Man and Woman are Caned Under Sharia Law in Indonesia for Being ‘Seen in Close Proximity’ - Polidicks

Man and Woman are Caned Under Sharia Law in Indonesia for Being ‘Seen in Close Proximity’

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It amuses me how certain people here google "Islam" for 5 minutes then assume they are now experts free to judge entire populations. Reminds me of the whole antivax movement. Many of the governments in the middle east are corrupt, and use religion (in this case, Islam) to stay in power. They cherrypick and manipulate the Quran to create excuses for all the terrible things they do to their people and to keep everyone ignorant. Heck, in certain countries (such as Iran), you must pass religous "tests" to even go to university (which are rigged, they use it to prevent people against the regime to get a higher education or good jobs). Terrorist groups are just the same, once again cherrypicking everything just to get their way. And to the people who believes any and all religions are the problem, it really isn't. Even if every single religion disappeared tomorrow, a new excuse would be found to control the populations by morning.

[QUOTE=da space core;49416643]And to the people who believes any and all religions are the problem, it really isn't. Even if every single religion disappeared tomorrow, a new excuse would be found to control the populations by morning.[/QUOTE] I disagree with this. Without the threat of eternal torture or the promise of eternal pleasure, a lot of people convinced to do horrible things wouldn't be convinceable, or at the very least you'd have to use logic to convince them, which is more easily fought against than religion.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416307]HAHAHA. You're a fucking atheist dude, you said in other threads that you didn't grow up in a religious household. I grew up in a [U]very[/U] religious rural community, and here you come along with your [B]five years of study[/B] in your ~free time~ telling me what's in the goddamn bible. Okay. [/QUOTE] Given the tendency for people to take up whatever custom interpretation of their religion that most conveniently reinforces their values, and to reinterpret, retcon, or outright ignore anything contradictory, I'll take an atheist with a single semester of Religion 101 over any Bible Belt yokel any day.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;49416668]Given the tendency for people to take up whatever custom interpretation of their religion that most conveniently reinforces their values, and to reinterpret, retcon, or outright ignore anything contradictory, I'll take an atheist with a single semester of Religion 101 over any Bible Belt yokel any day.[/QUOTE]Good thing I'm not from the bible belt, and I'm not indoctrinated in whatever kooky bible-themed shenanigans that they're up to these days given that I grew up to be not-Christian. Almost got me though! [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=da space core;49416643]It amuses me how certain people here google "Islam" for 5 minutes then assume they are now experts free to judge entire populations. Reminds me of the whole antivax movement.[/QUOTE]???? How does that equate to the antivax movement? Either way it tickles me to death that whenever anyone's supremely critical of the big three Abrahamic religions people just dismiss it as "oh you just googled it whatever stop judging people." Here's the thing: I'm attacking the religion itself. You can pretend like the governments involved in all the nasty shit are just using Islam as some sort of shield but you'd be wrong, they are intrinsically linked. Yeah, corrupt regimes will exist with or without whatever fucking facade they're using to justify their bullshit but that doesn't absolve the religion itself of any criticism simply because some nondescript bad guys did bad things in it's name. What, are we going to absolve fascism because it's actually a really good political system because Mussolini and his goons "misused" it somehow? Fuck that shit.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416524]What's in that book though completely condones it while I could find tons of scripture that state all sorts of killing (even killing in general if there's an alternative like life imprisonment) is immoral and wrong in the bible. This is in the New Testament by the way, the actual stuff that concerns Christians and what kind of people they're supposed to be like. Islam offers far less of an opportunity for that and actually specifies when it's A-OK to kill people and encourages Muslims to do that. There isn't some "ehh, well is it really for-true new testament quran???" shit either, it's absolutely relevant stuff that doesn't leave room for interpretation.[/quote] Yeah the Quran has plenty of "love thy neighbour" shit in it too. Ignoring the fact that the Old Testament is still used by a major world religion, the New Testament isn't all gumdrops and roses either. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416524]On the other hand: I'm perfectly fine with this and really, it's one of the really practical things I like about Islam. That being said though, would you eat a chocolate bar that fell in a pile of dog shit? No, you wouldn't. That delicious chocolate has been tainted by the shit around it. Oh and the FUCKED UP part about that is I just indirectly compared Islamic holy law to dog shit and there's millions of crazy fucks out there who would cheer on my death for doing so. Meanwhile if I compared Jesus to a zombie or depicted him as a drug addict, punk rocker, creepy panties thief, or anything else you'd have a hard time finding a Christian who would kill me for it. Muslims? Shit, you don't need to look far, they have an entire brand-new nation dedicated to that bullshit.