China on course to have the world's largest Christian congregation in 15 years - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44588426]Since when? He was pretty vocal about his atheism. [url]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Contemporary_witnesses[/url] It wasn't like it was an uncommon view to hold at the time either. A lot of atheists started popping up in late 19th and early 20th century Russia.[/QUOTE] Well seeing as how you needed to be atheist to hold any sort of power in the party it would make sense he would denounce god.

[QUOTE=toaster468;44588476]Well seeing as how you needed to be atheist to hold any sort of power in the party it would make sense he would denounce god.[/QUOTE] But he held these views before he even entered the party.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44588608]But he held these views before he even entered the party.[/QUOTE] The quote was taken from a book written by someone in the communist party so I am not sure if that is good evidence.

[QUOTE=toaster468;44588693]The quote was taken from a book written by someone in the communist party so I am not sure if that is good evidence.[/QUOTE] If he was religious, he can't have been very religious, considering that he was kicked out of the seminary for his views and he joined an explicitly anti-theist party. [editline]19th April 2014[/editline] He has certainly lost his faith by the time his wife committed suicide.

So then they have Santa Claus in China too, right? How can you have Christmas without Santa Claus? If you're Christian, how you can you not celebrate Christmas? Do they want to make baby Jesus cry?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44588710]If he was religious, he can't have been very religious, considering that he was kicked out of the seminary for his views and he joined an explicitly anti-theist party.[/QUOTE] [quote]Although his performance had been good, he was expelled in 1899 after missing his final exams. The seminary's records also suggest that he was unable to pay his tuition fees.[/quote] [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Early_life[/URL] He wasn't kicked out for his views. And he joined a revolutionary group after he saw that there was a stronger side in the fight for power within the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (The Bolsheviks had the most power and eventually beat the Mensheviks). So the point could be made that he joined the stronger side and not necessarily the side that he agreed with. EDIT: It is questionable whether his wife committed suicide.

I'm guessing at Christmas time they incorporate Zao Jun, the Chinese kitchen god, into the mix. Speaking of which, Zao Jun does seem to have similar characteristics to the "helper of Santa" archetype, in that his yearly reports (that are submitted before Chinese New Year) to the Jade Emperor determine whether a household is punished or rewarded.

I hope this allows for more religious unity and more secularism within China rather than state denial of religion that oppresses everyone.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;44588849]I hope this allows for more religious unity and more secularism within China rather than state denial of religion that oppresses everyone.[/QUOTE] Secularism doesn't go well with religion

[QUOTE=toaster468;44588476]Well seeing as how you needed to be atheist to hold any sort of power in the party it would make sense he would denounce god.[/QUOTE] So even though all evidence says he was an atheist, you're saying he's not simply because it would have been a good disguise? People who believe in God don't go around saying they don't, promoting atheism, and closing Churches. See: USA

[QUOTE=Rubs10;44589611]So even though all evidence says he was an atheist, you're saying he's not simply because it would have been a good disguise? People who believe in God don't go around saying they don't, promoting atheism, and closing Churches. See: USA[/QUOTE] Maybe that is because the US doesn't require that you renounce your belief to be a part of the ruling class?? And yes, seeing as how he was not communist it is pretty easy to also make up that he was atheist too. And by that I mean not stick to the ideals that Lenin tried to implement. Stalin wasn't a true believer, he was a leader and he would have come to power (or at least tried) in any system which allowed him the possibility. Also you and I both know that Soviet Russia and the USA aren't comparable in this aspect so stop being so dense.

[QUOTE=J!NX;44588440]dumb douche thinks the world can just be sunshine an rainbows and that atheists can't do bad either, but, they can, and have.[/QUOTE] See, make one little change to the statement, and you sum up China's situation up until this point. The [I]officially atheist[/I] Communist Party of China has been shitty and ignored basic human rights, so it is extremely ignorant to say that the situation over there couldn't get even a tiny bit better if the people became more religious. (Don't forget, most religions have some established social justice doctrines, while atheism as a whole does not)

[QUOTE=slayer64;44589828]See, make one little change to the statement, and you sum up China's situation up until this point. The [I]officially atheist[/I] Communist Party of China has been shitty and ignored basic human rights, so it is extremely ignorant to say that the situation over there couldn't get even a tiny bit better if the people became more religious. (Don't forget, most religions have some established social justice doctrines, while atheism as a whole does not)[/QUOTE] Maybe that's because Atheism is not a religion?, the fact that they're atheist is completely irrelevant

[QUOTE=slayer64;44589828]See, make one little change to the statement, and you sum up China's situation up until this point. The [I]officially atheist[/I] Communist Party of China has been shitty and ignored basic human rights, so it is extremely ignorant to say that the situation over there couldn't get even a tiny bit better if the people became more religious. (Don't forget, most religions have some established social justice doctrines, while atheism as a whole does not)[/QUOTE] I never said only Christians have done bad, but the issue isn't purely religion or non religion. And besides that, some of the worst shit that's ever happened ever (Including genocide), was done by Christians, Catholics, whatever you wish to call them. I don't see where their established social doctrines were when that happened. Religion and non religion has nothing to do with it. Atheists can do that as well, I'm not saying Christians are evil, but, they are no better either, if at time, worse. and just because atheists don't have established social justice doctrines, doesn't mean they don't have morals. Of course, yeah, if people all could cooperate shit would go better, but Christianity doesn't stop it from being a shitty place, hell, for all we know it could make it far far worse. On the other hand, having similar ideas will help, but is that [I]really [/I]what will fix China?

