This thread is a perfect example of why I don't want to know shit about politics.
Stupid fights all over the place.
[QUOTE=paul simon;25176468]This thread is a perfect example of why I don't want to know shit about politics.
Stupid fights all over the place.[/QUOTE]
Not really a fight so much anymore, we are getting into political philosophical discussion i guess now, lol.
[QUOTE=Lithe;25171667]Wait, can't a system of governance/politics be judged at least somewhat objectively based on how good the results it turns out are?
I know we each have our own definitions of what's important and what would constitute a good or bad thing in governance and policy but there are pretty objective general things that a government can accomplish that anyone in their right mind regardless of political preference or affiliation would think of as good.
Objective things like lower mortality rates, increased overall lifespan, increased levels of population happiness, small class divide between the rich and the poor, reduced levels of poverty in urban areas etc.
All these things can be measured, and often are in polls of national statistics and that sort of thing. And all of the above things and more are (or can be) the direct result of the implementation of certain political policies are they not? Who would honestly argue that any of the above are bad things? If a policy is implemented that works, then you can't really argue with the results.
[/QUOTE]
Here's the thing, though--the idea that a government should provide the best living conditions to the largest number of people is an essentially leftist one. So a government that succeeds at that would be good by leftist standards. A conservative might just as easily say "look at all these personal freedoms that have been curtailed, like smoking in public. This is a bad government."
Now, most people are moderates, and want a balance between personal freedoms and quality of life--one might take precedence over the other, depending on their leanings. There are a few extremists on both ends, like Riv or whoever, but most people think both are important.
Those aren't the only two standards, though--fascists, for example, believe the best government is one that maximizes the power of the state, often at the expense of personal freedoms AND quality of life.
tldr: A government can only be objectively good or bad by the standards you set for it, which are inherently subjective.
[quote]This thread is a perfect example of why I don't want to know shit about politics.
Stupid fights all over the place. [/quote]
People like this are stupid. Really fucking stupid. HEY NINNYHAMMER! If you don't like what's going on but don't vote or learn about it, then you really fucking suck!
Seriously, lines like that make me go
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JHGWolwHHU&feature=related[/media]
I don't understand why people wouldn't be at least a little bit enticed in political debates and discussions. I mean, it's your country; I think you would want to have an opinion on how it's run, or the actual politics of it.
In my experience people who say they hate politics usually DO have political opinions, they're just not knowledgeable enough to debate them.
[QUOTE=TH89;25176941]In my experience people who say they hate politics usually DO have political opinions, they're just not knowledgeable enough to debate them.[/QUOTE]
Imagine if people with those opinions [I]were [/I]knowledgable enough... we'd know what their opinions are, and I'd think that our political "problems" would be solved faster. Just my opinion though.
[QUOTE=Akayz;25156769] [URL="http://www.facepunch.com/#"]View YouTUBE video[/URL]
[URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_6jBMSU9s[/URL]
Arnold is great.[/QUOTE]
I have seen hell
Ah, TH89, so my original premise about everybody necessarily thinking (by virtue of my own subjective opinion) general things like welfare and quality of life for the most people itself was wrong. I get it, thanks TH89. My rationale was that the kinds of things I listed were so general, broadly applicable and overall inclusive/beneficial that anyone could say they liked them, but still hold to any political opinion about how to reach them.
So, there's no real way to tell which is the 'objectively right' answer to that original preceding question if there is such a thing? And this is because different people value different things?
A lefty like me (or you?) might well say that a policy is irresponsible as through expanding certain personal freedoms it risks damaging somebody else who has no stake and therefore has no right to be hurt, while a right-winger would say that the freedom of that person to do as he pleased is the more important thing and supersedes the damage it might cause? Just as an example of course, and not even a particularly good one. From both these points of view, they see the same thing. They just come to different conclusions because of their perspectives which differ on what's more important.
Sorry if I'm not being the most coherent at this moment- it's late.
Anyway, thank you for the enlightening post. You elucidated your point with calm and clarity, a rare thing here.
And there's no need for a tldr. That post wasn't near long enough to warrant it IMO.
Also, does whats going on now really resemble a stupid fight?
"You can't have slaves" "We don"t have slaves... but we don't want you to check if we have slaves."
[QUOTE=Lithe;25177015]-snip for quote length-
Sorry if I'm not being the most coherent at this moment- it's late.
Anyway, thank you for the enlightening post. You elucidated your point with calm and clarity, a rare thing here.
And there's no need for a tldr. That post wasn't near long enough to warrant it IMO.
Also, does whats going on now really resemble a stupid fight?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say it's a stupid fight per say, but more of a "heated' political discussion over a topic/topics that, well, some people may not find appealing to them so they like to bash it, calling it stupid. As for your actual post body, I agree with what you said. In a circumstance such as safeguarding a person's safety or wellbeing, I'd personally be a lefty like you (and possibly TH89 as you stated).
Pretty much Lithe!
I don't think it's a stupid fight though.
Me neither. It calmed down significantly as far as I can tell after Ren left, and what do you know? With open minds, missing ego and non-confrontational demeanors all around, it actually turned in to something vaguely productive. I'm somewhat proud of what happened here.
