[QUOTE=tinos;32761551]If the only things people did all day was eat drink and sleep, this would make sense.
It costs [I]a lot[/I] of money to run a business, especially here in America.
You can't just make a blanken statement that "the rich" should be taxed more. In fact, by doing this, you'd be putting a cap on the little guy even more. When you're right on the edge of a tax bracket, it can be extremely hard to break through it and actually have it be worth the effort, to further your company, if nothing more.
Yes, he did make a lot of money, and yes he probably has more than he needs, but not any more than he deserves for being as good as he (and his team/ company) is at what they do.[/QUOTE]
Slow down.
Nobody on earth deserves sixy-two million dollars a year.
[QUOTE=Sickle;32759577]Yes let's take 50% of what they earn so they cannot reinvest and create jobs by opening more companies or expanding their existing ones, because they can wipe their asses with banknotes without it, right?
You would go for a higher than 50% tax rate? You're implying that when a person becomes successful, eventually the tax system with actually NEGATE his success and actively take MORE THAN HALF OF WHAT HE EARNED.[/QUOTE]
Hey remember when bush enacted his tax cuts for the rich and it created all those jobs?
yah me neither.
[QUOTE=tinos;32761551]
It costs [I]a lot[/I] of money to run a business, especially here in America.[/QUOTE]
If your business is profitable it costs negative dollars to run it
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;32761611]
Nobody on earth deserves sixy-two million dollars a year.[/QUOTE]
Earth, for the most part, isn't a socialist regime, sorry to burst your bubble.
[QUOTE=tinos;32761753]Earth, for the most part, isn't a socialist regime, sorry to burst your bubble.[/QUOTE]
Tell me one thing that would justify someone earning 62 million dollars a year and then being able to find loopholes to pay around the same as someone making a tenth as much, or even a hundredth as much
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32761678]If your business is profitable it costs negative dollars to run it[/QUOTE]
The point of a business is to expand, grow, and continue to pull money. It takes money to make money.
People don't just create something, and say "ight, I guess we're good", then close up shop...
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32761771]Tell me one thing that would justify someone earning 62 million dollars a year and then being able to find loopholes to pay around the same as someone making a tenth as much, or even a hundredth as much[/QUOTE]
I agree that finding loopholes is not right, but I don't agree they should be taxed more to make up for government mistakes, or for any other reason you can come up with. "It's not fair" is not a fair answere here. They do what they do, and they do it well. [I]Very well[/I].
[QUOTE=tinos;32761787]The point of a business is to expand, grow, and continue to pull money. It takes money to make money.
People don't just create something, and say "ight, I guess we're good", then close up shop...[/quote]
And that's why I'm not advocating for a 100% tax rate lol
[QUOTE=tinos;32761787]I agree that finding loopholes is not right, but I don't agree they should be taxed more to make up for government mistakes, or for any other reason you can come up with. "It's not fair" is not a fair answere here. They do what they do, and they do it well. [I]Very well[/I].[/QUOTE]
Being exploitative and manipulative [i]well[/i] isn't a good thing and people shouldn't be rewarded for it
Buffett showing how it's done.
[QUOTE=tinos;32761753]Earth, for the most part, isn't a socialist regime, sorry to burst your bubble.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations on completely ignoring the fact that I was addressing the fact that you said they deserved it. They don't deserve it. It's just a simple fact, there's no real hostility around it since nobody can be capable of truly deserving slash earning that much money, it's just how things have happened.
[QUOTE=Ermac20;32746380]thats a lot of money[/QUOTE]
$60 million dollars isn't even a percentage of Warren Buffets total worth.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32761878]
Being [B]exploitative and manipulative[/B] [i]well[/i] isn't a good thing and people shouldn't be rewarded for it[/QUOTE]
By gaining it through (longterm) investments, which I and millions of other people do?
[QUOTE]a lot of his income came from investments, which are taxed at a lower rate than wages[/QUOTE]
By donating it to charities he feels do better than the govt, while lowing his taxable income?
[QUOTE]By sheltering millions of dollars of income from taxation through charitable giving, Mr. Buffett demonstrates that he doesn't trust Washington with his own money either[/QUOTE]
orr?
------
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;32762002]Congratulations on completely ignoring the fact that I was addressing the fact that you said they deserved it. They don't deserve it. It's just a simple fact, there's no real hostility around it since nobody can be capable of truly deserving slash earning that much money, it's just how things have happened.[/QUOTE]
I ignored nothing, you just have no clue what your talking about. In capitalism (most of the world) you deserve what you work for. Some people are better at earning than others.
In socialism, you get what they tell you, and you are laying down these rules as we speak, because you think it unfair. I'll tell you what, instead of crying about other's achievements, work at your own.
