Active shooter in Colorado - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DuCT;49200146]McVeigh was a self professed Agnostic, who also said that science was his religion.[/QUOTE] Iffy claim that's pushed by Breitbart and other such right-wingers. McVeigh claimed this, but he also said he believed in Catholicism (he was raised a Catholic), stated he "maintained core beliefs" in Catholicism, and he requested and received last rites at his execution. Also, the standoff between the government and the Branch Davidian Christian cultists at Waco was a tremendously influential factor on what motivated him to conduct the bombing too. McVeigh had his own philosophy, but he still unquestionably incorporated his religious beliefs into them. Maybe it was all part of a dramatic performance and he was subtly appealing for sympathy, maybe he had a dual personality, maybe he had his own strange interpretation of things... in any case, he was a Christian. His background was Christian, his statements about his core beliefs by his own admission reflected him as a Christian, and one of his last gestures before he was executed was to receive one of the most important sacraments in the Catholic faith.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49199640]People seem to forget one of the most deadly bombings committed in the United States was by a white Christian named Timothy McVeigh[/QUOTE] 168 people died in okc yeah but okc was in retaliation to waco and ruby ridge where the US government killed about 85 people for doing fuck all but defending themselves from a bunch of jackboots who shot first and without warning mcveigh is what tvtropes would call a fallen hero. he was left with PTSD after his service in the persian gulf war and vented his frustrations the only way he knew how besides that he was agnostic

[QUOTE=butre;49200863]I don't know about that, planned parenthood is controversial on both sides. it wouldn't exactly be a stretch to say someone who didn't like the way they try and talk women out of abortions probably did it. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] other countries have stabbings and beatings at an incredible rate though[/QUOTE] I think that's a substantially bigger stretch than the alternative, tbh. An extremist pro-choicer who shot up a Planned Parenthood for [I]not doing enough abortions?[/I] I'm just not seeing it, dude.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;49200161]11 people have been injured and transferred to local hospitals. 5 of them are officers. No confirmed fatalities.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/11/27/active-shooter-at-planned-parenthood-in-colorado-springs-police-and-fire-officials-say/"]Press conference announced[/URL] that two civilians and one police officer have died from wounds incurred during the shootout. The officer has an [URL="http://www.odmp.org/officer/22670-police-officer-garrett-swasey"]ODMP page[/URL].

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49201000]I think that's a substantially bigger stretch than the alternative, tbh. An extremist pro-choicer who shot up a Planned Parenthood for [I]not doing enough abortions?[/I] I'm just not seeing it, dude.[/QUOTE] I was thinking more like a pissed off boyfriend who's girlfriend got talked down from an abortion.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49198783]Is this domestic terrorism, or an escalation of something else? Personal beef turned deadly? Somebody running from the cops and holing up here at random? Besides the officers injured, are there any suspected or confirmed civilian deaths? [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] It's not that far-fetched, especially given the national controversy surrounding Planned Parenthood this past year. Not all extremists are from the Middle East. On US soil, Christian, Anti-government, and other Right Wing extremists have killed more than twice as many people as Jihadists in the years since 9/11.[/QUOTE] thats bullshit right there total fucking bullshit because jihadists have killed thousands and right wing crazies have killed eh 100's? at the most

-snip wrong tab opened-

[QUOTE=Billy-Bobfred;49201083]thats bullshit right there total fucking bullshit because jihadists have killed thousands and right wing crazies have killed eh 100's? at the most[/QUOTE] If you bothered to actually read his post, you'd see "On US soil...since 9/11". Jihadists have certainly not killed thousands on US soil since 9/11. Right wing, Christian extremists have been long considered to be one of the biggest terrorist threats in the US.