[/quote] I can only assume that ISIS wouldn't actually care. They want politically expedient targets, people already in the news for being anti-Islam so they can make an example of them. Just like how the "eat da poopoo" president of Uganda probably wouldn't order my execution for my sexuality unless I was some high profile gay rights activist.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;49416388]A five-second google search will show you how contentious the idea that the OT was dismissed is.[/QUOTE] What point are you trying to make with this? It's been fairly established doctrine from the first century that Christians are not to uphold the Old Testament laws. There are verses that call out specific laws, and verses that talk about the law generally. Specific laws spoken about would be the Sabbath, feast days, and dietary laws: "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Colossians 2:16-17 Other laws like circumcision and sacrifice laws are also specifically mentioned. Then you have verses that talk generally about the OT's law in relation to Christians. Galatians 3:23-29 is a good example. It says, "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise." It speaks about how the law was our tutor, but that the tutor is no longer required because we've now acquired our full sonship under God through Christ. [QUOTE]There's one argument - that the laws are no longer physically necessary to follow, but that they are spiritually necessary. Plenty of debate.[/QUOTE] What does this even mean? Paul equates belief in Christ as a circumcision of the heart. He mentions it in Romans 3, but then clarifies in Romans 4:21 to the end of the chapter when he says: "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;" Also, what do you mean by "debate?" There's no debate about whether Christians are required to follow OT law within anything but the fringe sects of Christianity. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416524]Okay, cool, either way though... This is a big underlying theme in Christianity today, and it's largely the reason why Christians across the world are perfectly fine bebopping around in their lives under whatever government that's demanding they pay taxes and shit. I've thought this for a long time and especially so in more recent years but Christianity is thoroughly a slave's religion and always has been. Their messiah endured torture and hardship for all, serving the world until the end and being sacrificed, used up, like a slave. Like I said above, I can insult and demean Christ but you'd have a hard, hard time finding a Christian who would put me to death for it. Maybe not one to react angrily and fight me, but the most fervently devout Christians would declare that "the devil" speaking through me and not take the bait. Islam is not like that at all. It's a religion based around emulating the life and times of a fucking warlord, it's a religion soaked in blood.[/QUOTE] Christ referred to himself as a servant: Luke 22:27, "27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49416734]Yeah the Quran has plenty of "love thy neighbour" shit in it too. Ignoring the fact that the Old Testament is still used by a major world religion, the New Testament isn't all gumdrops and roses either.[/QUOTE]Of course not, and I'm not even asserting that Christians aren't capable of violence (holy shit yes they are) but their religious structure doesn't require them to defend the faith like some kind of angry ant hive. [QUOTE=Zeke129;49416734]I can only assume that ISIS wouldn't actually care. They want politically expedient targets, people already in the news for being anti-Islam so they can make an example of them. Just like how the "eat da poopoo" president of Uganda probably wouldn't order my execution for my sexuality unless I was some high profile gay rights activist.[/QUOTE]Okay, ignoring how you somehow got lost in the meaning of my statement let's analyze that. Uganda is a tiny nowhere country in Africa, All the Christians in Uganda probably wouldn't even be noticed if compared to all the Christians in the rest of the world. Meanwhile Daesh has [I]international support[/I] from Muslims worldwide, and a shit ton of affiliate groups in (last time I checked) eight predominantly Muslim countries. Meanwhile there's also tons of very, very, very crazy super fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups worldwide that have their own supporters. These aren't insignificant numbers either, these groups quite often enjoy tacit support and there's a good chance of encountering a radical shithead who approves of beheading a filthy pagan for indirectly comparing Islamic law to dog shit if you select a random Muslim out of the world's population. Out of ALL the Christians out there in the world the chances you'd find one who would happily kill you for being turbo Canadian gay is slim. Maybe beat your ass, sure, and while that isn't okay at all it's not really the same thing as putting you to death. Of course there's also a chance you get a Ugandan on the first roll and I'm stuck one of Isak's liberal Muslim friends. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;49416754]Christ referred to himself as a servant: Luke 22:27, "27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.[/QUOTE]Semantics aside, I hope you can see my point in that Christians don't have a firm commandment to defend the faith from any and all criticisms and ridicule. I mean I [I]basically[/I] insulted your messiah and your entire faith at least twice now, do you feel a deep need to see me killed for it? I'm guessing not, and that's why I can at least get along with even the most devout Christian. I could even get along with a devout Muslim if they didn't look at me like I was literally a demon the moment I say, "I'm a heathen, I believe in the gods of my ancestors."

