Hyperloop Transportation Technologies just filed for a building permit in California. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Morgen;49586659]Hyperloop has a lot of potential. Of course at first it's probably going to cost a lot and have teething issues, it's a whole new form of transport. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] Maglev is also very expensive. Musk estimated Hyperloop could only cost $11.5 million per mile for a two way system.[/QUOTE] Hyperloops costs are pretty heavily understated. maglev is of course the big future research one, but for now high speed rail is a very admirable investment. indeed, high speed rail is already much more energy efficient than hyperloop, not to mention cheaper and with higher passenger capacities

If you created a maglev system, could it later be retrofitted for a hypertube as they both function on the basis of "mag lev" technology?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49586750]If you created a maglev system, could it later be retrofitted for a hypertube as they both function on the basis of "mag lev" technology?[/QUOTE] you could probably (at considerable expense) tear out all of the old infrastructure and refit it with the new. i suppose the biggest disadvantage is that its relatively easy to upgrade to high speed rail, and it'll do like nine tenths of what people are demanding at like a tenth of the cost of other speculative projects. until the time comes that hyperloop becomes feasible (if it ever even will be, considering the dodgy physics), then it's better to stand upon the shoulders of giants than it is to attempt reinventing everything from the ground up

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49586704]Hyperloops costs are pretty heavily understated. maglev is of course the big future research one, but for now high speed rail is a very admirable investment. indeed, high speed rail is already much more energy efficient than hyperloop, not to mention cheaper and with higher passenger capacities[/QUOTE] How do you know the costs are heavily understated? Maybe if we built it right now then sure it would be since we haven't even built a test track yet. Regular high speed trains don't really compare to Hyperloop, California's high speed rail system will get you between LA and San Francisco in an estimated 2 hours and 40 mins. Hyperloop could do it in 35 mins. With the hyperloop you could commute to work in LA if you lived in San Francisco, with a regular high speed train that's simply not realistic. If we go by what the Federal Railroad Administration said for the costs of Maglev then building that track would cost $18 - $36 billion vs $4 billion for the Hyperloop.

[QUOTE=Morgen;49586801]How do you know the costs are heavily understated? Maybe if we built it right now then sure it would be since we haven't even built a test track yet. Regular high speed trains don't really compare to Hyperloop, California's high speed rail system will get you between LA and San Francisco in an estimated 2 hours and 40 mins. Hyperloop could do it in 35 mins. With the hyperloop you could commute to work in LA if you lived in San Francisco, with a regular high speed train that's simply not realistic.[/quote] except hyperloop wouldn't be able to handle the same capacity - which is the point of mass transit. you are increasing the passengers per hour you would need four hyperloop lines in order to even have the same passenger capacity as a typical high-speed rail, and that's being generous to the hyperloop. there's also mentioning that the hyperloop doesn't even go to the city center, which forces you to rely on other methods of transport (like the humble railway) the costs are understated because all entrepreneurs (especially elon musk) are prone to twisting the facts when it comes to expenses. $10 million per km of viaduct is not something that happens in civil engineering (unless you have the best possible terrain) [quote]If we go by what the Federal Railroad Administration said for the costs of Maglev then building that track would cost $18 - $36 billion vs $4 billion for the Hyperloop.[/QUOTE] hyperloop isn't going to cost $4 billion lmao civil engineering projects of this scale cost much more than that, especially when we are dealing with an experimental prototype which has never been tested before why will it be so cheap? if he figured out how to make viaducts so cheap, where are all of the civil engineers jumping on? he could sell the technology behind their manufacture to them and revolutionize civil engineering

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49586840]except hyperloop wouldn't be able to handle the same capacity - which is the point of mass transit. you are increasing the passengers per hour you would need four hyperloop lines in order to even have the same passenger capacity as a typical high-speed rail, and that's being generous to the hyperloop. there's also mentioning that the hyperloop doesn't even go to the city center, which forces you to rely on other methods of transport (like the humble railway) the costs are understated because all entrepreneurs (especially elon musk) are prone to twisting the facts when it comes to expenses. $10 million per km of viaduct is not something that happens in civil engineering (unless you have the best possible terrain) hyperloop isn't going to cost $4 billion lmao civil engineering projects of this scale cost much more than that, especially when we are dealing with an experimental prototype which has never been tested before why will it be so cheap? if he figured out how to make viaducts so cheap, where are all of the civil engineers jumping on? he could sell the technology behind their manufacture to them and revolutionize civil engineering[/QUOTE] Just because things cost a lot in the past doesn't mean they have to in the future. You would obviously build a test track and work on smaller tracks before attempting a large project. Why couldn't it go to the city centre? [QUOTE]hyperloop isn't going to cost $4 billion lmao civil engineering projects of this scale cost much more than that[/QUOTE] This sounds like something a LOT of people said about SpaceX, Musk proved them wrong.