[QUOTE=butre;49200998]168 people died in okc yeah but okc was in retaliation to waco and ruby ridge where the US government killed about 85 people for doing fuck all but defending themselves from a bunch of jackboots who shot first and without warning mcveigh is what tvtropes would call a fallen hero. he was left with PTSD after his service in the persian gulf war and vented his frustrations the only way he knew how besides that he was agnostic[/QUOTE] This is the most absurd bullshit I have read on Facepunch quite possibly ever. The Branch Davidians were a lunatic Christian cult formed out of the Seventh-Day Adventists that practiced everything from child marriages to weird sex rituals (including child sexual abuse and statutory rape) run by a man (Howell, later Koresh) who forced male members to observe celibacy while he fucked their wives and daughters, was building a fringe militia to act as an "Army of God" for the end times, horded firearms and explosives (powder and grenade casings)... [url=http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all]it was a miserable cult that needed to be busted by law enforcement one way or another[/url], and if you think otherwise, I question your sanity and intelligence on the matter. There is no reason why any human being should sympathize with the Branch Davidians or especially David Koresh; what they were doing was wrong, especially what they were doing to innocent children. Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a white supremacist, attended Aryan Nations rallies, illegally modified and sold weapons, and refused to help the government infiltrate the Aryan Nations after they busted him for his firearms activities. He was not defending himself lol, he thought he could fight his way out of his situation, kept his wife and kids with him with no regard for their safety, and got them and himself fucked in the face in the end. Idealizing McVeigh as a "fallen hero" is ridiculous, and it shows how ridiculous you are dude. He was a paranoid right-wing would-be revolutionary who thought socialism and the United Nations were taking over America, thought taxes were an infringement of the American government against its citizens (they're not; they're how we pay for basically everything public and decent), was the worst kind of gun nut and overzealously engrossed himself in gun culture (seeing anything that might restrict open gun rights as government tyranny; the NRA wasn't even good enough for him lol), thought nuclear war might devastate the country at any moment (hence why he ran to Arizona)... he was a neurotic idiot who wanted to feel important before he ever went to the Gulf War, and he killed a shitton of innocent people for no reason at all other than to satiate this need to find unwarranted self-importance.

[QUOTE=Billy-Bobfred;49201083]thats bullshit right there total fucking bullshit because jihadists have killed thousands and right wing crazies have killed eh 100's? at the most[/QUOTE] im breaking my own rule to not post on this forum to remind you, some rando, that right wing crazies designed the war in iraq my dogg. peace.

[QUOTE=butre;49201029]I was thinking more like a pissed off boyfriend who's girlfriend got talked down from an abortion.[/QUOTE] PP doesn't talk people down from that. If anything, he'd be angry that she got an abortion there.

im glad he did; but why would you surrender to just sit in prison for the rest of your days?

[QUOTE=Govna;49201227] Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a white supremacist, attended Aryan Nations rallies, illegally modified and sold weapons, and refused to help the government infiltrate the Aryan Nations after they busted him for his firearms activities. He was not defending himself lol, he thought he could fight his way out of his situation, kept his wife and kids with him with no regard for their safety, and got them and himself fucked in the face in the end. [/QUOTE] You forgot were the FBI shot his wife who was holding their infant son who posed no danger to anyone, or literally the rest of the massive fuck up of an operation. He wasn't a good guy,but the actions of that day partly led to the creation of various militia groups popular in the mid-90's. All of those events you mentioned had controversies, and those controversies are not to be taken lightly just because you think no matter what something should have been done, because as you see, the end results helped to lead to domestic terror attacks in the US.

[QUOTE=DemonElite;49201118]since 9/11[/QUOTE] why do people say this why would you not include 9/11

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;49201387]why do people say this why would you not include 9/11[/QUOTE] Because it doesn't fit the agenda.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;49201387]why do people say this why would you not include 9/11[/QUOTE] Even before 9/11 it was still largely right wing, christian, or environmentalist extremists and not muslims, 9/11 was just kinda that "big one" that people think of when we talk about terrorism purely because of the scale of the attack. As for for why BDA didn't include pre-9/11 is beyond me, my personal assumption is because 9/11 defined for the American populace what terrorism looks like and was an isolated mass casualty event that's burned into the minds of pretty much every American that witnessed it either in person or on television, but you'd really have to ask him.

There's an inherent difference between organizational terrorism like 9/11 and loners who are likely not quite all there in the head like McVeigh. There's no meaningful comparison beyond the fact that they both kill people. (along with all murders)