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416811]Semantics aside, I hope you can see my point in that Christians don't have a firm commandment to defend the faith from any and all criticisms and ridicule. I mean I [I]basically[/I] insulted your messiah and your entire faith at least twice now, do you feel a deep need to see me killed for it? I'm guessing not, and that's why I can at least get along with even the most devout Christian. I could even get along with a devout Muslim if they didn't look at me like I was literally a demon the moment I say, "I'm a heathen, I believe in the gods of my ancestors."[/QUOTE] I think we're having a misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you. Christ represents himself as a servant or slave and calls his followers to be servants in the world. The Christian's response, like Christ's response, should be one of love and a deep care for the person's soul. It's hard for me to even relate to hating a person who hates or defames Jesus because of how foreign of a concept it would be. I don't believe that you'll find the idea of turning the other cheek or loving your enemy in Islamic texts. I may be wrong about that, but I believe it to be true from talking to Muslims I know and listening to Muslim apologists.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49416876] Muslim apologists.[/QUOTE] What does this even mean?

[QUOTE=sgman91;49416876]I think we're having a misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you. Christ represents himself as a servant or slave and calls his followers to be servants in the world. The Christian's response, like Christ's response, should be one of love and a deep care for the person's soul. It's hard for me to even relate to hating a person who hates or defames Jesus because of how foreign of a concept it would be.[/QUOTE]I really think the world would be a better place if more Christians actually paid attention to what Jesus had going on, so to be clear I fully support the message of the guy but I don't think he was holy. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] I also want to make it crystal clear to everyone that I have no problem with Muslims as a people. They're not any different than anyone else, still made of meat and bone and full of hot air and shit. Even so, everyone has the right to practice whatever silly shit they believe in as long as it harms nobody else. This is non-negotiable for me, and as hard as I may bitch about the finer nuances of that religion I will defend a Muslim's basic human right to practice because it's the right goddamn thing to do.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49416881]What does this even mean?[/QUOTE] An apologist is a defender of a belief system. It comes form the greek work apologia used in the New Testament in 1 Peter 3:15 Muslims refer to the practice as Dawah, although in Islam that term is more generalized to mean simply going out to proselytize. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416882]I really think the world would be a better place if more Christians actually paid attention to what Jesus had going on,[/QUOTE] I wouldn't hesitate to agree with this. Most Christians act like their religion is a country club or community center without ever really taking the teachings to heart. I think that why so much of the Bible refers to a person's relationship with God, not just a knowledge of his rules. When you know the love of God you can't help but show that love to others.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49416881]What does this even mean?[/QUOTE] Means you don't consider a certain religion as superior just because it's currently based primarily in countries where slaughtering infidels is no longer socially acceptable.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49416887]I wouldn't hesitate to agree with this. Most Christians act like their religion is a country club or community center without ever really taking the teachings to heart.[/QUOTE]Pretty much, it's one of the things that made me kind of disgusted with going to church because of the politics of all of it. Coupled with the saccharine sarcasm that everyone has come to know as a form of Minnesota Nice it quickly got awful, especially since I had trouble understanding the fine nuances of speech and took shit literally. When I guess I had my reawakening as a heathen I felt a lot better about everything. There's a lot of parallels in the Havamal with the Bible, especially about the parts of charity. I think a lot of my fellow heathens (Odinists, Asatruar, etc) don't really take that to heart as much as they should. There's some real dishonorable shit that goes on especially toward Christians, and whenever I see it I call it out fucking immediately. Faith, folk, and family right? None of these are served by letting some angsty shithead who's changed his facebook name to Ragnar Battlebloodson treat everyone else like shit because "hurr imma viking."

