Gorbachev to Defend Putin at Berlin Wall Anniversary - Polidicks

[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46430573]Yes, I think Gorbachev should have ensured the Soviet Union reformed and reorganized on it's own terms. Slowly abandoning the more messed-up aspects of communism (like state-atheism) in such a way that would not allow the West to think they'd "won".[/QUOTE] Hell, I thought State-atheism was the only good part of communism.

[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46431233]The Native Americans were (relatively) peaceful people, but do you think they would not have done cruel things to the White Man's women and children as revenge for all the terrible things the White Man did to them?[/QUOTE] Have you ever heard of Crow Creek? Oh lol it's on that list that just got posted.

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;46431525]The only thing messed up about that was letting the Eastern Orthodox Church live.[/QUOTE] The balkans and greece would like to have a word with you.

[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46430573]Yes, I think Gorbachev should have ensured the Soviet Union reformed and reorganized on it's own terms. Slowly abandoning the more messed-up aspects of communism (like state-atheism) in such a way that would not allow the West to think they'd "won".[/QUOTE] You've somehow surpassed Laserguided and entered this amazingly interesting new world of insanity. I simply don't even know how to reply to this.

[QUOTE=ImperialGuard;46431681]You've somehow surpassed Laserguided and entered this amazingly interesting new world of insanity. I simply don't even know how to reply to this.[/QUOTE] Laserguided has never posted much in the way of direct support for the Soviet Union (and his posts about Russia are generally fairly low-key), but he posts a lot of articles that all come off with a deep pro-Russian vibe. Any remotely positive (militarily) piece of Russian news is posted by him. WhollyRufus is just insane.

[QUOTE=Deng;46431294] Also you must still account for the Russians unjustified genocide of Poles, Ukrainians, Balts, etc.[/QUOTE] Ah just noticed this. I can't, won't and never intended to justify anything of the sort, that was you putting words into my mouth. I remarked it was not so exceptional at the time, other nations did it and it was a time that ethnic cleansing was seen as a "valid solution". Doesn't make it ok or logical but they did it, germans did it, a few decades prior the brits did it. Your point that the soviets defending against the nazis was dirty because of what they did afterwards is fallacy and you managed to steer the dicussion away to the more defensible thing of "you think the soviets were ok?? thats not right .'. i win" which is absurd. As I stated yesterday you original point, about it being dirty because of what followed was a poor one. Any war can be dirty if you consider the consequences or what preceeded as dirty. You tried to argue that Russians have been exceptionally brutual in their empire building antics. They were brutal yes but not exceptionally so. The belgians cut off limbs, the brits starved people to death, all empires used slaves.You are using the actions of historical tyrants to cast shadows on people who weren't even born at the time, this is another fallacy. [quote]Russia is a country that MUST face its past and owe up to what it did. Only then can they be move forwards as a society, otherwise they will keep repeating what they did in the past, as the experience of the USSR and the Tsars show.[/quote] You accuse me of using "whataboutthis" arguements but you yourself are using stalin era soviet genocides to back up some kind of "ussr was tyranical, russia was in the ussr .'. russia is tyranical" [quote] Russia was a violent imperialist state for much of its history. It invaded and repressed about half of Asia and half of Europe, in addition to constantly fucking around in the Middle East and China.[/quote] This beating around the bush is tiresome. You seem like a relatively smart guy with lots of good sources, the deaths in war percent chart was very interesting, but this discussion is mired with hopefullt unintentional straw men. To make it more legible, since you wanted me to revisit it here it the course of dicussion: [quote=you] Russia was a violent imperialist state for much of its history. It invaded and repressed about half of Asia and half of Europe, in addition to constantly fucking around in the Middle East and China.[/quote] [quote=you]And as soon as the war ended, the Soviet Union immediately "cleansed" Eastern Europe of all the Germans they could find.[/quote] At this point you are using long past historical stuff, totally out of context, to back up some kind of anti-russian arguement. I proceed with [quote=me]In ww1 and ww2 the Germans ethnically cleansed the slavs. The germanic/slavic conflict goes back centuries. Where does slav even come from. Slave. The Soviet Union was brutal, cruel and arguably evil in some cases but they were doing something which at the time everybody (nearby in the past decade or 2 ) was doing. It was a time when eugenics, ethnic cleansing and tyranny were the norm.[/quote] Yes a few decades is out of context (saying it was the norm at the time which it was) but still more in context than the 70 years for your soviets bad thing. I also said they were brutal, cruel and argueably evil, which should, right from the bat, make it quite clear that I do not condone the genocide by any means. It's not ok just as it wasn't ok when any other empire did it. Hopefully this has cleared it up. I do appreciate discussion but I do not appreciate you making me out to be some kind of soviet apologist/fan boy. And saying "Also you must still account for the Russians unjustified genocide of Poles, Ukrainians, Balts, etc." is utterly wrong. I'm not sure where you got it from but I do not appreciate it being credited to me. Also being half polish I have family who died of typhoid in a soviet work camp. You and others jump to incorrect conclusions. I support a multipolar world. If that means Russia steps up to counterbalance the US then so be it. For the record I would prefer the EU, the EU being my favorite power bloc, we're relatively liberal, advanced and progressive. I think you need to know this before you accidentally jump to another baseless accusation.

I don't particularly care for the Soviets. I lost a great uncle to them during WWII. He died in a Soviet work camp after Stalingrad. We only recently got some documents revealing he had died around 1952 instead of during the war.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46431955]Laserguided has never posted much in the way of direct support for the Soviet Union (and his posts about Russia are generally fairly low-key), but he posts a lot of articles that all come off with a deep pro-Russian vibe. Any remotely positive (militarily) piece of Russian news is posted by him. WhollyRufus is just insane.[/QUOTE] Lazerguided is more along the lines of an inner party member.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46432127]I remarked it was not so exceptional at the time, other nations did it and it was a time that ethnic cleansing was seen as a "valid solution". Doesn't make it ok or logical but they did it, germans did it, a few decades prior the brits did it.[/quote] It was exceptional though. Not even the tsars had killed or moved millions of people in the space of a few years. It was changing the map on a huge scale and the effects are still here today. The entire nation of Prussia was obliterated because of the USSR. Konigsberg doesn't belong to Russia and thankfully when Russia collapses again I doubt they can hold onto it. Same goes for the vast areas of Asia where there are Muslims and Turks who are denied autonomy in favour of centralizing power in Moscow. [quote]You accuse me of using "whataboutthis" arguements but you yourself are using stalin era soviet genocides to back up some kind of "ussr was tyranical, russia was in the ussr .'. russia is tyranical"[/quote] The Soviet Union still maintained the gulag system in some form, violently repressed movements for independence, and was generally not much better off than under Stalin. Sure there was a thaw, but it didn't last for long or go very far. [quote]At this point you are using long past historical stuff, totally out of context, to back up some kind of anti-russian arguement.[/quote] Long past historical stuff? This happened 70 years ago. Russia was still moving around people in the 1980s too, or arresting Christians and deeming human rights activists to be mentally ill. While other countries have been up to no good, what the Soviet Union did was several magnitudes worse. [quote]Hopefully this has cleared it up. I do appreciate discussion but I do not appreciate you making me out to be some kind of soviet apologist/fan boy.[/quote] It is moreso that in the hopes to find an opponent to the hegemony of the USA, the possibility that the USA is the most benign superpower so far is a horrifying one, so by making it out as "what happened in the past is in the past, nobodies hands are clean" is being disingenuous.

TL;DR everyone in this thread wants Russians to get exterminated and Russia to be divided between all the natoeu countries