their crimes. They left first world nations to join an enemy state. How the hell do you white wash that away?

Please stop the bus, I want to get off!

Sweden is truly fucked.

At this point I'm surprised Sweden still uses a cross on their flag and has a king because those may as well stand for religious minority oppression and patriarchy :goodjob:

Reading through a terrible Google translate of the first one it seems like this doesn't apply to people who ever actually committed a crime - just the idiots who go "join isis" because they think it's a good idea based on twitter posts they read. The fact that literally nobody else (except breitbart and white surpremacist youtubers) are "reporting" on this makes me think it's being completely overblown. The fact that this thread reads like /pol/ isn't helping

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49137398]Reading through a terrible Google translate of the first one it seems like this doesn't apply to people who ever actually committed a crime - just the idiots who go "join isis" because they think it's a good idea based on twitter posts they read. The fact that literally nobody else (except breitbart and white surpremacist youtubers) are "reporting" on this makes me think it's being completely overblown. The fact that this thread reads like /pol/ isn't helping[/QUOTE] Well, of course threads about Sweden will bring out the melodramatic /pol/-spergs with no understanding of the situation. Like that these new rules only apply to the [B]Stockholm[/B] area and not entire Sweden. These rules also aims to prevent terror "vacations" With that said, I am however fully against the idea that returning terrorists are left alone with 0 punishment or given prioritized social support. It's ridiculous. They join ISIS fully knowing what it is. Fully knowing of all the crimes ISIS has committed and fully aware that they may be doing the same crimes. It's disgusting. Lock them up, and if you want to rehabilitate them, do it while they're locked up. I hate the thought that these people may be walking among us just because a handful of politicians thought it was a great idea.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;49137904]Well, of course threads about Sweden will bring out the melodramatic /pol/-spergs with no understanding of the situation. Like that these new rules only apply to the [B]Stockholm[/B] area and not entire Sweden. These rules also aims to prevent terror "vacations" With that said, I am however fully against the idea that returning terrorists are left alone with 0 punishment or given prioritized social support. It's ridiculous. They join ISIS fully knowing what it is. Fully knowing of all the crimes ISIS has committed and fully aware that they may be doing the same crimes. It's disgusting. Lock them up, and if you want to rehabilitate them, do it while they're locked up. I hate the thought that these people may be walking among us just because a handful of politicians thought it was a great idea.[/QUOTE] Since you have a better grasp on the language, what actually [i]is[/i] the plan here? My understanding is that this is for the people who essentially fraternize with terrorists - not actual mass murderers. The latter would be completely insane. (Basically just people who got suckered into the cult that ISIS is running but then realized how shit it is and left.)