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416811]Of course not, and I'm not even asserting that Christians aren't capable of violence (holy shit yes they are) but their religious structure doesn't require them to defend the faith like some kind of angry ant hive.[/quote] Neither does Islam. There's a whole clause that lets you lie about being a Muslim and ignore it entirely if it's more convenient to do so. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49416811] Okay, ignoring how you somehow got lost in the meaning of my statement let's analyze that. Uganda is a tiny nowhere country in Africa, All the Christians in Uganda probably wouldn't even be noticed if compared to all the Christians in the rest of the world. Meanwhile Daesh has [I]international support[/I] from Muslims worldwide, and a shit ton of affiliate groups in (last time I checked) eight predominantly Muslim countries. Meanwhile there's also tons of very, very, very crazy super fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups worldwide that have their own supporters. These aren't insignificant numbers either, these groups quite often enjoy tacit support and there's a good chance of encountering a radical shithead who approves of beheading a filthy pagan for indirectly comparing Islamic law to dog shit if you select a random Muslim out of the world's population. Out of ALL the Christians out there in the world the chances you'd find one who would happily kill you for being turbo Canadian gay is slim. Maybe beat your ass, sure, and while that isn't okay at all it's not really the same thing as putting you to death.[/quote] The "kill the gays" bill in Uganda was lobbied for by North American Evangelical groups. That doesn't count as international support of religious extremism? There are people in my country, probably my province, that are directly financially supporting these actions. If someone gave money to ISIS they'd be jailed.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;49417023]Neither does Islam. There's a whole clause that lets you lie about being a Muslim and ignore it entirely if it's more convenient to do so.[/QUOTE]Oh they absolutely do have passages dictating Muslims to defend the faith, and none of that is invalidated by being able to lie about being a Muslim if it's for safety. Same thing with eating things normally deemed haram, a Muslim can do it in an emergency but that doesn't mean it's A-OK to do it when it's not. [QUOTE=Zeke129;49417023]The "kill the gays" bill in Uganda was lobbied for by North American Evangelical groups. That doesn't count as international support of religious extremism? There are people in my country, probably my province, that are directly financially supporting these actions. If someone gave money to ISIS they'd be jailed.[/QUOTE]Of course it does, but are you seriously asserting the vast majority of Americans who simultaneously condemned that same bill as supporters of religious extremism? Those same evangelical groups are regarded as a laughingstock here by the way, same as they are in your country, and even if they weren't they don't make a habit of going out and killing gay people. Aside from [I]all[/I] of that, there's nothing outside of one [U]tiny[/U] portion in Leviticus (Old Testament by the way) that even hints at bringing harm to homosexuals and even then the wording is real ambiguous and open to interpretation. So once more I will say this: those "Christian evangelicals" are literally not Christians in practice because they are following laws meant for Jews, laws that failed to make the Jews a righteous people, and in doing so [I]they are saying fuck you to God himself.[/I] Daesh is not full of heretics, they're quite literally doing everything Islamic holy texts are telling them to do so the comparison is, once again, bullshit.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49417062] Of course it does, but are you seriously asserting the vast majority of Americans who simultaneously condemned that same bill as supporters of religious extremism? Those same evangelical groups are regarded as a laughingstock here by the way, same as they are in your country, and even if they weren't they don't make a habit of going out and killing gay people. Aside from [I]all[/I] of that, there's nothing outside of one [U]tiny[/U] portion in Leviticus (Old Testament by the way) that even hints at bringing harm to homosexuals and even then the wording is real ambiguous and open to interpretation. So once more I will say this: those "Christian evangelicals" are literally not Christians in practice because they are following laws meant for Jews, laws that failed to make the Jews a righteous people, and in doing so [I]they are saying fuck you to God himself.[/I] Daesh is not full of heretics, they're quite literally doing everything Islamic holy texts are telling them to do so the comparison is, once again, bullshit.[/QUOTE] They're the laughing stock in a [I]modern society[/I]. Funny how many horrible things that wouldn't make somebody a ~true Christian~ today have been perfectly acceptable for over a millennia, and we just so happened to figure out the "right" interpretation when society finally moved on, almost as if people will just interpret things however the hell they want regardless of what their book says. It's also kind of funny how Christians either have half a holy book that's either competely non-canon, or a not-so-infallible God that was perfectly okay with everything in it until he changed his mind.