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;49201387]why do people say this why would you not include 9/11[/QUOTE] 9/11 is what really instilled the fear of terrorism, especially religious extremism, in the United States on a massive scale. Referencing 9/11 isn't arbitrary, it's to make the point that, for all the fear of Islamic extremism that this attack provoked within our own borders, it is still good old fashioned domestic terrorism that has proved the more common threat to the every day Joe. The only point I was trying to make with that statement is that Christian extremists, anti-government insurgents, and various other political or ideological radicals have committed a notable number of acts of mass violence (domestic terrorism) on US soil, which makes immediately ruling out the possibility of an attack on a politically sensitive target as being an act of terrorism a bit silly. [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;49201453]There's an inherent difference between organizational terrorism like 9/11 and loners who are likely not quite all there in the head like McVeigh. There's no meaningful comparison beyond the fact that they both kill people. (along with all murders)[/QUOTE] The "meaningful comparison" is that they are both committing terrorist attacks. I am not comparing the logistical or operational effectiveness of vast terrorist networks to lone gunmen or isolated groups. I am merely pointing out that domestic terrorism occurs on a semi-regular basis. I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue about right now? I haven't said anything that isn't true or tried to make any point beyond the simple statement that domestic terrorism can't be ruled out until we have more information. [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;49201391]Because it doesn't fit the agenda.[/QUOTE] lol what fucking agenda?

[QUOTE=Govna;49201227]This is the most absurd bullshit I have read on Facepunch quite possibly ever. The Branch Davidians were a lunatic Christian cult formed out of the Seventh-Day Adventists that practiced everything from child marriages to weird sex rituals (including child sexual abuse and statutory rape) run by a man (Howell, later Koresh) who forced male members to observe celibacy while he fucked their wives and daughters, was building a fringe militia to act as an "Army of God" for the end times, horded firearms and explosives (powder and grenade casings)... [url=http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all]it was a miserable cult that needed to be busted by law enforcement one way or another[/url], and if you think otherwise, I question your sanity and intelligence on the matter. There is no reason why any human being should sympathize with the Branch Davidians or especially David Koresh; what they were doing was wrong, especially what they were doing to innocent children. Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a white supremacist, attended Aryan Nations rallies, illegally modified and sold weapons, and refused to help the government infiltrate the Aryan Nations after they busted him for his firearms activities. He was not defending himself lol, he thought he could fight his way out of his situation, kept his wife and kids with him with no regard for their safety, and got them and himself fucked in the face in the end. Idealizing McVeigh as a "fallen hero" is ridiculous, and it shows how ridiculous you are dude. He was a paranoid right-wing would-be revolutionary who thought socialism and the United Nations were taking over America, thought taxes were an infringement of the American government against its citizens (they're not; they're how we pay for basically everything public and decent), was the worst kind of gun nut and overzealously engrossed himself in gun culture (seeing anything that might restrict open gun rights as government tyranny; the NRA wasn't even good enough for him lol), thought nuclear war might devastate the country at any moment (hence why he ran to Arizona)... he was a neurotic idiot who wanted to feel important before he ever went to the Gulf War, and he killed a shitton of innocent people for no reason at all other than to satiate this need to find unwarranted self-importance.[/QUOTE] I agree completely but you can't deny that the ATF shot first without any legal investigation outside of (unreliable) reports of automatic gunfire (which are typically not or barely considered in a court of law). you're preaching to the choir here. whether you're for or against what they were doing, you can't deny that the government's handling of the situation was just flat out wrong. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ridge;49201328]PP doesn't talk people down from that. If anything, he'd be angry that she got an abortion there.[/QUOTE] your experience completely contradicts mine.