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49137398]Reading through a terrible Google translate of the first one it seems like this doesn't apply to people who ever actually committed a crime - just the idiots who go "join isis" because they think it's a good idea based on twitter posts they read. The fact that literally nobody else (except breitbart and white surpremacist youtubers) are "reporting" on this makes me think it's being completely overblown. The fact that this thread reads like /pol/ isn't helping[/QUOTE] Tell me, how can they possibly tell between people who have committed a crime and those who haven't? It seems like a meaningless differentiation in the real world.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49138003]Tell me, how can they possibly tell between people who have committed a crime and those who haven't?[/QUOTE] If they don't know whether they've committed a crime or not they can't take any action at all against them, now can they?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49138006]If they don't know whether they've committed a crime or not they can't take any action at all against them, now can they?[/QUOTE] So, effectively, they will let everyone in then. Like I said, it's a meaningless distinction.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49137951]Since you have a better grasp on the language, what actually [i]is[/i] the plan here? My understanding is that this is for the people who essentially fraternize with terrorists - not actual mass murderers. The latter would be completely insane. (Basically just people who got suckered into the cult that ISIS is running but then realized how shit it is and left.)[/QUOTE] I'm trying to look for the actual papers, but can't seem to find them. But yea they don't seem to discriminate between people that just are about to join, people that already has joined and people that has joined and committed crimes. The main criticism from the opposition was exactly about the latter case, that mass murderers also seem to get a free pass. Will have to find the papers to confirm though.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49138010]So, effectively, they will let everyone in then. Like I said, it's a meaningless distinction.[/QUOTE] My point is that they probably aren't going to be scooping up enemy combatants and putting them up in free housing. You're constantly hearing of idiots going off to the middle east because they've been led to believe that joining ISIS is the fast track to salvation. Instead of telling them "nope you've crossed a line, you can never come back", and essentially delivering ISIS a new recruit on a silver platter, this program seems to be designed to give people a second chance to change their minds under the condition that the government scrutinizes their every move once they return. If there truly is a case of ISIS bolstering its ranks with disillusioned western Muslims, that second chance might be what cuts off their ability to recruit westerners.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49138048]My point is that they probably aren't going to be scooping up enemy combatants and putting them up in free housing. You're constantly hearing of idiots going off to the middle east because they've been led to believe that joining ISIS is the fast track to salvation. Instead of telling them "nope you've crossed a line, you can never come back", and essentially delivering ISIS a new recruit on a silver platter, this program seems to be designed to give people a second chance to change their minds under the condition that the government scrutinizes their every move once they return. If there truly is a case of ISIS bolstering its ranks with disillusioned western Muslims, that second chance might be what cuts off their ability to recruit westerners.[/QUOTE] You're looking at it idealistically instead of realistically. In theory, sure, it allows people who regret joining ISIS out, but in reality it opens up a totally unfiltered opening to everyone in ISIS. Policy can't just be looked at based on the ideal scenario.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49138058]You're looking at it idealistically instead of realistically. In theory, sure, it allows people who regret joining ISIS out, but in reality it opens up a totally unfiltered opening to everyone in ISIS. Policy can't just be looked at based on the ideal scenario.[/QUOTE] If they came back they'd be under surveillance. The connections they used to join Isis could also become known to security services, finding other potential recruits or recruiters.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49138058]You're looking at it idealistically instead of realistically. In theory, sure, it allows people who regret joining ISIS out, but in reality it opens up a totally unfiltered opening to everyone in ISIS. Policy can't just be looked at based on the ideal scenario.[/QUOTE] Well I assume it's only available to people who previously lived in Sweden so that would automatically cut out a lot of the hardliners who would just use the system as a quick way to get into Sweden and cause chaos. Done [i]correctly[/i], it could work. Did the person exhibit criminality before defecting? Does their social media history indicate that they want to hurt people, or does it look more like they got in over their head? Have they been gone a long time or did they basically just get off a plane in Syria? There would absolutely need to be a shitload of screening, and I'm not saying that Stockholm [i]is[/i] doing it correctly, but with the complete dearth of information we have available it makes more sense to discuss the idea instead of flying off into a reactionary fit like a few people in this thread already have done.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49138090]Well I assume it's only available to people who previously lived in Sweden so that would automatically cut out a lot of the hardliners who would just use the system as a quick way to get into Sweden and cause chaos. Done [i]correctly[/i], it could work. Did the person exhibit criminality before defecting? Does their social media history indicate that they want to hurt people, or does it look more like they got in over their head? Have they been gone a long time or did they basically just get off a plane in Syria? There would absolutely need to be a shitload of screening, and I'm not saying that Stockholm [i]is[/i] doing it correctly, but with the complete dearth of information we have available it makes more sense to discuss the idea instead of flying off into a reactionary fit like a few people in this thread already have done.[/QUOTE]Knowing if they committed crime would be near impossible and this will just give them a safe net. So this will probably increase the recruits they get from sweden so when they dont feel like fighting anymore they could just go back to sweden and get prioritized social benefits. This law is nothing but disgusting. And giving the social benefits for fighting and doing everything we are against is just ridiculous. Stuff like this will make Sverigedemokraterna win which also sucks

It's worth noting that most places doesn't even have these guidelines in place, so nothing was being done to stop extremists from travelling abroad before. These guidelines while perhaps not covering all areas of this problem, at least tries to do something about it. These guidelines aren't only about ISIS but all extremists. The reason these were written in the first place was due to the events in Ukraine and Syria. Also worth noting that [B]these aren't laws. [/B] From May 2015, so it's not the finalized version. In Swedish of course. [url]https://kraulis.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/stockholms-stads-strategi-mot-valdsbejakande-extremism-14-bilaga.pdf[/url]

I think it's quite stupid that many are quick to jump on the national-level Socialdemokraterna & miljopartiet 's backs and blame them that they were the ones who put forward this idea, even though this is supposedly just for the City of Stockholm. I doubt Lofven or Fridolin / Romson would entertain such an idea from where they are in the parliament (given their minority government status). To be concise, the plan is not going to work. It opens up many legal loopholes not to forget it'd be against the constitution and many legal statutes.