[QUOTE=tinos;32762148]By gaining it through (longterm) investments, which I and millions of other people do? [/QUOTE]
haha oh you're rich
ok
you go make your investments and watch your pc screen as you make money doing nothing and I'll go do some actual work and get paid a fraction as much
I like how people argument that these people deserve to be rich by doing their work.
I guess the miners who work soaked in sweat, dirty with coal dust, working in coal mines with massive death rates and naturally shorter life expectancy aren't working hard enough, because their families are often nearly starving. These bussinessmen wearing expensive suits and being driven around the place in expensive limousines surely have it hard, with the hardest problem in their life being beating the par on a golf field.
Now imagine what would happen if all miners in the world stopped doing their work at once. What would happen? We would be without energy. The whole system would crumble from the bottom. Production would fail first, followed by transport, food production, transportation, and in the end, even communication.
Now what would happen if all bussinessmen in the world stopped doing their work at once. Yeah, there might be some drop of efficiency in the bussinesses. Perhaps some mismanagement, overproduction here and a bit of lack of resources there. But the problems would grow only slowly, and just the low-level lead would be able to correct them quite fine.
Or imagine that all miners became bussinessmen or vice versa with nobody replacing the missing side. Which situation would be worse?
So, how do exactly the bussinessmen deserve THESE amounts of money? Is their work really that important for us, or is it because their work gives them direct ability to enrich themselves?
I am not promoting the thought of comunism - that everyone deserves the same amount of money, regardless of what he does, as that DOES promote doing nothing. However, please, don't tell me bussinessmen deserve the MASSIVE money they make, in contrast with all these miners, firemen, teachers, factory workers, truck drivers, and even scientists, who make negligible amount of money compared to the bussinessmen, while their effort and work is clearly significantly more extensive than theirs.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32759375]
There was a time in America, a very prosperous time for America in fact, where he'd by paying upwards of 80 or 90 percent[/QUOTE]
But why should someone work to have 90% of their income taken off them?
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32762281]
Now imagine what would happen if all miners in the world stopped doing their work at once.[/QUOTE]
About that whole Atlas Shrugged thing
You're completely right. If the top few percent "shrug", nothing will happen. If the bottom majority "shrugs", the world gets shaken up and falls over.
Ayn Rand had it wrong
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32762299]But why should someone work to have 90% of their income taken off them?[/QUOTE]
I don't necessarily want a 90% tax rate for anyone, I'm just saying that it [b]worked[/b]
I think about 25% - 30% is a decent tax rate, I think it's wrong for the government to take a majority of someones pay no matter how much that person earns.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32762386]I think about 25% - 30% is a decent tax rate, I think it's wrong for the government to take a majority of someones pay no matter how much that person earns.[/QUOTE]
25% is adequate for middle-upper class but not for someone who is making tens of millions
actually raise all income taxes enough to completely abolish sales tax
By taxing people too much you discourage business, which is not good for the economy.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32762465]By taxing people too much you discourage business, which is not good for the economy.[/QUOTE]
There are quite a few places with higher taxes than the US that are doing better financially
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32762386]I think about 25% - 30% is a decent tax rate, I think it's wrong for the government to take a majority of someones pay no matter how much that person earns.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what leads people to this conclussion.
Even if you took away 90% of Buffet's income, he would still have enough money to buy pretty much anything he could want for his personal enjoyment, in reasonable quantity. Why should he "need" more?
If you live on two dollars (or whatever would be barely self-sustaining amount of money) per day, taking half of that away can possibly kill you. If you make two million dollars a year, and you lose half of that, you can still buy in a good hotel daily, eat in good places, and do pretty much anything that isn't inflated with the "exclusivity" prices. You are still alright. And we are talking about people who mae sixty times that.
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32762465]By taxing people too much you discourage business, which is not good for the economy.[/QUOTE]
This statement is a fallacy.
If you want a simple proof:
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32762514]There are quite a few places with higher taxes than the US that are doing better financially[/QUOTE]
At this moment in time, I thought nobody made over 10 million a year. But 62?
Donate half of that, and improve the world Mr. Buffett.
He, as one of very few, does donate a fuckton.
[QUOTE=credesniper;32762555]At this moment in time, I thought nobody made over 10 million a year. But 62?
Donate half of that, and improve the world Mr. Buffett.[/QUOTE]
He's donating more than half, actually.
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]In June 2006, he announced a plan to give away his fortune to charity, with 83% of it going to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. He pledged about the equivalent of 10 million Berkshire Hathaway Class B shares to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (worth approximately US$30.7 billion as of June 23, 2006), making it the largest charitable donation in history, and Buffett one of the leaders of philanthrocapitalism.] The foundation will receive 5% of the total donation on an annualised basis each July, beginning in 2006. (Significantly, however, the pledge is conditional upon the foundation's giving away each year, beginning in 2009, an amount that is at least equal to the value of the entire previous year's gift from Buffett, in addition to 5% of the foundation's net assets.) Buffett also will join the board of directors of the Gates Foundation, although he does not plan to be actively involved in the foundation's investments.