[QUOTE=Morgen;49586954]Just because things cost a lot in the past doesn't mean they have to in the future. You would obviously build a test track and work on smaller tracks before attempting a large project. Why couldn't it go to the city centre?[/quote] They're not building it to the city center (probably because it'll cost shitloads, and it might be impossible to secure planning permission). [quote]This sounds like something a LOT of people said about SpaceX, Musk proved them wrong.[/QUOTE] elon musk is a charlatan who keeps dabbling into too many enterprises he knows little about he achieved a lot in the dot com boom doing things that take very little effort or capital resources that made him wealthy and believes that this success instantly qualifies him to take on the giant problems of mass transit, space travel, and personal transport all at once. people in the united states treat any crank seriously if he has enough money (they're already considering electing one president). most of the people who praise the hyperloop (which incidentally includes much of the media) haven't bothered looking up the opinions of people who actually know their shit: [url]https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/loopy-ideas-are-fine-if-youre-an-entrepreneur/[/url] it's about as redeemable as the solar road (remember that bullshit a while back?)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587047]They're not building it to the city center (probably because it'll cost shitloads, and it might be impossible to secure planning permission). elon musk is a charlatan who keeps dabbling into too many enterprises he knows little about he achieved a lot in the dot com boom doing things that take very little effort or capital resources that made him wealthy and believes that this success instantly qualifies him to take on the giant problems of mass transit, space travel, and personal transport all at once. people in the united states treat any crank seriously if he has enough money (they're already considering electing one president). most of the people who praise the hyperloop (which incidentally includes much of the media) haven't bothered looking up the opinions of people who actually know their shit: [url]https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/loopy-ideas-are-fine-if-youre-an-entrepreneur/[/url] it's about as redeemable as the solar road (remember that bullshit a while back?)[/QUOTE] like it's fine to talk shit about this idea but really? he's a charlatan? a hack fraud? I actually can't take that criticism seriously.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587047]They're not building it to the city center (probably because it'll cost shitloads, and it might be impossible to secure planning permission). elon musk is a charlatan who keeps dabbling into too many enterprises he knows little about he achieved a lot in the dot com boom doing things that take very little effort or capital resources that made him wealthy and believes that this success instantly qualifies him to take on the giant problems of mass transit, space travel, and personal transport all at once. people in the united states treat any crank seriously if he has enough money (they're already considering electing one president). most of the people who praise the hyperloop (which incidentally includes much of the media) haven't bothered looking up the opinions of people who actually know their shit: [url]https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/loopy-ideas-are-fine-if-youre-an-entrepreneur/[/url] it's about as redeemable as the solar road (remember that bullshit a while back?)[/QUOTE] They aren't building it at all yet so I'm not sure that really means much? Musk has created extremely disruptive companies, both Tesla and SpaceX have had a large impact on their industries. A charlatan he is not. He isn't even doing much with Hyperloop as he already has his plate full with Tesla and SpaceX and the odd thing at Solarcity. Private companies can't do space travel they said, electric cars will never take off they said, the internet will never replace the yellow pages they said...