[QUOTE=Govna;49201227]This is the most absurd bullshit I have read on Facepunch quite possibly ever. The Branch Davidians were a lunatic Christian cult formed out of the Seventh-Day Adventists that practiced everything from child marriages to weird sex rituals (including child sexual abuse and statutory rape) run by a man (Howell, later Koresh) who forced male members to observe celibacy while he fucked their wives and daughters, was building a fringe militia to act as an "Army of God" for the end times, horded firearms and explosives (powder and grenade casings)... [url=http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all]it was a miserable cult that needed to be busted by law enforcement one way or another[/url], and if you think otherwise, I question your sanity and intelligence on the matter. There is no reason why any human being should sympathize with the Branch Davidians or especially David Koresh; what they were doing was wrong, especially what they were doing to innocent children.[/quote] Oh boy, where to start? First off, all though the weapon charges are true, their was numerous cases and instances in which David Koresh himself could have been arrested while in Waco, Texas. The entire Waco Siege was nothing more then the ATF, trying to showoff that it's actually useful for something other then a bureaucratic whorehouse of constant incompetence. Whatcha know? Completely backfired. Seriously, answer me this: Why did the ATF need to bring a 80 vehicle convoy to take on a group of people? Why did they need to commit to a raid? Why couldn't the situation have been resolved with a simple, knock on the door, and ask a few questions? Or as I mentioned earlier, simply arresting Koresh, and bringing the Branch-Davidans out in a more peaceful manner of holding their leader down and committing to pulling the rest of the group out. Then you bring in the National Guard... Why? What was the purpose of already agitating a bad situation by trying to show off military equipment. We are talking about a group which had already been noted for being terrified of the US government coming down on them, and then some incompetent fuck thought it would be a good idea to bring in tanks. Tanks! Oh and don't even get me started with the FBI and their idea of causing more distress with the Branch Davidians by blaring "light and noise" psyops through loudspeakers in the hopes of causing them to become restless. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iWqfUSKT0c[/media] Then we step into the perspective that for numerous periods of time, the actual useful hostage interrogation units were managing the situation well enough to convince Koresh to surrender, but Koresh backed out of the offer after the ATF/FBI groups in the area decided the best idea was to take potshots with sniper rifles. Good going, guys! [QUOTE=Govna;49201227]Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a white supremacist, attended Aryan Nations rallies, illegally modified and sold weapons, and refused to help the government infiltrate the Aryan Nations after they busted him for his firearms activities. He was not defending himself lol, he thought he could fight his way out of his situation, kept his wife and kids with him with no regard for their safety, and got them and himself fucked in the face in the end.[/quote] Another horrid situation thanks to the retards at the ATF! Fun story - Did you know that the reason Randy Weaver refused to stand down was because the ATF surrounded his building [I]without his knowledge[/I] and killed his son, his son's friend, and their pet dogs while they were just screwing around in the woods? Tell me, how would you respond to this? Your son, his friend, and your family pets are murdered in cold blood without you knowing as to why. In my shoes, I'd be fucking pissed and rightfully so. It doesn't matter if the guy was involved with the Aryan Nation, cause honestly who gives a shit? Also you wanna know the oh-so dangerous weapon Weaver was being threatened with for selling? A sawn-off. Yup. Oh and he didn't even make the sawn-off shotgun by the by. The weapon was shortened by the FBI informant in order to gain leverage against Randy Weaver, so he would become an informant on the Aryan Nation, whom of which he was only mildly involved with in terms of firearm repair, as he was a gunsmith. So yeah. FBI/ATF decides to shoot and kill a group of innocent people, such as Randy Weaver's son, wife, his pets, and the son's friend... Over what again? Oh... A missed court date. Jesus, I really should be careful with missing a hearing, I might get shot for simply owning a rifle! Seriously, and people wonder why so many folks hate the ATF and FBI.

[QUOTE=Govna;49201227]Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a white supremacist, attended Aryan Nations rallies, illegally modified and sold weapons, and refused to help the government infiltrate the Aryan Nations after they busted him for his firearms activities. He was not defending himself lol, he thought he could fight his way out of his situation, kept his wife and kids with him with no regard for their safety, and got them and himself fucked in the face in the end.[/QUOTE] Yeah dude that guy's family deserved to die because of his political beliefs and because he sold a tiny shotgun the government gave to him.

