Toys R Us agree to stop separating products by gender after pressure from campaign
337 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134971]I've already shown it's not arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
But it's not the only way
it's not even the best way, I worked retail, there are more efficient ways to organize this stuff.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134971]I've already shown it's not arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
you've shown that monkeys sometimes prefer dolls over things with wheels and vice versa. not anything else
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134963]It actually is proper logic. Most debates start with the new claim taking the burden of proof. This means the commonly accepted case (stores organized at least partly by gender) is accepted as the best until proven incorrect.[/QUOTE]
that's an appeal to authority
who says that's the correct way
the authority does
because they've always decided what it is
so we've accepted it as correct
[editline]9th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;42134970]Hey, where'd I say that? I think you're putting words in my mouth; all I said was that alphabetizing is such a retail pain that it isn't viable.
See, this is why the bad reading rating was a [I]thing[/I].[/QUOTE]
so what we're you trying to say by shooting down multiple methods of organizing then but not gendered methods?
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;42134976]how about you skip the middleman and just let kids buy what they want without a societal bias funneling them into a particular preference? where is the harm in this?[/QUOTE]
Wait, can you show me where I said they can't buy what they want or that they have to go to any specific place in the store?
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134971]I've already shown it's not arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
no not really.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42134939] AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Not the pre-existing notion of male and female and the ontology that goes with it.[/QUOTE]
Kids make fun because they adopted the pre-existing notion. And kids making fun will perpetuate that notion. It's a bit of a "chicken or the egg", one doesn't exist without the other. Naturally both are problematic we have to work on solving both those issues. There isn't any single universal solution.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42134984]you've shown that monkeys sometimes prefer dolls over things with wheels and vice versa. not anything else[/QUOTE]
I get it, you disagree with the scientists.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134997]Wait, can you show me where I said they can't buy what they want or that they have to go to any specific place in the store?[/QUOTE]
You might have not said that but parents will do this all the time.
You have to understand we're dealing with little little kids, kids that don't make their own decisions usually.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134971]I've already shown it's not arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
you've shown fuck all that says it's not arbitrary
basically all you've said is 'it's not arbitrary' and then you're pointing at it like it's somehow proof
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135009]I get it, you disagree with the scientists.[/QUOTE]
no he disagrees with the conclusions YOU've made from those scientists.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42135001]no not really.[/QUOTE]
If multiple scientific studies out of peer reviewed journals isn't enough than what is?
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135009]I get it, you disagree with the scientists.[/QUOTE]
whatever you want to believe dude
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42135016]no he disagrees with the conclusions YOU've made from those scientists.[/QUOTE]
No, the SCIENTISTS literally said it in the conclusions of their studies.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135019]If multiple scientific studies out of peer reviewed journals isn't enough than what is?[/QUOTE]
you drawing your own conclusions from those is not the same as those studies saying it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135009]I get it, you disagree with the scientists.[/QUOTE]
what scientists?
My main complaint with this is that a boy has always been able to play with a girls toy and a girl has always been able to play with boys toys [I]regardless[/I] of what ads say.
There has never been an ad that has specifically said "THIS IS FOR BOYS ONLY, GIRLS CAN'T PLAY WITH THIS!"
Perhaps there are people who will look at a boy playing with a girl toy oddly, but that is a problem with the person, not with marketing.
If an ad shows a boy playing with something that's because extensive testing and marketing knowledge has shown that boys will be the more common recipients of the item in question, so that's who they will aim the campaign towards.
If a kid sees a commercial with a toy they want, they don't look at if it's a boy or girl playing with that toy, they just say "I want that"
I used to play with barbies and such as a kid, and my 6 year old niece's favorite toys are hotwheels.
This whole thing is an adult issue, and a non-issue for kids. It just seems that, at this point, the adults are so adamant about it being sexist that it's nearing the point where someone will try to tell a girl that she's not allowed to like pink, or barbies because that's some sort of deeply ingrained gender role stereotype or something, which is just absurd.
That being said, I see absolutely no problem with the change being made, but the fact that it was due to a campaign by adults that legitimately saw it as a problem is a bit pathetic.
you've taken what those scientists have reported on and twisted it to try and validate your pointless seperation
at first you said aisles should be seperated by biological preferences, then went on to say they should be seperated by what society deems. what sense is there in that?
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134997]Wait, can you show me where I said they can't buy what they want or that they have to go to any specific place in the store?[/QUOTE]
He didn't imply you said that?