[QUOTE=Morgen;49587136]They aren't building it at all yet so I'm not sure that really means much? Musk has created extremely disruptive companies, both Tesla and SpaceX have had a large impact on their industries. A charlatan he is not. He isn't even doing much with Hyperloop as he already has his plate full with Tesla and SpaceX and the odd thing at Solarcity. Private companies can't do space travel they said, electric cars will never take off they said, the internet will never replace the yellow pages they said...[/QUOTE] tesla and spacex are kept afloat by subsidies, starry eyed investors, and dodgy accounting. his projects are doomed to be overtaken because he has little to no expertise in these things, and the corporations which spend much more time and money on it are going to outcompete him. even one project (like say tesla) would require his whole commitment on it, instead he gets bored and fucks off on the next dubious scheme teslas entire future hinges on whenever or not google decides to focus on low-end vehicles. he's basically a hack fraud con man. he was successful in the early dot com boom (something that isn't repeatable) and because of it, people hold him up as some kind of super genius that can achieve anything he can ignore the auto industry, he can ignore all of the civil engineers, all those pesky naysayers who criticize his dodgy accounting and strange projects will be proven wrong in the end! (soon enough, i promise!) [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49587092]like it's fine to talk shit about this idea but really? he's a charlatan? a hack fraud?[/QUOTE] pretty much he's a crank with too much money and loyal supporters who think every one of his wildly overambitious schemes is going to be successful.

It's not really fair to call Musk a hack or charlatan. He's got degrees in both Economics and Physics. He [I]is[/I] a physicist. He clearly knows what he is doing. Also he didn't write that Hyperloop .pdf. His SpaceX engineers did. There are fair criticisms of Elon Musk, but I don't think a hack or charlatan are among them. I would say he's unrealistically ambitious, potentially temperamental. He has a record of being bad at deadlines. Some ex-employees have said there's too much of a "Fear of god" among employees to tell him his idea/plans aren't the best option. And he expects his workers to work like robots and overtime is not just expected of you, it's the norm.

[QUOTE=OvB;49587239]It's not really fair to call Musk a hank or charlatan. He's got degrees in both Economics and Physics. He [I]is[/I] a physicist.[/QUOTE] noted forum racist dainbramagestudios has a degree in physics and it doesn't really make him qualified to build and run a multibillion dollar civil engineering project using untested technology like musk can't cover everything, and given he keeps putting his attention into multiple different areas he has little idea about (without much input from the respective persons in those fields), it's not really the recipe for success

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587267]noted forum racist dainbramagestudios has a degree in physics and it doesn't really make him qualified to build and run a multibillion dollar civil engineering project using untested technology like musk can't cover everything, and given he keeps putting his attention into multiple different areas he has little idea about (without much input from the respective persons in those fields), it's not really the recipe for success[/QUOTE] He isn't running anything though. The company Hyperloop Transportation Technologies is not associated with Musk. They aren't even funded by Musk. They just took an idea of his and ran with it. Musks involvement is: [I]"Hey I have this idea and I had some of my engineers write it out."[/I] The furthest involvement Musk has in any of this is that he might build his own track on his own property to test pods for other companies.

Sobotnik, you really have it out for Elon, don't ya? Like OvB said, Elon has nothing to do with Hyperloop. And yet you keep dragging his name through the mud in front of everyone. He may have thought up the idea, but someone else decided to pursue it with their money.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49586475] the hack fraud elon musk[/QUOTE] Yeah I'm sorry but you just lost all credibility with me. Do you even have any evidence of this? All it's looking like is that you're talking out of your ass right now. And besides, it's other people's money. You don't get to dictate what they can spend their money on, even if you think it's just a pipe dream.

[QUOTE=OvB;49587293]He isn't running anything though. The company Hyperloop Transportation Technologies is not associated with Musk. They aren't even funded by Musk. They just took an idea of his and ran with it. Musks involvement is: [I]"Hey I have this idea and I had some of my engineers write it out."[/I] The furthest involvement Musk has in any of this is that he might build his own track on his own property to test pods for other companies.[/QUOTE] the main problem is that it still suffers from the same shortcomings. musk isn't a civil engineer, and the design he penned out (and the one that the hyperloop company is working on) isn't really feasible either

When you actually look at it, Elon Musk has only started three companies. Zip2.com(sold for millions), X.com(merged with coinfinity and became PayPal, Musk bought out for millions), and SpaceX. He was an investor of Tesla Motors and then mutinied the CEO that was running it into the ground. He's said in the past he doesn't want to be Tesla CEO forever. He only intends to run Tesla until he's confident he can hand it off without it tanking. He's a chairman for SolarCity. A company his cousins started with his advice. He basically just attends meetings and "hears the good news." SpaceX was his only intentional eccentric millionaire pet project.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587328]the main problem is that it still suffers from the same shortcomings. musk isn't a civil engineer, and the design he penned out (and the one that the hyperloop company is working on) isn't really feasible either[/QUOTE] this really doesn't get to the heart of him being a fraud, hack, charlatan, liar, cheat, embezzler, whatever else you want to throw at him though? Like I am not a huge fan of the guy, but I do like him a bit, he's a guy who's done his best to surround himself not with yes men, but with the experts in their fields, and I'd agree, he's let his ego get in the way a bit in running these companies, but he's way more deserving of credit than you're giving him I thought you were a fan of capitalistic types who made their own money and do something with it? is it only okay when it's mega conglomerates doing that or something?

