[QUOTE=_Axel;51307070]Right, you really are in a position to brag about your country's stability right now.[/QUOTE]
I just noted why we have become unstable: by undermining parliamentary sovereignty by holding a referendum (which we have done before, and I have opposed them being held every single time on every issue regardless of my view on it, but we dodged bullets until this one). Normal British constitutional conventions are extremely stable as they are based upon precedent and tradition.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307077]I just noted why we have become unstable: by undermining parliamentary sovereignty by holding a referendum (which we have done before, and I have opposed them being held every single time on every issue regardless of my view on it, but we dodged bullets until this one). Normal British constitutional conventions are extremely stable as they are based upon precedent and tradition.[/QUOTE]
But I fail to see how needing no more than a simple parliamentary majority to change the constitution contributes to that stability.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307050]I guess that's why France has had five republics, repeated constitutional crises and chaos whilst Britain has been the most stable country in the world before we undermined our own constitutional conventions by holding a referendum.[/QUOTE]
this is hilarious, i just find this absurd
why are you bringing France into this debate like it has any relevance and why are you ignoring the fact that Britain has had constitutional crises (not like our own lack of an actual codified 'constitution' is a crisis itself) and chaos of its own in the past
[QUOTE=_Axel;51307087]But I fail to see how needing no more than a simple parliamentary majority to change the constitution contributes to that stability.[/QUOTE]
Because it enables change when it is necessary and in crisis (which is important for long-term stability) whilst usually effectively constraining unnecessary change through precedent and tradition. This is more effective than bizarre and frustrating separations of power and ancient yet unbending constitutions which constrain both necessary and unnecessary change.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;51307109]this is hilarious, i just find this absurd[/QUOTE]
I think you need to examine history over several hundred rather than like three years, and see which countries are the most stable. Only two stand out: United States and United Kingdom. Of which, the latter wins out as a result of the American Civil War.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;51307109]why are you bringing France into this debate like it has any relevance and why are you ignoring the fact that Britain has had constitutional crises (not like our own lack on an actual codified 'constitution' is a crisis itself) and chaos of its own in the past[/QUOTE]
Because they have always been less severe than equivalent countries when taking a long-term perspective.
I mean Marsh is correct in that Britain has been a very stable country for a very long time, though I think the Republic of Ireland will probably be more stable after Brexit.
Northern Ireland, however, obviously has only recently become stable, and now that's in jeopardy because of Brexit.
stable as in what? good ol' blighty's exceptionalism and the monarchy, fuck that. if anything, stability has been a bad thing, people are complacent and everything returns to the status quo - 5 years of labour, 5 years of conservative, nothing changes, everything is equally shite, the rain still pours.
clinging to a burkean love affair and this tired idea of tradition and parliament needs to end some day, because it just doesn't solve anything. it does nothing but further the interests of a two-party state, not too dissimilar to the united states, and the big media that underpins it.
i admire the french, at least they had the balls to revolt 5 times rather than sit around moping complaining about boogeymen like jean-claude juncker and the BIG BAD EUROPEAN UNION. another point of irony to be made is that even traditionalist conservative heroes such as churchill were in favour of a 'united states of europe', something much more drastic and expanded than what is the current state of affairs on the continent. fancy that.
shit. time to emigrate when i can i suppose. i'm tired of this sad little island.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51306928]
Democracy > Economy, Article 50 must be triggered, for the UK's sake its the fate of its democracy that is at stake.[/QUOTE]
no it aint lmao
If 52% of the UK voted to start drinking battery acid, would it cause a crisis of democracy when the government says "uh, no, you're idiots"
Leaving the EU is comparable to drinking battery acid, except it directly affects more people than just one guy drinking it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307050]I guess that's why France has had five republics, repeated constitutional crises and chaos whilst Britain has been the most stable country in the world before we undermined our own constitutional conventions by holding a referendum.[/QUOTE]
i'm actually boggling at your blindness with this statement.
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;51307497]i'm actually boggling at your blindness with this statement.[/QUOTE]
Using some long-term comparative history may make you understand, but I guess that only the last couple of years counts right guys
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51306928]Thats political suicide for a party to organise that referendum, and highly unpopular for a reason...