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135024]No, the SCIENTISTS literally said it in the conclusions of their studies.[/QUOTE]
just read the study
yeah, it doesn't really say that human children are more likely to play with gendered toys. monkeys are a great test analogue but are we really going to defend the gendering of children for no purpose other than "hey monkeys are like that, we must not be able to find a better way of doing this"
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;42135005]Kids make fun because they adopted the pre-existing notion. And kids making fun will perpetuate that notion. It's a bit of a "chicken or the egg", one doesn't exist without the other. Naturally both are problematic we have to work on solving both those issues. There isn't any single universal solution.[/QUOTE]
No kids make fun because they are taught through society that making fun of, or otherwise antagonizing, others is an acceptable way of responding to differences in opinion, preference, or otherwise.
Come on people, read the thread if you are going to argue.
"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/[/url]
"This cross-species demonstration of male–female differences in toy choice strongly supports and extends prior work with humans (e.g., Berenbaum and Hines, 1992; Campbell et al., 2000; Pasterski et al., 2005; Serbin et al., 2001) and vervet monkeys (Alexander and Hines, 2002) showing that sexually dimorphic toy preferences reflect basic neurobiological differences between males and females and are not caused solely by socialization, as has been suggested by cognitive-social theories of gender role behavior (Caldera et al., 1989; Carter and Levy, 1988; Pomerleau et al., 1990; Roopnarine, 1986)." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755553/[/url]
its only a toy store
[QUOTE=sgman91;42134997]Wait, can you show me where I said they can't buy what they want or that they have to go to any specific place in the store?[/QUOTE]
uhh if there's a boy and he's in a toy shop, which part of the store is he naturally going to go to? the one marked 'boys' or the one marked 'girls'? hint: it's the one with HIS OWN GENDER printed on it
If they don't make fun of them for using the 'wrong' toys, they will make fun of them for having the 'stupid' hair, or the 'shitty' music.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135051]Come on people, read the thread if you are going to argue.
"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/[/url]
"This cross-species demonstration of male–female differences in toy choice strongly supports and extends prior work with humans (e.g., Berenbaum and Hines, 1992; Campbell et al., 2000; Pasterski et al., 2005; Serbin et al., 2001) and vervet monkeys (Alexander and Hines, 2002) showing that sexually dimorphic toy preferences reflect basic neurobiological differences between males and females and are not caused solely by socialization, as has been suggested by cognitive-social theories of gender role behavior (Caldera et al., 1989; Carter and Levy, 1988; Pomerleau et al., 1990; Roopnarine, 1986)." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755553/[/url][/QUOTE]
so this proves that we should gender our toy aisles or something?
cause it really doesn't
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;42135056]uhh if there's a boy and he's in a toy shop, which part of the store is he naturally going to go to? the one marked 'boys' or the one marked 'girls'? hint: it's the one with HIS OWN GENDER printed on it[/QUOTE]
Lol, so naturally going to something is the same as forcing, got it. The funny thing is that "naturally choosing" is pretty much the opposite of forcing.
[editline]9th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42135061]so this proves that we should gender our toy aisles or something?
cause it really doesn't[/QUOTE]
It shows that gender differences in toy preference isn't arbitrary.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135066]Lol, so naturally going to something is the same as forcing, got it.[/QUOTE]
putting a sign up for boys is going to coerce them into going there
if you can't see that for yourself you're dumb
[editline]9th September 2013[/editline]
they're kids, not fully functioning adults ffs.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42135051]Come on people, read the thread if you are going to argue.
"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/[/url]
"This cross-species demonstration of male–female differences in toy choice strongly supports and extends prior work with humans (e.g., Berenbaum and Hines, 1992; Campbell et al., 2000; Pasterski et al., 2005; Serbin et al., 2001) and vervet monkeys (Alexander and Hines, 2002) showing that sexually dimorphic toy preferences reflect basic neurobiological differences between males and females and are not caused solely by socialization, as has been suggested by cognitive-social theories of gender role behavior (Caldera et al., 1989; Carter and Levy, 1988; Pomerleau et al., 1990; Roopnarine, 1986)." - [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755553/[/url][/QUOTE]
yeah, i just quoted you exactly on this. you might be able to find reasoning on seperating by this (however pointless) but you then go on to say seperation of what society deems to be a girly/boyish toy is okay too.
if i slapped a barbie logo on a jeep toy and painted it pink, would it go in the girl's section?
no, of course not! it has wheels!
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42134987]so what we're you trying to say by shooting down multiple methods of organizing then but not gendered methods?[/QUOTE]
No, [I]I'm[/I] just trying to offer the perspective of somebody who is genuinely interested in the production and distribution of toys. If somebody makes a suggestion which doesn't work logistically, I want to explain to them why it wouldn't work. See, this way, we can all [I]learn[/I] and then later we can make suggestions which actually [I]might[/I] work logistically.
..right?
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