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49587313]Yeah I'm sorry but you just lost all credibility with me. Do you even have any evidence of this? All it's looking like is that you're talking out of your ass right now. And besides, it's other people's money. You don't get to dictate what they can spend their money on, even if you think it's just a pipe dream.[/QUOTE] I think Sobotnik has genuinely convinced himself that Musk is a fraud and his ideas are shit. Logic doesn't apply at this point.

Researching into wild ideas isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes they lead to great discoveries. Hyperloop may not become a permanent thing, but the research behind it can't be all bad.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49587313]Yeah I'm sorry but you just lost all credibility with me. Do you even have any evidence of this? All it's looking like is that you're talking out of your ass right now.[/quote] reading his white paper on the hyperloop they literally lie about the energy expenditure of high speed rail in order to make it look bad [quote]Options are also included to increase the transportation system to other major population centers across California. It is also worth noting the energy cost of this system is less than any currently existing mode of transport (Figure 1). The only system that comes close to matching the low energy requirements of Hyperloop is the fully electric Tesla Model S.[/quote] minus the obvious note about how good the tesla is, the paper states HSR expends this much energy (which is nearly 900 Mj, which is about 1300 Kj per passenger hour) [img]https://i.gyazo.com/34c989993b45b82e715e6e49fb973581.png[/img] whereas in reality: old.uic.org/download.php/publication/526E.pdf [img]https://i.gyazo.com/42ef055ae56992b1a1f80cb5150489f1.png[/img] it expends between 73 and 130 Watt Hours, which is between 263 Kj per passenger hour and 468 Kj per hour. either they didn't do the research, or they're frauds

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587328]the main problem is that it still suffers from the same shortcomings. musk isn't a civil engineer, and the design he penned out (and the one that the hyperloop company is working on) isn't really feasible either[/QUOTE] hence the reason why he has engineers on payroll

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587267]noted forum racist dainbramagestudios has a degree in physics and it doesn't really make him qualified to build and run a multibillion dollar civil engineering project using untested technology [/QUOTE] wtf kind of comparison is that???? [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] Like seriously

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49587575]hence the reason why he has engineers on payroll[/QUOTE] there's more than a superficial difference between a software engineer or electrical engineer and a civil engineer

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587498]reading his white paper on the hyperloop they literally lie about the energy expenditure of high speed rail in order to make it look bad minus the obvious note about how good the tesla is, the paper states HSR expends this much energy (which is nearly 900 Mj, which is about 1300 Kj per passenger hour) [img]https://i.gyazo.com/34c989993b45b82e715e6e49fb973581.png[/img] whereas in reality: old.uic.org/download.php/publication/526E.pdf [img]https://i.gyazo.com/42ef055ae56992b1a1f80cb5150489f1.png[/img] it expends between 73 and 130 Watt Hours, which is between 263 Kj per passenger hour and 468 Kj per hour. either they didn't do the research, or they're frauds[/QUOTE] The Hyperloop graph is [I]existing[/I] modes of transportation between LA and San Fran. There are no high speed rail lines between those cities. The number is for standard trains and comes from somewhere in the transportation energy data book (Oak Ridge National Labs): [url]http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter9.shtml[/url]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587607]there's more than a superficial difference between a software engineer or electrical engineer and a civil engineer[/QUOTE] well if you're right that everyone at those companies is frauds and shit, then I guess that'll be self evident soon enough and you don't have to try and sell us on the fact you're as right as possible about a man and company you have quite some distance from

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587498]reading his white paper on the hyperloop they literally lie about the energy expenditure of high speed rail in order to make it look bad minus the obvious note about how good the tesla is, the paper states HSR expends this much energy (which is nearly 900 Mj, which is about 1300 Kj per passenger hour) whereas in reality: old.uic.org/download.php/publication/526E.pdf it expends between 73 and 130 Watt Hours, which is between 263 Kj per passenger hour and 468 Kj per hour. either they didn't do the research, or they're frauds[/QUOTE] Looks like the Hyperloop white paper figures match up with the source they cite, [url]http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter2.shtml[/url]

Also, American high speed rail is a joke compared to European/Asian.