[editline]28th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49203238]Oh boy, where to start? First off, all though the weapon charges are true, their was numerous cases and instances in which David Koresh himself could have been arrested while in Waco, Texas. The entire Waco Siege was nothing more then the ATF, trying to showoff that it's actually useful for something other then a bureaucratic whorehouse of constant incompetence. Whatcha know? Completely backfired. Seriously, answer me this: Why did the ATF need to bring a 80 vehicle convoy to take on a group of people? Why did they need to commit to a raid? Why couldn't the situation have been resolved with a simple, knock on the door, and ask a few questions? Or as I mentioned earlier, simply arresting Koresh, and bringing the Branch-Davidans out in a more peaceful manner of holding their leader down and committing to pulling the rest of the group out. Then you bring in the National Guard... Why? What was the purpose of already agitating a bad situation by trying to show off military equipment. We are talking about a group which had already been noted for being terrified of the US government coming down on them, and then some incompetent fuck thought it would be a good idea to bring in tanks. Tanks! Oh and don't even get me started with the FBI and their idea of causing more distress with the Branch Davidians by blaring "light and noise" psyops through loudspeakers in the hopes of causing them to become restless. Then we step into the perspective that for numerous periods of time, the actual useful hostage interrogation units were managing the situation well enough to convince Koresh to surrender, but Koresh backed out of the offer after the ATF/FBI groups in the area decided the best idea was to take potshots with sniper rifles. Good going, guys! Another horrid situation thanks to the retards at the ATF! Fun story - Did you know that the reason Randy Weaver refused to stand down was because the ATF surrounded his building [I]without his knowledge[/I] and killed his son, his son's friend, and their pet dogs while they were just screwing around in the woods? Tell me, how would you respond to this? Your son, his friend, and your family pets are murdered in cold blood without you knowing as to why. In my shoes, I'd be fucking pissed and rightfully so. It doesn't matter if the guy was involved with the Aryan Nation, cause honestly who gives a shit? Also you wanna know the oh-so dangerous weapon Weaver was being threatened with for selling? A sawn-off. Yup. Oh and he didn't even make the sawn-off shotgun by the by. The weapon was shortened by the FBI informant in order to gain leverage against Randy Weaver, so he would become an informant on the Aryan Nation, whom of which he was only mildly involved with in terms of firearm repair, as he was a gunsmith. So yeah. FBI/ATF decides to shoot and kill a group of innocent people, such as Randy Weaver's son, wife, his pets, and the son's friend... Over what again? Oh... A missed court date. Jesus, I really should be careful with missing a hearing, I might get shot for simply owning a rifle! Seriously, and people wonder why so many folks hate the ATF and FBI.[/QUOTE] While the ATF and their actions during Waco are abysmal. It was pretty much required. They got I think all the kids out except those who stayed with koresh. Im not agreeing with how Waco went down, but David Koresh was fucked, the whole church was fucked, and was stockpiling an absurd amount of weapons/ammo. They were getting shot at and blown up just trying to enter the building. They also gave everyone plenty of time to just get out, this is actually how a lot of people got out and survived during the siege. They had Koresh on the phone for so long multiple times. I think you might be missing some key information about the Waco Siege and painting the entire picture of it with your rightful hate of the ATF. I mean no one should disagree the ATF is fucking garbage, but Waco was a really fucked up situation with law enforcement constantly getting shot at from god knows where from inside the house, which was also booby trapped everywhere. They also tried knocking on the door, which is where the famous "first shot" comes from iirc(no one knows who shot first). They tried multiple times. A lot of shit lead to the Waco siege and David Koresh did nothing but make everything worse.

Way to derail a thread. Has a motive been revealed yet?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49203268][editline]28th November 2015[/editline] While the ATF and their actions during Waco are abysmal. It was pretty much required. They got I think all the kids out except those who stayed with koresh. Im not agreeing with how Waco went down, but David Koresh was fucked, the whole church was fucked, and was stockpiling an absurd amount of weapons/ammo.[/quote] Why was it required? It was entrapment. They sent him illegal guns and then used that as a justification to raid the place. [quote]They were getting shot at and blown up just trying to enter the building. They also gave everyone plenty of time to just get out, this is actually how a lot of people got out and survived during the siege. They had Koresh on the phone for so long multiple times.[/quote] Hell yeah, I'd shoot at people trying to break into my home, too. Especially when they light the place on fire and drive APCs through the walls. [quote]I think you might be missing some key information about the Waco Siege and painting the entire picture of it with your rightful hate of the ATF. I mean no one should disagree the ATF is fucking garbage, but Waco was a really fucked up situation with law enforcement constantly getting shot at from god knows where from inside the house, which was also booby trapped everywhere. They also tried knocking on the door, which is where the famous "first shot" comes from iirc(no one knows who shot first). They tried multiple times. A lot of shit lead to the Waco siege and David Koresh did nothing but make everything worse.[/QUOTE] The ATF instigated the justification for the raid, they instigated the shooting, and their snipers murdered civilians fleeing a structure they set on fire. And then the Attorney General had the balls to say it was the right thing to do.

My thought goes out to the area, hopefully the situation is quickly defused.

According to eye witnesses he started shooting in the parking lot of the bank and then ended up in PP. He's also registered as a female on his driver's license and registered as a female to vote. What a fucking strange event.

He's also a member of the Anti-Fascist Party.

What I don't understand is, if he was targeting Planned Parenthood, how the hell did cops arrive and engage him before he even shot anyone there? PP says none of the 15 people in the office were injured.