California is the first state to ban gay reparative therapy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE] You clearly haven't seen what these camps do. There's a difference between teaching someone or showing them a fantasy an actively trying to force them to repress a part of their psyche with no regard for the harm you are doing. Read that Reddit link up there.

If homosexuality is a choice then why would you need therapy to choose to be straight?

Seriously, what you said was just dumb. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] (ninjas in this place)

[QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE] It's fraudulent to make the claim that these people will provide therapy for something that isn't even a disorder. The problem isn't that people are willingly going into these programs, the problem is that these programs are advertised as therapy when they really aren't. For someone to make that claim is misleading. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] And people who join these programs aren't really exercising free will because they are being coerced or mislead into thinking that these people will help. It's like saying that you have a choice whether to be scammed or not, so companies making fraudulent claims should be legal.

I think powerball just misunderstood the thread

this made no sense snip

So I just dug into some information about the people who run these camps. And of course it's right there on Wikipedia. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Association_of_Specialty_Programs_and_Schools#Controversy[/url] Apparently the founder of this anti-gay organization is one of Mitt Romney's biggest campaign funders. Welp, guess the choice is clear now. Obama 2012.

[QUOTE=PowerBall v1;36189931]or how about uh LETTING PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT TO[/QUOTE] You mean like, you know, brainwashing confused and lost people into thinking their lifestyle is horrible and wrong? It's not a real 'therapy', it's brainwashing. This is not an opinion, this is [B]SOLID [/B]fact. [QUOTE=PowerBall v1;36190028]I know gay people (I think) that didn't do this and yhey turned out fine. So what's the big deal? Why is this important? Why should I care?[/QUOTE] Clearly you don't get anything, at all. It's fraud, it's lying, it's brainwashing. There is nothing 'good' about this therapy. It's taking confused people and making them even more confused, possibly even suicidal, as if somethings wrong with them, when there's nothing they can actually do, and there's not that is actually wrong. This therapy is as bad as forced abortions, forced religious conversion, forcing someone to think and act a certain way, forcing someone to live another life than their own, just because you don't like a certain issue which isn't actually an issue. [QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE] You're right, it is not the governments job to choose your life. This is very correct, and a very noble and true statement. Except you're being pretty ignorant. It's the governments very duty to protect it's people from really bad things, specifically things like this. Brain washing, fraud, etcetc. It's like providing drugs to cure alcoholism, which don't actually cure anything at all, or using "quantum energy" in order to cure cancer, or make your OCD go away, or use the stars to predict the future. It's a bullshit science, and it should be banned outright nationally and completely. [QUOTE=yawmwen;36190361]It's fraudulent to make the claim that these people will provide therapy for something that isn't even a disorder. The problem isn't that people are willingly going into these programs, the problem is that these programs are advertised as therapy when they really aren't. For someone to make that claim is misleading. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] And people who join these programs aren't really exercising free will because they are being coerced or mislead into thinking that these people will help. It's like saying that you have a choice whether to be scammed or not, so companies making fraudulent claims should be legal.[/QUOTE] Not only that, but the people going into these programs are at a fork in the road, they have no idea what to do, they're confused. They're letting others choose what only they should figure out.

proud to be a californian today

[QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE] You know this is straight up fascist shit, right?

"What do you mean electric shock treatment doesn't zap the gay away?"

These "camps" are obviously bad, but what about some sort of simple, peaceful, voluntary therapy? I don't know of any of the techniques used, but a complete ban seems a bit too controlling.

[QUOTE=GrassyBat;36190735]These "camps" are obviously bad, but what about some sort of simple, peaceful, voluntary therapy? I don't know of any of the techniques used, but a complete ban seems a bit too controlling.[/QUOTE] Like I said, therapy is used to treat disorders. Homosexuality isn't a disorder. Also, no therapy has been shown to be effective, and no evidence shows that sexuality is something that can really be changed, at least on the vast majority of people. The fact that homosexuality isn't a disorder, and that the therapy isn't effective, means that the law shouldn't treat this therapy as a real therapy. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] And since therapy is something that tends to be restricted by the state in various ways, that means that it is banned.

[QUOTE=PowerBall v1;36189931]or how about uh LETTING PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT TO[/QUOTE] I think this is mostly just the state government trying to protect a group of people from something that has no scientific basis and has dangerous results. This isn't a matter of civil liberties. The people in these programs are typically coerced into participating. Not only are these programs ineffective, they are dangerous. You can honestly almost relate it to the brainwashing that goes on inside of Scientology. If this was an ethical, sensitive, and scientifically based program that was 100% voluntary with no coercion, it would possibly be a different story. (Though you have to question the ethics behind such a program in the first place)

[QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE]This is the same as the FDA mandating standards for the preparation of food sold in shops so you don't get botulism; reparative "therapy" is absolute bullshit of the highest order and blatantly harmful. It has no right to be called therapy, it's completely unscientific, exploits vulnerable people who don't know better and/or are forced into it; and quite frankly has no place in society.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;36192031]This is the same as the FDA mandating standards for the preparation of food sold in shops so you don't get botulism; reparative "therapy" is absolute bullshit of the highest order and blatantly harmful. It has no right to be called therapy, it's completely unscientific, exploits vulnerable people who don't know better and/or are forced into it; and quite frankly has no place in society.[/QUOTE] Supportive therapy is what is needed for cases like these. Help someone confirm and become comfortable with their sexuality. Supportive therapy should be more readily available to teenagers and young adults. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supportive_psychotherapy[/url]

[QUOTE=Jager_57;36190294]The same could be said for churches, schools, and television. Regardless of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of something, It's not the government's job to make your life choices for you.[/QUOTE] Yes, but this is child abuse. There should be a line drawn. By your logic, if a parent wants, they can have their children in a program where they do slave labor for Catholic priests if they want to. If you're a full grown adult and want to make a decision that no sane adult would make, then sure. But protect the vulnerable confused gay teenagers who have absolutely no power. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] I like how extreme conservatives don't believe in pretty much any psychological disorders, but believe that homosexuality is a disorder.