Wtf Edit: i rarely see this happen actually Edit 2: oh it's aceh nvm

[QUOTE=Mingebox;49417125]They're the laughing stock in a [I]modern society[/I]. Funny how many horrible things that wouldn't make somebody a ~true Christian~ today have been perfectly acceptable for over a millennia, and we just so happened to figure out the "right" interpretation when society finally moved on, almost as if people will just interpret things however the hell they want regardless of what their book says. It's also kind of funny how Christians either have half a holy book that's either competely non-canon, or a not-so-infallible God that was perfectly okay with everything in it until he changed his mind.[/QUOTE]I'm not going to comment on what was or wasn't okay in the past because, ho ho, that doesn't make anything happening [I]now[/I] okay. If it was wrong then it is, yes you guessed it, also wrong today. That's probably why all the medieval bullshit that's actively practiced in Islam and used as the basis for multiple legal codes in multiple countries is something that we, as Westerners who grew up in a fair and decent society, can't feel comfortable with. Especially when it leads to people being beaten with canes, or stoned to death, or dangled from a rope suspended by a crane until they die of strangulation, or simply being killed by their family members. How am I supposed to respect a culture that does that shit and in response to the most benign of offenses? Premarital sex warrants execution? I mean come the fuck on, at least in the Old Testament that was A-OK if you paid for it and bought yourself a new wife. And really it's not at all hard to figure out here, sgman91 laid it out pretty neatly why the Old Testament is basically reference material and Svinnik neatly pointed out why Christians don't follow 613 extra commandments listed in the Torah in addition to the original ten. Questioning the Christian's God aside, what does that have to do with the crazy bullshit found in Islam? Like I'm not even sure why people have even brought up Christianity when we were never, ever talking about that religion. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] (do note that when I say "culture" I mean in general, it's been pointed out that the caning for being near a woman is an Indonesian thing, but certain fucked up things don't have borders)

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49416140]and you're ignoring the hundreds of millions of muslims that believe in killing apostates, stoning homosexuals and treating women as second-class citizens.[/QUOTE] Thats quite a generalization there, Do you have any sources that prove those numbers, or are you just pulling them out your ass?

[QUOTE=Toro;49417758]Thats quite a generalization there, Do you have any sources that prove those numbers, or are you just pulling them out your ass?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/[/url]

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49417806][url]http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/[/url][/QUOTE] "Attitudes toward Islamic law vary significantly by region." However I don't entirely disagree, and I didn't fully read the study.. But yeah, you can find bunch of people (even western countries) who have dangerously scary beliefs about how society&law should be, how everything should be just Sharia law. As for the hundreds of millions believing in killing apostates? I don't know, if they say that they should be killed themselves.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49414850][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning[/url] [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] Why not boycott and set trade embargoes countries that do this? Not like this is Saudi, who has our oil. We did the same with Cuba for much less.[/QUOTE] Because that would make your country ~Islamophobic~