[QUOTE=Morgen;49587618]Looks like the Hyperloop white paper figures match up with the source they cite, [url]http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter2.shtml[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=OvB;49587611]The Hyperloop graph is [I]existing[/I] modes of transportation between LA and San Fran. There are no high speed rail lines between those cities. The number is for standard trains and comes from somewhere in the transportation energy data book (Oak Ridge National Labs): [url]http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter9.shtml[/url][/QUOTE] the problem is that it completely discounts high speed rail in the paper as the alternative, especially when the project is underway in california right now. it's basically implying that a dirty old diesel burning amtrak train is the same as HSR when they clearly aren't. if it actually did high speed rail some justice in the paper, the case for the hyperloop would start to rest on rather shaky foundations. the paper outright states that nothing comes close to it in terms of energy expenditure, when it is very obviously omitting HSR (which is the main competitor) i'm still not getting why it wouldn't be just be a better idea to copy what the rest of the world is doing for mass transit by improving rail infrastructure instead of dubious science fiction schemes

[QUOTE=croguy;49586363]Maglev and Hyperloop are both very quick designs, but the question boils down on how reliable and cost effective they are. I wouldn't want a Hyperloop tube that breaks down every other day, or a maglev which spends ridiculous amounts of electricity.[/QUOTE]Even if you had a ridiculously energy-intensive method of transportation that... really doesn't matter anymore. Nuclear power is already very well established and as older reactors are being decommissioned newer reactor designs are on the table that can be built near the original one and use it's waste as fuel. (ALFRED, looking at you) Plus we're on the cusp of nuclear fusion as a power source, which is literally fucking sun power so electrical energy is no longer going to be an issue provided the infrastructure is maintained. Maglev and high speed rail are completely within the realm of possibility in the US, for a long time the absurd distance has always been an inhibiting factor but the cost of both of these systems are being driven down every year. Japan's already had plenty of success with their rail networks, so has Europe (if you ignore the French shutting down their trains if a single snowflake touches a track) so there's already proof they're viable and plenty of research and engineering to make it happen. That said though, driving is also getting a hell of a lot cheaper too, especially with the emergence of viable all-electric vehicles that will only get cheaper and easier as the infrastructure to support them comes about. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587047]elon musk is a charlatan who keeps dabbling into too many enterprises he knows little about[/QUOTE]I was agreeing with you up until you started leveling baseless claims against Elon Musk because he said this was a cool idea at one point and would like to explore it. This has nothing to do with Musk, this is a project done by different people entirely unrelated to that guy. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587047]people in the united states treat any crank seriously if he has enough money (they're already considering electing one president).[/QUOTE]Man what the fuck is with you? Get the fuck off your high horse, Richard fucking Branson had as much credibility back in the day as Musk does now and the Virgin Group is [U]huge[/U] so I don't know what the hell you're talking about. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587204]his projects are doomed to be overtaken because he has little to no expertise in these things,[/QUOTE]You do know his "dotcom luck" happened when he was going to university right? He actually has a degree. Actually on that note what the fuck do [I]you[/I] know about any of this anyway? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49587204]he can ignore the auto industry, he can ignore all of the civil engineers, all those pesky naysayers who criticize his dodgy accounting and strange projects will be proven wrong in the end! (soon enough, i promise!)[/QUOTE]He's been doing this for awhile now, both Tesla and SpaceX are doing great and are continuing to grow, and let us not forget the monumental achievement of reusable launch vehicles. You can bitch and moan and cry about how he's a hack, a charlatan, a fraud, and how all his companies are going to implode but the fact of the matter is [B]reality disagrees with you.[/B] The claim that "he will fail" has already been proven wrong, SpaceX is not going anywhere in the near future and I dare you to actually prove me wrong on that. Go ahead, cite some stupid goddamn unrelated article about the price of tea in China like you always do to try and prove that SpaceX is somehow going to go nowhere. We're all fucking waiting. (especially all the engineers and engineering students on the board who are each capable of telling you that you don't know jack shit about any of this)