• May day, Anti-Capitalist protest clash with police force in Montreal. Canada
    143 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47648366]why does everyone think the protest is for communism? it's just anti capitalism general [/QUOTE] [t]https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/11157378_10153380464127652_6043609137865551462_o.jpg[/t] Did you even look at the images posted in the op?
of course some people in a general anti capitalism protest will be pro communism [editline]3rd May 2015[/editline] doesn't mean that's what the protest or even the majority of the participants of the protest believe in
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47648485]if I say there is an invisible teapot orbiting the planet should i be the one to explain why i think that, or should you explain why you think the opposite?[/QUOTE] I'm assuming you don't have any answer, then.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47648530]I'm assuming you don't have any answer, then.[/QUOTE] how the hell can i prove that negative, i'm asking why he thinks everyone wants everything
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47648538]how the hell can i prove that negative, i'm asking why he thinks everyone wants everything[/QUOTE] Well see, I believe him. And I don't believe you. Which is why I'm asking you and not him.
[url]https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof[/url] [editline]3rd May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47648551]Well see, I believe him. And I don't believe you. Which is why I'm asking you and not him.[/QUOTE] why do you believe him then? [editline]3rd May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;47648349]I don't understand... What do they think is wrong with Canada, exactly? In what would a communist revolution benefit Canada? Maybe i shouldn't try to find logic in a communist's head, but it makes me legitimately curious.[/QUOTE] Interestingly, canada is one of the few places that communism could work the best (theoretically), because of all of it's resources
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47648538]how the hell can i prove that negative, i'm asking why he thinks everyone wants everything[/QUOTE] I don't think you even know what you're arguing for. To be post scarcity means that all resources aren't at risk of running out. If everyone is to be equal, which is what communism ultimately wants, then you need to give everyone the same level of stuff. You need enough for everyone to be happy and not be left wanting. [editline]2nd May 2015[/editline] You're claiming it's not impossible to reach post scarcity. Both arguments need something behind them but his argument that if is impossible has the natural scarcity of resources as a pillar. You have none Sirius
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47648584]I don't think you even know what you're arguing for. To be post scarcity means that all resources aren't at risk of running out. If everyone is to be equal, which is what communism ultimately wants, then you need to give everyone the same level of stuff. You need enough for everyone to be happy and not be left wanting.[/QUOTE] yes, and i don't see how that's impossible, especially considering the way technology is heading
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47648599]yes, and i don't see how that's impossible, especially considering the way technology is heading[/QUOTE] And what way is that? You can see into the future?
I really don't think the possibility of a post-scarcity society can be proven possible without some VERY major studies, but rather proven impossible. so far all i've heard for proof of impossibility is "nope" [editline]3rd May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47648605]And what way is that? You can see into the future?[/QUOTE] no, but presently more and more jobs are being automated, sustainable energy and construction are growing, and according to UN estimates, world population will plateau at 9.2 billion by 2050
[QUOTE=Levithan;47648086]Poorly/un regulated capitalism has and will do a lot of goddamnevil things, like paying poor people pennies to work in sweatshops and shit.[/QUOTE] Good thing regulated capitalism works then.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47648027]As they wave their flags mass produced in factories, probably by 5 year old Chinese children in a communist(ish) country. Most anti-capitalists seem to just want to be contrarians who often indulge in fruits of capitalism more than the rest (yes, I'm talking to you, the girl sitting in Starbucks on her iPhone yelling "Fuck the government" at the top of her lungs).[/QUOTE] What do you suggest they do? Make everything on their own without money? That's pretty much impossible nowadays. You have to have at least some money to get anywhere in the modern world. Where are they gonna get the flags and the banners and such? Just make them? Okay, but you need money for the supplies. The only way they could possibly get their hands on anything needed for the protest is with money. They could start farming cotton for cloth and trees for paper but it would be impossible to do that efficiently with so few people. I'm so sick of this argument. Please propose an alternative to using money in modern society. You need it for food (don't say that they could just farm it, you need money to do that), clothes, shelter, fucking everything. They have simply no choice but to "indulge" in capitalism. And fuck off with the straw men. Also China is hardly even communist(ish). Not even Soviet Russia was communist(ish). Communism implies that the society becomes stateless, which is something that the leaders of those nations clearly refused to do. We could have had an actually communist society by now if it weren't for greed and corruption.