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49418777]Because that would make your country ~Islamophobic~[/QUOTE] Not at all. Are we racist against Cubans for starting that stupid embargo? No.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49417191]I'm not going to comment on what was or wasn't okay in the past because, ho ho, that doesn't make anything happening [I]now[/I] okay. If it was wrong then it is, yes you guessed it, also wrong today. That's probably why all the medieval bullshit that's actively practiced in Islam and used as the basis for multiple legal codes in multiple countries is something that we, as Westerners who grew up in a fair and decent society, can't feel comfortable with. Especially when it leads to people being beaten with canes, or stoned to death, or dangled from a rope suspended by a crane until they die of strangulation, or simply being killed by their family members. How am I supposed to respect a culture that does that shit and in response to the most benign of offenses? Premarital sex warrants execution? I mean come the fuck on, at least in the Old Testament that was A-OK if you paid for it and bought yourself a new wife. And really it's not at all hard to figure out here, sgman91 laid it out pretty neatly why the Old Testament is basically reference material and Svinnik neatly pointed out why Christians don't follow 613 extra commandments listed in the Torah in addition to the original ten. Questioning the Christian's God aside, what does that have to do with the crazy bullshit found in Islam? Like I'm not even sure why people have even brought up Christianity when we were never, ever talking about that religion. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] (do note that when I say "culture" I mean in general, it's been pointed out that the caning for being near a woman is an Indonesian thing, but certain fucked up things don't have borders)[/QUOTE] Whoever's technically correct about the old testament is irrelevant, because people can and [i]have[/I] taken it as truth, and unless the author shows up to issue a revised edution, a shitty society can do so again. Either religion is just as capable of being backwards and barbaric as it is watered-down and sanitized, but followers of both tend to follow whatever is socially convenient, which is why smugly congratulating yourself for supporting the "better" Chose Your Own Moral System book is absurd.

The lack of understanding on how society works in this thread is alarming. I guess being in a 1st world country does not necessarily grants us a better insight that those in 3rd world