[QUOTE=Shreddinger;44588986]Secularism doesn't go well with religion[/QUOTE] Actually, Secularism simply means keeping religion and government separate. Contrary to popular FP belief, Secularism does not mean total absence of religion. China is about as non-secular as Iran, just on the other end of the spectrum. [editline]19th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;44589866]Hey, you're that guy who always defends religious ignorance with terrible arguments. Glad to see you're still here.[/QUOTE] There's way more anti-religious ignorance and logical fallacies here than religious. Everyone just seems happy to ignore it and throw a shit fit when anyone points it out.

[QUOTE=slayer64;44589828]See, make one little change to the statement, and you sum up China's situation up until this point. The [I]officially atheist[/I] Communist Party of China has been shitty and ignored basic human rights, so it is extremely ignorant to say that the situation over there couldn't get even a tiny bit better if the people became more religious. (Don't forget, most religions have some established social justice doctrines, while atheism as a whole does not)[/QUOTE]Religion is controlled or suppressed by communist countries not because they're atheists, but because they want people to hold loyalty only to the state. Having a loyalty to a deity conflicts with that, as would e.g. being a part of an ethnic or other group that want to be separate, having a family member or members that go against the party, and so on. It's not because these autocratic countries are run by some sort of fedora-tipping twatrackets as you imagine, it's because they're run by power-hungry twatrackets.

good, they can keep it.

i'm cool with that if it teaches them some good things about morals etc. if it makes them feel like better people then why not. religion has after all been a none thing since china became communist

[QUOTE=slayer64;44589882]Actually, Secularism simply means keeping religion and government separate. Contrary to popular FP belief, Secularism does not mean total absence of religion. China is about as non-secular as Iran, just on the other end of the spectrum. [editline]19th April 2014[/editline] There's way more anti-religious ignorance and logical fallacies here than religious. Everyone just seems happy to ignore it and throw a shit fit when anyone points it out.[/QUOTE] oh you mean like all of the genocides and murders Christians have caused because of Jezus Christ just as a note, I'm 100% OK with religion, it can be EXTREMELY beneficial even! but Religious ignorance is way more dangerous than ignorance and atheism

[QUOTE=J!NX;44590013]oh you mean like all of the genocides and murders Christians have caused because of Jezus Christ just as a note, I'm 100% OK with religion, it can be EXTREMELY beneficial even! but Religious ignorance is way more dangerous than ignorance and atheism[/QUOTE] atheism is dangerous?

[QUOTE=toaster468;44589694]Maybe that is because the US doesn't require that you renounce your belief to be a part of the ruling class?? And yes, seeing as how he was not communist it is pretty easy to also make up that he was atheist too. And by that I mean not stick to the ideals that Lenin tried to implement. Stalin wasn't a true believer, he was a leader and he would have come to power (or at least tried) in any system which allowed him the possibility. Also you and I both know that Soviet Russia and the USA aren't comparable in this aspect so stop being so dense.[/QUOTE] Still waiting on that evidence that goes against all the evidence saying he was atheist.

[QUOTE=Shreddinger;44590018]atheism is dangerous?[/QUOTE] I literally just said religious ignorance is worse religion without being ignorant is very very helpful, but when ignorant people follow it, it's not a good thing

[QUOTE=J!NX;44590032]I literally just said religious ignorance is worse religion without being ignorant is very very helpful, but when ignorant people follow it, it's not a good thing[/QUOTE] It's not worse?, but how is it bad in any way? :v:

[QUOTE=smfE;44589995]i'm cool with that if it teaches them some good things about morals etc. if it makes them feel like better people then why not. religion has after all been a none thing since china became communist[/QUOTE] Religion doesn't teach morals, your parents do.

[QUOTE=toaster468;44590045]Religion doesn't teach morals, your parents do.[/QUOTE] Well to be fair some morals can be taught from the bible, but there a much much better alternatives that can be used. I know what you meant though

Why is Christianity still a thing? I really do not get it.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;44590069]Who usually teaches children the bible/brings them to church?[/QUOTE] I know he meant, the bible itself doesn't teach the morals, parents do. Just that the morals have to come from somewhere. I'm not saying that you can't be moral without religion, I'm just saying that they always have to use a medium to tech something (bible, shakespeare etc.) so really it's kind of a combined effort.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;44590120]The bible probably got it from standards already in place needed to have a working human society, though. People aren't born into this world wanting to murder and destroy until told otherwise.[/QUOTE] Of course, I'm not disputing that.

[QUOTE=cyanidem;44588318]Mankind: 1 Step forward, 2 steps back.[/QUOTE] Sure, because not believing in Jesus is going to make humans be more peaceful and not declare war on each other. [QUOTE]Religion is controlled or suppressed by communist countries not because they're atheists, but because they want people to hold loyalty only to the state.[/QUOTE] Or...maybe because they believe atheism is the only way to go religion being a social construction by the uppermost classes in order to perpetuate the economic system? [QUOTE] but I believe we'd be in at least the same place morally (or better) if we never had religion.[/QUOTE] How? [QUOTE]atheism is dangerous? [/QUOTE] Lol, just as the religious ignorant guy can say "Deus Vult! Take this you heathen!" the atheist can say "Well, since there is no god....we're our own maker...I am the most powerful in this situation...and I don't receive any punishment for doing this...." And just as the religious ignorant guy can say "It's all cool, we're all sons of God" the atheist can say "It's all cool, we're all humans". There is a difference between the last two? well, not in my opinion. One is putting an extreme value on something via something that hasn't been proved to exist and the other guy is just placing humans above all (see peter singer for more info regarding this last one)

Can you imagine how much shit the US would flip if there was a Chinese pope?