[QUOTE=GrassyBat;36190735]These "camps" are obviously bad, but what about some sort of simple, peaceful, voluntary therapy? I don't know of any of the techniques used, but a complete ban seems a bit too controlling.[/QUOTE] Except gay isn't a disorder, it's not a problem, and it's something you can't just "Change" like that, which is what therapy treats. Any 'voluntary ' therapy would be to control things that the person controls anyways. You control who you have sex with, you can't control who you are attracted to.

Fuck yeah, my state!

-[I]progress[/I]-

Which means soon Washington will see this and go "shit why didn't we think of that" and become the second (maybe third) state to do this.

[QUOTE=lavacano;36204033]Which means soon Washington will see this and go "shit why didn't we think of that" and become the second (maybe third) state to do this.[/QUOTE] I don't know, it took us a while to legalize gay marriage, and it still might be banned again. Washington is pretty fucking conservative, despite how we vote in presidential elections.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36204075]I don't know, it took us a while to legalize gay marriage, and it still might be banned again. Washington is pretty fucking conservative, despite how we vote in presidential elections.[/QUOTE] Most of this state is Conservative. Honestly, the only strong democratic county we have is King county. And because of King county's size (largely due to Seattle, with its population of 3.5 million versus the state's population of 6.8 million [yes, you read right; over half of the entire state's population lives in Seattle]), the voting power of King county supercedes the next five biggest counties. I had to do a paper on this for a political science course. :v: [img]http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/img.php?type=map&year=2008&fips=53&st=WA&off=0&elect=0[/img] Note how the western (left) coast is all Democrat, yet the entirety of Eastern Washington (right) voted strong Republican, with the exception of one county.

Which is a major argument for Eastern Washington seceding from Washington and becoming its own state. It's pretty unfair for a single county to have such power over the entire state. Taxes get levied that only benefit projects in King County and the Seattle Metropolitan area, paid for by people in Spokane who will never see the benefit from these projects.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36206051]Which is a major argument for Eastern Washington seceding from Washington and becoming its own state. It's pretty unfair for a single county to have such power over the entire state. Taxes get levied that only benefit projects in King County and the Seattle Metropolitan area, paid for by people in Spokane who will never see the benefit from these projects.[/QUOTE] on the flip-side, the low-population counties are not self-sufficient, and the higher tax revenue from the Seattle area most assuredly goes, in part, toward picking up the slack for the lower-revenue/population areas. i.e. if it costs a $1.000.000/yr to fund a police department in Spokane, but Spokane only has $500.000 in its budget for that particular department, the higher revenue from Seattle goes toward that department. This is why the "people from X shouldn't have to pay for Y" arguments are defunct in this day and age. If that were the policy, places like East Washington would be in serious trouble, and seeing some of your tax revenue going toward somewhere else would be the least of your worries.

Reminds me of how our geography teacher described California a while ago. "California is one of the most forward states of the United States. Which is why most of the gay porn is shot there." Great times.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36204075]I don't know, it took us a while to legalize gay marriage, and it still might be banned again. [/QUOTE] California still hasn't legalized gay marriage. Prop 8

[QUOTE=Lankist;36206115]on the flip-side, the low-population counties are not self-sufficient, and the higher tax revenue from the Seattle area most assuredly goes, in part, toward picking up the slack for the lower-revenue/population areas. i.e. if it costs a $1.000.000/yr to fund a police department in Spokane, but Spokane only has $500.000 in its budget for that particular department, the higher revenue from Seattle goes toward that department. This is why the "people from X shouldn't have to pay for Y" arguments are defunct in this day and age. If that were the policy, places like East Washington would be in serious trouble, and seeing some of your tax revenue going toward somewhere else would be the least of your worries.[/QUOTE] Well, considering that is un-cited, I would say it's postulation akin to my comment about Eastern Washington becoming the 51st state. I have no idea where to find this sort of information though, so go figure, because now I'm curious.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;36189943]its pseudo-thepary that's a waste of money and doesn't resolve anything if you're gay, you're gay, there's nothing to argue about[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand the concept of letting people do what they want to do. It is not necessarily going to lead to them doing what you want them to do.

[QUOTE=Capitulazyguy;36206572]I don't think you understand the concept of letting people do what they want to do. It is not necessarily going to lead to them doing what you want them to do.[/QUOTE]It's the way the "therapy" advertises itself as anything other than a completely destructive process that will ravage the minds of those subjected to it. We have laws that protect people from this sort of thing. The same way we have laws against selling food that is actually poison.