Brexit is not unpopular, its popular, and while there are arguments to be made its a bad, emotionally fuelled call... its still the voters choice to leave the EU and pay any economic losses that may be had for that.[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I don't think people should have to be punished for being stupid. Brexit is supported by the slimmest of majorities (which probably has already evaporated).
[quote]If people vote in a binding referendum 51% in favour of abolishing democracy for example, it effectively nullifies the democratic system in place... its the peoples will to be powerless...[/quote]
so if that a good thing or not
should people be allowed such referendums to take place, where you give up basic rights as long as more than 50% of voters vote for it?
[quote]By questioning the outcome and if a following should be given (besides questioning the validity of the results themselves) you are effectively opening the door for a dictatorship coup by setting a precedence of ignoring the democratic and electoree ratified 'will of the people'.
Democracy > Economy, Article 50 must be triggered, for the UK's sake its the fate of its democracy that is at stake.[/QUOTE]
I think longterm stability is ultimately more important than democracy for the sake of democracy
democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307568]Using some long-term comparative history may make you understand, but I guess that only the last couple of years counts right guys[/QUOTE]
This being the point with Brexit, it may have a short term effect but in the long term the UK will recover, historically it has always done well and has recovered better from previous world economic troughs better than most. To keep repeating that a Brexit is like armageddon is like reading the Daily Mail but in reverse.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51307629]This being the point with Brexit, it may have a short term effect but in the long term the UK will recover, historically it has always done well and has recovered better from previous world economic troughs better than most. To keep repeating that a Brexit is like armageddon is like reading the Daily Mail but in reverse.[/QUOTE]
problem with brexit is that i dont see scotland wishing to remain if it goes through, unless the westminster government pretty much bent over backwards and gave scotland complete devomax. scotland leaving the union would be disastrous for both nations i think
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51307648]problem with brexit is that i dont see scotland wishing to remain if it goes through, unless the westminster government pretty much bent over backwards and gave scotland complete devomax. scotland leaving the union would be disastrous for both nations i think[/QUOTE]
I think Scotland leaving the union would be disastrous for the Scottish people.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51307685]I think Scotland leaving the union would be disastrous for the Scottish people.[/QUOTE]
Scotland leaving the UK would trigger a recession to severe it will make Article 50 look benign but people are stupid so might still vote for it. One of the reasons I opposed Brexit (even though I stand by my view that it is still unlikely the Scotland leaves for a number of reasons)
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307693]Scotland leaving the UK would trigger a recession to severe it will make Article 50 look benign but people are stupid so might still vote for it. One of the reasons I opposed Brexit (even though I stand by my view that it is still unlikely the Scotland leaves for a number of reasons)[/QUOTE]
I'm not convinced the Scottish public are as stupid as Nicola Sturgeon.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51307629]This being the point with Brexit, it may have a short term effect but in the long term the UK will recover, historically it has always done well and has recovered better from previous world economic troughs better than most. To keep repeating that a Brexit is like armageddon is like reading the Daily Mail but in reverse.[/QUOTE]
it's the most pointless and self-serving decision to try to recover from in the long-term. this is shooting yourself in the foot as opposed to actually being shot in the foot. i can't think of a single moment in british history off the top of my head where a fringe party swindled 51% of 72% of the electorate into signing away long-term prosperity, security, and opportunity, for short-term fears.
and scotland needs to end its pleas for independence, it'll only add to the chaos and make things worse.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51307745]I'm not convinced the Scottish public are as stupid as Nicola Sturgeon.[/QUOTE]
lmao you havent been here have you then
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51307685]I think Scotland leaving the union would be disastrous for the Scottish people.[/QUOTE]
you were literally born with no eyes if you think it'd just effect scotland, especially considering our nuclear weapons are primarily stationed in scotland lol
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51307568]Using some long-term comparative history may make you understand, but I guess that only the last couple of years counts right guys[/QUOTE]
are you gonna refer to the british empire? because if so i'm gonna have to brace myself for the largest laughter fit of my life
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