[QUOTE=Lithe;25177227]Me neither. It calmed down significantly as far as I can tell after Ren left, and what do you know? With open minds, missing ego and non-confrontational demeanors all around, it actually turned in to something vaguely productive. I'm somewhat proud of what happened here.[/QUOTE]
Heh, I read the last few pages here and thought "Wait, is this facepunch? It can't be". :keke:
Eheheh. Yeah, we managed to scrape together a happy ending here. You rarely do see intellectual success stories on the internet. It usually degenerates in to bullshit flame wars and such. Though this is not unheard of. I saw a Halo vs. half-Life fight thread turn to some form of argumentative sanity after one big-ass post and a little working.
True enough. TH89 must have used his magical powers here to make it happy...
I'm sad that rin guy is gone, I like a discussion when the opposing side is a rage blinded fool. Regardless, this is a great bill signed by a pretty damn good governer. Wish our PM in England was even slightly as cool a conservative as Arnie:smith:
[QUOTE=Akayz;25156769][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_6jBMSU9s[/media]
Arnold is great.[/QUOTE]
I have no words.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;25181716]I'm sad that rin guy is gone, I like a discussion when the opposing side is a rage blinded fool. Regardless, this is a great bill signed by a pretty damn good governer. Wish our PM in England was even slightly as cool a conservative as Arnie:smith:[/QUOTE]
Rage blinded?
I'm not even mad foo.
What are we even arguing about again?
Capitalism > Socialism no matter which way you put it.
[QUOTE=RinVII;25169959]Shh..
Most people on this forum don't understand or want to understand any theory besides big government.
Our economic system would be in a lot better condition and fair if it was free market capitalism.
[editline]06:38AM[/editline]
Yeah because facism is an economic system right?
For fucks sake..[/QUOTE]
lol you are a funny poster because everything you say everyone knows is wrong
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;25159376]But an example of a good (or at least okay) one[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Arnolds alright. Other than his stance on copyright. (But he's an actor, what did you expect)
[QUOTE=RinVII;25183034]Rage blinded?
I'm not even mad foo.
What are we even arguing about again?
Capitalism > Socialism no matter which way you put it.[/QUOTE]
i wish people looked at politics and used there brains not just there uneducated opinions because then people like you would not be saying things like that, if the gaol of the government is to make as much people happy as possible or smarter or healtheir then socialism would be winning
ps if you are a troll then you are not good at it because you are making everyone in the thread feel good
[QUOTE=imasillypiggys;25183438]i wish people looked at politics and used there brains not just there uneducated opinions because then people like you would not be saying things like that, if the [B]gaol [/B]of the government is to make as much people happy as possible or smarter or [B]healtheir[/B] then socialism would be winning
ps if you are a troll then you are not good at it because you are making everyone in the thread feel good[/QUOTE]
Let the big boys defend the left.
Go educated yourself please.
[QUOTE=RinVII;25183529]Let the big boys defend the left.
Go educated yourself please.[/QUOTE]
not agreeing with your ideas does not make me uneducated, i spend 5 hours a day reading about many things and making sure all my ideas are correct. logic is a good tool and you should use it a little more
[QUOTE=imasillypiggys;25183438]i wish people looked at politics and used there brains not just there uneducated opinions because then people like you would not be saying things like that, if the gaol of the government is to make as much people happy as possible or smarter or healtheir then socialism would be winning
ps if you are a troll then you are not good at it because you are making everyone in the thread feel good[/QUOTE]
I don't think you've ever used a capital letter in any of your posts. :v:
[QUOTE=jeimizu;25183600]I don't think you've ever used a capital letter in any of your posts. :v:[/QUOTE]
Missing right shift key+ lazyness+ dyslexia
(im going to try to take off the 0 and put it were the shift key is so you do not have to see the horrible uncapitals anymore)
[QUOTE=imasillypiggys;25183589]not agreeing with your ideas does not make me uneducated, i spend 5 hours a day reading about many things and making sure all my ideas are correct. logic is a good tool and you should use it a little more[/QUOTE]
You really are a hypocrite aren't you?
You called me uneducated for not agreeing with your ideas..
I wasn't even referring to your ideas but the fact that you don't understand punctuation, spelling, grammar, or any other fifth grade English concept.
Why don't you spend "5 hours a day" learning sentence structure?
[QUOTE=RinVII;25184589]You really are a hypocrite aren't you?
You called me uneducated for not agreeing with your ideas..
I wasn't even referring to your ideas but the fact that you don't understand punctuation, spelling, grammar, or any other fifth grade English concept.
Why don't you spend "5 hours a day" learning sentence structure?[/QUOTE]
did you read my other post or something. sentence structure has nothing to do with logic or if your ideas are right or wrong, thats just a low blwo because you cant think of a real reason why i would be wrong
Rin, his skills or lack thereof in grammar have nothing to do with his argument. Stop pretending that they do.
Speaking of arguments, could you actually present your argument? Okay, so apparently (if you're not a simple troll that is) Capitalism > Socialism every time in all ways forever. Now, why does it do that. Explain, because all you've said in Capitalism's defense is "Capitalism > Socialism". That is not an argument, that is an assertion. And an unfounded assertion at that.
[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/2w409ra.jpg[/IMG]
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