[QUOTE=SoaringScout;47648786]We could have had an actually communist society by now if it weren't for greed and corruption.[/QUOTE] The laws of nature prevent communism. Not even greed and corruption, but by the simple fact that it's literally impossible for a complex society to function without a state. States naturally form when you get enough people together. Market economies likewise, once the internal contradictions of the command/communist economy take action.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47648145]There's a reason we've only even seen communism as 'terribly instituted' and that's because it doesn't work.[/QUOTE] the reason that communism doesn't work is the same reason that various other economic and political systems have their shortcomings: people. whether it be central planners, civil servants, or corporate chairmen, they're all people, all fundamentally irrational in ways that are essentially universal to all human beings. this irrationality is one of the reasons that pluralistic democracy and mixed economy have been so successful compared to other systems: diversity in thought + decision making in aggregate + (more or less) equal representation and protection of groups and individuals = less chances for human error to ruin everything.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47648110]But the issue you state is specific to America, not to Capitalism. Most countries have a mixed economy, not only capitalism (as most seem to believe).[/QUOTE] Its very much a problem of all western countries, look at Britain or Australia they're both following the same elitist attitudes against the rich
[QUOTE=SoaringScout;47648786]What do you suggest they do? Make everything on their own without money? That's pretty much impossible nowadays. You have to have at least some money to get anywhere in the modern world. Where are they gonna get the flags and the banners and such? Just make them? Okay, but you need money for the supplies. The only way they could possibly get their hands on anything needed for the protest is with money. They could start farming cotton for cloth and trees for paper but it would be impossible to do that efficiently with so few people. I'm so sick of this argument. Please propose an alternative to using money in modern society. You need it for food (don't say that they could just farm it, you need money to do that), clothes, shelter, fucking everything. They have simply no choice but to "indulge" in capitalism. And fuck off with the straw men. Also China is hardly even communist(ish). Not even Soviet Russia was communist(ish). Communism implies that the society becomes stateless, which is something that the leaders of those nations clearly refused to do. We could have had an actually communist society by now if it weren't for greed and corruption.[/QUOTE] Dude, when peple say communism, they are OBVIOUSLY refering to a state planned economy. The correct, as-per-the-marixst-dictionary use of Communism is almost not used. No society, can become, stateless or without a central authority. Fuck off Bakunin. Fuck off Marx. Fuck off Nozick (to some degree) and Fuck off Rothbard. EDIT: Argghh, but all this people using words in ways they shouldn't be using drives mad. I do understand. When I see some guys stating the dichotomy "Capitalism vs mixed economy" I am like: What the fuck dude, they are not mutually exclusive. What you surely meant was "Laissez-Faire/No regulations and interventions vs Mixed economy".
[QUOTE=Impact1986;47648477]I am pro-capitalism, too,[B] but without regulation, as in anti-trust laws, it will be used to hurt most people, enslaving them into a vicious circle of debt. [/B]The only winners of this are a few people who end up controlling everything as money equals power. One thing that was the result of these laws was the emergence of the middle class, where before you had the small but wealthy upperclass deciding what course the economy and therefore the country itself is heading to while the working class was forced to work in abysmal condition for the lowest pay. With the middle class the industries changed to cater to the consumerism. Henry Ford invented affordable cars, while also paying his workers a good wage and introducing the standard 40 hour workweek. People now had money and time to reinvest into things they wanted to have, like a car, kitchen appliances, etc...[/QUOTE] i guess you're another one of those guys that never picked a damn history book, capitalism without regulation has ALWAYS fucked everyone but the rich, how someone can be so uneducated i'll never know, fuck, the reason communism became so popular in the first place is because of how much the worker kept getting fucked, repeatedly. i said it before, when this whole neo-liberalism/free trade/no rules starts to affect the european and american middle-class REALLY badly, you guys are gonna change your mind pretty quickly. also wtf does this even mean, how does anti-trust laws force people into debt, you want to have megacorporations that can't be challenged? and again, like i said it before, facepunchers are mostly sheltered middle-class people who don't know how the world works, only way you can defend something like this.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47648145]There's a reason we've only even seen communism as 'terribly instituted' and that's because it doesn't work.[/QUOTE] Communism is a stateless system though, if there is a government, it is not Communist. It's comparable to anarchism more than anything The reason why the political parties of the USSR and China called themselves Communist is they believed that they were in the transition stage where they were preparing the nation for the state to wither away. If you asked a Soviet official at the height of the USSR if you lived in a communist system he would likely reply [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years]that they were working on it[/url] and soon comrade, soon. The USSR could be described as broadly Socialist tho China is just a corrupt shithole (and full of rudimentary free markets anyway) that one would struggle to even call socialist
[QUOTE=Antdawg;47648066]Haha wtf Why would you proudly be holding a banner with the face of Mao on it? Have those people ever taken a lesson in history? Who would look at Mao and think 'yeah he was a good communist'?[/QUOTE] If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
[QUOTE=Shibbey;47650190]China is just a corrupt shithole (and full of rudimentary free markets anyway) that one would struggle to even call socialist[/QUOTE] Say what you like about China, but it's leapt forwards light years towards a better society since 1979.