[QUOTE=.Isak.;49416388]I don't know where you heard that I didn't grow up in a religious household. Pretty staunchly Republican Lutheran household in the middle of Texas. I exaggerated by saying I "studied" it, but I've taken interest in it and read a lot about different topics concerning the Bible, mostly the more philosophical medieval shit like Aquinas and Augustine and Boethius. A five-second google search will show you how contentious the idea that the OT was dismissed is. Almost every theologian in the world will agree that it absolutely wasn't. There's hundreds of different arguments about it, though. Paul argued that circumcision wasn't necessary in the letter to the Galatians, but made the argument that it was a spiritualized practice and that the physical circumcision in accordance with the law was no longer necessary after Jesus had "fulfilled" the law, but that a spiritual counterpart to circumcision was. There's one argument - that the laws are no longer physically necessary to follow, but that they are spiritually necessary. Plenty of d [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Is still not posting sources" - Craptasket))[/highlight][/QUOTE] That explains everything. Lutherans believe and practice a completely different form of Christianity.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;49418828]Whoever's technically correct about the old testament is irrelevant, because people can and [i]have[/I] taken it as truth, and unless the author shows up to issue a revised edution, a shitty society can do so again. Either religion is just as capable of being backwards and barbaric as it is watered-down and sanitized, but followers of both tend to follow whatever is socially convenient, which is why smugly congratulating yourself for supporting the "better" Chose Your Own Moral System book is absurd.[/QUOTE]Mm. No. [quote=Quran 2:191-193]And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun.[/quote] Remember when I said I'm a heathen? Yeah, this verse specifically talks about killing me. See when I point this one out Muslims tend to get [I]really fucking quiet[/I] because unlike Christians and Jews I have no protections from their religious violence. I can keep going by the way, I've got about a hundred specific verses from the Quran alone that deal with this sort of shit. They're not ambiguous, they're not "oh but look at the context..." type of deals, they are straight-up and straight-forward. In case you're wondering what the context is here, it's detailing about how Mohammad and his "peaceful followers" had gone to Medina and were planning to drive out the "polytheists and unbelievers" from Mecca. Why was he in Medina? Because the Meccans booted him and his followers out (after thirteen years of tolerating them) because they didn't like the shit he was selling and how he wanted to smash all the idols in the Kaaba. (idols to the many, many gods in the many different faiths found within the city, Mecca was really cosmopolitan for it's day) In case you're wondering how this story ends, Mohammad formed and army, sacked Mecca, and then brutally slaughtered anyone he could catch who didn't convert. Mostly people who made fun of him though, and their slaves because why the fuck not? Blood for the blood god! So let's recap: This is a religion based around the teachings of a guy who managed to get kicked out of a very tolerant and inclusive city and instead of wondering what he did wrong he formed an army and slaughtered it's inhabitants that didn't immediately flee. Even aside from all of that crazy, crazy shit, the bible has [B]nothing[/B] in comparison to that aside from God himself blowing shit up. I still don't understand why we're even talking about Christianity at all when [I]again[/I] the two religions are not even remotely comparable. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] Oh and that verse and the events it references are (probably) the sole reason why Muslims detest heathens, pagans, and polytheists in general. It's also why the Quran says in no uncertain terms that secular societies are bullshit and Muslims don't have to play nice with them, all because Mecca was originally a happy-go-lucky all-included nice place that Islam irreversibly fucked up.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422060]Mm. No. Remember when I said I'm a heathen? Yeah, this verse specifically talks about killing me. See when I point this one out Muslims tend to get [I]really fucking quiet[/I] because unlike Christians and Jews I have no protections from their religious violence. I can keep going by the way, I've got about a hundred specific verses from the Quran alone that deal with this sort of shit. They're not ambiguous, they're not "oh but look at the context..." type of deals, they are straight-up and straight-forward. In case you're wondering what the context is here, it's detailing about how Mohammad and his "peaceful followers" had gone to Medina and were planning to drive out the "polytheists and unbelievers" from Mecca. Why was he in Medina? Because the Meccans booted him and his followers out (after thirteen years of tolerating them) because they didn't like the shit he was selling and how he wanted to smash all the idols in the Kaaba. (idols to the many, many gods in the many different faiths found within the city, Mecca was really cosmopolitan for it's day) In case you're wondering how this story ends, Mohammad formed and army, sacked Mecca, and then brutally slaughtered anyone he could catch who didn't convert. Mostly people who made fun of him though, and their slaves because why the fuck not? Blood for the blood god! So let's recap: This is a religion based around the teachings of a guy who managed to get kicked out of a very tolerant and inclusive city and instead of wondering what he did wrong he formed an army and slaughtered it's inhabitants that didn't immediately flee. Even aside from all of that crazy, crazy shit, the bible has [B]nothing[/B] in comparison to that aside from God himself blowing shit up. I still don't understand why we're even talking about Christianity at all when [I]again[/I] the two religions are not even remotely comparable.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, like Christians never sacked any cities and slaughtered the heathens. You can find plenty of calls to violence in the Bible, along with the all the other sorts of backwards beliefs. But it doesn't matter if the Bible has just have the infidel slaughtering action, because one line is all extremists need to kill people. You can argue about how the New Testament is competely non-canon, and what a great religion it would be if everyone just did what Jesus said until you're blue in the face, but I think it borders on sycophantic to gives Christians a pat on the back for being so much better than Muslims after they had to be dragged every step into it's currently watered-down version after over a thousand years of violence and oppression.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]Oh yeah, like Christians never sacked any cities and slaughtered the heathens.