[QUOTE=Deng;47650959]Say what you like about China, but it's leapt forwards light years towards a better society since 1979.[/QUOTE] With a overcrowded population paid pennies to works in very dangerous industry in the hope to get enough money to sustain their families? Sometime, China looks like the capitalist world of 1800-1900. Super low salary, super high risk etc. The industry want chinese to works to save money and make profit. That break our economy. They have improved. that's for sure. but they are far from a good societies as long as they don't respect individual rights. ( but you know. that might anger the big corporation that exploit the Chinese workers )
There are issues with capitalism that are worth discussing, not fighting over, these people are silly.
[QUOTE=Deng;47650959]Say what you like about China, but it's leapt forwards light years towards a better society since 1979.[/QUOTE] If you live in one of the hugearse cities sure Anywhere else? Ehhhhhh
[QUOTE=Black;47651077]There are issues with capitalism that are worth discussing, not fighting over, these people are silly.[/QUOTE] Discussing capitalism isn't going to go very far considering how the wealthy have their ways of preventing as many challenges towards capitalism as possible. The less capitalist a society becomes, the less power they have.
[QUOTE=Black;47651077]There are issues with capitalism that are worth discussing, not fighting over, these people are silly.[/QUOTE] The government don't want to discuss about it. So does the powerful companies
[QUOTE=pac0master;47651053]With a overcrowded population paid pennies to works in very dangerous industry in the hope to get enough money to sustain their families? Sometime, China looks like the capitalist world of 1800-1900. Super low salary, super high risk etc.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China[/url] [quote]The poverty rate in the world's most populous country fell by nearly three-quarters in the last six years, from 26% in 2007 to 7% by 2012, according to a different measure produced by Gallup.[4][/quote] [img]http://i.gyazo.com/7d0bfd520a4b274041f0ca75946502a1.png[/img] [img]http://i.gyazo.com/6fe53fe9c0e3760550a983ae2552277a.png[/img] [img]http://www.unicef.cn/en/uploadfile/2013/0321/20130321015200678.jpg[/img] What do you mean overcrowded btw? The Chinese population growth has flatlined. What do you mean paid pennies to work in dangerous industries? Their wages have grown by something like a factor of 30 since 1979. Although dangerous, it's getting safer to work, even in the most dangerous industries: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China#By_year[/url] [img]http://i.gyazo.com/30f0c1be180a18dce789fb49339ec28b.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Deng;47651146]*Stats*[/QUOTE] I am not saying that they never improved or what ever. I say that their standard of living is still way bellow the Western countries They have a very good economy due to the cheap labour. if they were to improve on that, they would shot themselves in the foot and jump in the coffin Because most companies would start moving their industries elsewhere. The problem is the stupid goal of always making more profit than the last year which bright companies to close their industries in their countries and use the cheap labour elsewhere. That shit breaks the economy as people lose their job, can't afford anything then end up paying less taxes which end up making less money to the government to pay for services and debts.
[QUOTE=pac0master;47651182]I am not saying that they never improved or what ever. I say that their standard of living is still way bellow the Western countries[/QUOTE] Well no shit sherlock, they started out well behind the Western countries. And they are catching up still rather rapidly, with capitalism as one of the things which is helping them to achieve that. The achievements they have made in the past 30 years are in no way to be dismissed. [quote] if they were to improve on that, they would shot themselves in the foot and jump in the coffin Because most companies would start moving their industries elsewhere.[/quote] They are improving on it right now, and companies are moving industries elsewhere (to Vietnam for instance). Why is China still growing you may ask? Well, it's moved into new industries and services, aided by the increasing human capital and skill base. Wages are still rapidly growing too.
[QUOTE=Deng;47651188]The achievements they have made in the past 30 years are in no way to be dismissed.[/QUOTE] I am not dismissing it. But I think they won't improve much as time goes due to their economy is based on cheap labour. so if they were to improve the salary or make jobs safer, it would break their economy. I kind of explained that in my comment above [quote] They are improving on it right now, and companies are moving industries elsewhere (to Vietnam for instance). Why is China still growing you may ask? Well, it's moved into new industries and services, aided by the increasing human capital and skill base. Wages are still rapidly growing too.[/QUOTE] Sure. skilled works and stuff but they can't make a quick transition of a billion people in the lower class with almost no education. these people are almost doomed to work in bad regulated industries China is Rich. Probably richer than most countries. Their economy is booming. Yet a shit ton of people starve there. many places are still shitholes Just look at the pollution. They finally woke up and found out that the smog and the polluted rivers were a bad thing.
[QUOTE=pac0master;47651204]I am not dismissing it. But I think they won't improve much as time goes due to their economy is based on cheap labour. so if they were to improve the salary or make jobs safer, it would break their economy. I kind of explained that in my comment above[/QUOTE] Except this isn't happening. China is transitioning into a service economy right now, wages are still growing, job safety is becoming more important, environmental regulations are slowly coming in, and the economy is still expanding.
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