[/QUOTE]I never once said that Christians aren't capable of violence, I actually said that they are. Either way, we're talking about fucking [I]prophets[/I] so please, show me the verse where Jesus got in his gundam and sacked Jerusalem. [QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]You can find plenty of calls to violence in the Bible, along with the all the other sorts of backwards beliefs.[/QUOTE]I recall the actual teachings of Jesus Christ to be quite the opposite of that, so please, point it out. [QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]But it doesn't matter if the Bible has just have the infidel slaughtering action, because one line is all extremists need to kill people.[/QUOTE]I already covered that, becau-* [QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]You can argue about how the New Testament is competely non-canon,[/QUOTE]You should really pay attention to what the fuck is going on. I already pointed out that these "calls to violence" and "backwards beliefs" are all part of the Jewish shit that Christians absolutely do not have to follow at all and shouldn't, Jesus fulfilled the law and sacrificed himself for man's sins which is the fundamental fucking core of Christianity. You have no point. [QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]and what a great religion it would be if everyone just did what Jesus said until you're blue in the face,[/QUOTE]It would be. Actually the [U]world[/U] would be a better place if everyone was just a little bit nicer and more righteous which was what Jesus was trying to get across to everyone. [QUOTE=Mingebox;49422302]but I think it borders on sycophantic to gives Christians a pat on the back for being so much better than Muslims after they had to be dragged every step into it's currently watered-down version after over a thousand years of violence and oppression.[/QUOTE]No it's not at all a "watered-down version" it's the actual for fucking real version, that's why the various anti-war and anti-conflict Christian denominations and groups that have been around for the better part of two millennia have gotten so much shit. They're the real deal, everyone else is the same phony, self-serving jackasses they've always been and deep down they realize it. You can really, really see that shit in today's churches and this is what sgman91 and I were talking about by the way; if you had bothered to pay attention rather than looking for a sick zinger you would have seen that. You have yet to refute anything I've said. All you've done is go "yeah well heh look at the christians." Yeah, what the fuck about them? Find me an equivalent [I]New Testament[/I] verse that matches up with what I quoted from the Quran. Your other point? "Well there are words in a book that extremists can use..." Fucking please get the fuck out of here with that silly bullshit, John Lennon was shot because some fucking dude read The Catcher In The Rye so anything anywhere can be used as justification for the crazy, fucked-up shit people do. This is not about extremists, I'm talking about an entire belief system that has a foundation soaked in blood. You keep going "w-well... v-violent words in the bible!!!" when Christianity spread among [U]slaves[/U] and [U]servants[/U] completely without an ounce of violence while Islam would not have spread at all if it wasn't done at the point of a sword. Everything that came after that is just people being people, and again, I'm going after the core of the religion itself I could not give a shit about Salladin's campaign, the Crusades, the intifadas, the inquisitions, none of it. I'm going after the fundamental basis of what the religion of Islam is all about and it is [U]not[/U] peaceful coexistence with everyone else.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] You should really pay attention to what the fuck is going on. I already pointed out that these "calls to violence" and "backwards beliefs" are all part of the Jewish shit that Christians absolutely do not have to follow at all and shouldn't[/quote] And yet they have and continue to do so. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] No it's not at all a "watered-down version" it's the actual for fucking real version, that's why the various anti-war and anti-conflict Christian denominations and groups that have been around for the better part of two millennia have gotten so much shit. They're the real deal, everyone else is the same phony, self-serving jackasses they've always been and deep down they realize it. You can really, really see that shit in today's churches and this is what sgman91 and I were talking about by the way; if you had bothered to pay attention rather than looking for a sick zinger you would have seen that.[/quote] Oh now they're the real ones. All those hundreds of years before, they had it all wrong. They weren't [I]real [/I]Christians. But now they've finally got it, and just in time, too, because doing inquisitions and stuff was getting to be a bit of a faux pas. Speaking of self-serving jackasses, maybe you should how still quite varied peoples interpretations on giving away material possessions and rendering unto Caesar is. [/quote] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] You have yet to refute anything I've said.[/quote] Probably because I don't give a shit about Islam, but do give a shit about giving a religion credit for simply playing catchup with modern sensibilities. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] All you've done is go "yeah well heh look at the christians." Yeah, what the fuck about them? Find me an equivalent [I]New Testament[/I] verse that matches up with what I quoted from the Quran. Your other point? "Well there are words in a book that extremists can use..." Fucking please get the fuck out of here with that silly bullshit, John Lennon was shot because some fucking dude read The Catcher In The Rye so anything anywhere can be used as justification for the crazy, fucked-up shit people do. [/quote] And once again, the Old Testament always seems to be conveniently invalid by who don't like it's rules and valid by people who do. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] when Christianity spread among [U]slaves[/U] and [U]servants[/U] completely without an ounce of violence[/quote]LMAO. Yeah, right up until they had enough to enough people so start spreading through pointy bits of metal, and quite frequently, amusingly enough, to slaves and servants. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] while Islam would not have spread at all if it wasn't done at the point of a sword. [/quote] No more than Christianity. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49422535] Everything that came after that is just people being people, and again, I'm going after the core of the religion itself I could not give a shit about Salladin's campaign, the Crusades, the intifadas, the inquisitions, none of it. I'm going after the fundamental basis of what the religion of Islam is all about and it is [U]not[/U] peaceful coexistence with everyone else.[/QUOTE]If history has shown anything, the "core" of a religion doesn't really matter a whole lot. As you say yourself, people are just being people, and seeing as how people can justify such a wide range of behaviours based on the same religion, the fine details don't really matter.

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