In 2006, he auctioned his 2001 Lincoln Town Car on eBay to raise money for Girls, Inc. In 2007, he auctioned a luncheon with himself that raised a final bid of $650,100 for a charity. On June 27, 2008, Zhao Danyang, a general manager at Pure Heart China Growth Investment Fund, won the 2008 5-day online "Power Lunch with Warren Buffett" charity auction with a bid of $2,110,100. Auction proceeds benefit the San Francisco Glide Foundation. The following year, executives from Toronto-based Salida Capital paid US$1.68 million to dine with Buffett. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32762559]He, as one of very few, does donate a fuckton.[/QUOTE]
Buffett's one of the good guys
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32762173]haha oh you're rich
ok
you go make your investments and watch your pc screen as you make money doing nothing and I'll go do some actual work and get paid a fraction as much[/QUOTE]
Writing me off because of wealth huh?
I'm not rich, I work and invest on the side.
You only need a grand to get going, shoot, Buffet started his empire with 100 bucks.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32762281]I like how people argument that these people deserve to be rich by doing their work...[/QUOTE]
I agree with you to an extent. Yes I think some people are underpaid. But I don't think either side could handle each other's job in most cases. I'm a machinist, working for a company. But I also have some sense of business, which I plan to expand on. And I do by all means think I should earn more for the effort I put in to bettering myself, my current work, and my future company, whatever it might become.
Since the businessmen are the ones with business sense, you work for them, and they make the rules. Well, so does the state etc. who impose some, and rightfully so, or we'd be like China, no doubt.
It's not easy to run a business, or all the miners would own their own mines. It's just not laborious in the same way.
There is a lot of greed out there, but not everywhere or in all situations. And this all becomes highly personal.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32762281]I like how people argument that these people deserve to be rich by doing their work.
I guess the miners who work soaked in sweat, dirty with coal dust, working in coal mines with massive death rates and naturally shorter life expectancy aren't working hard enough, because their families are often nearly starving. These bussinessmen wearing expensive suits and being driven around the place in expensive limousines surely have it hard, with the hardest problem in their life being beating the par on a golf field.
Now imagine what would happen if all miners in the world stopped doing their work at once. What would happen? We would be without energy. The whole system would crumble from the bottom. Production would fail first, followed by transport, food production, transportation, and in the end, even communication.
Now what would happen if all bussinessmen in the world stopped doing their work at once. Yeah, there might be some drop of efficiency in the bussinesses. Perhaps some mismanagement, overproduction here and a bit of lack of resources there. But the problems would grow only slowly, and just the low-level lead would be able to correct them quite fine.
Or imagine that all miners became bussinessmen or vice versa with nobody replacing the missing side. Which situation would be worse?
So, how do exactly the bussinessmen deserve THESE amounts of money? Is their work really that important for us, or is it because their work gives them direct ability to enrich themselves?
I am not promoting the thought of comunism - that everyone deserves the same amount of money, regardless of what he does, as that DOES promote doing nothing. However, please, don't tell me bussinessmen deserve the MASSIVE money they make, in contrast with all these miners, firemen, teachers, factory workers, truck drivers, and even scientists, who make negligible amount of money compared to the bussinessmen, while their effort and work is clearly significantly more extensive than theirs.[/QUOTE]
You sort of generalize business people though. Everybody has a role, miners mine, and businessmen conduct their business. Just because the businessmen aren't out there doing physical labor doesn't mean they aren't important. Of course there are a lot of useless business folk out there these days that are being paid more than they should, but you shouldn't knock every business dude out there, a lot of them play very important roles in society and have in fact earned their paycheck at the end of the day.
A lot of businessmen play VERY important roles, without them we wouldn't be allowed or able to mine at all, companies would have a harder time working together without them, most would probably have a hard time sustaining at all.
[QUOTE=tinos;32762929]I agree with you to an extent. Yes I think some people are underpaid. But I don't think either side could handle each other's job in most cases. I'm a machinist, working for a company. But I also have some sense of business, which I plan to expand on. And I do by all means think I should earn more for the effort I put in to bettering myself, my current work, and my future company, whatever it might become.
Since the businessmen are the ones with business sense, you work for them, and they make the rules. Well, so does the state etc. who impose some, and rightfully so, or we'd be like China, no doubt.
It's not easy to run a business, or all the miners would own their own mines. It's just not laborious in the same way.
There is a lot of greed out there, but not everywhere or in all situations. And this all becomes highly personal.[/QUOTE]
Problem is that if they all had their own mines, we would be in one of the "world crumbling" scenarios.
Not completely everyone could be a manager, but majority of people could. Thing is that it doesn't only take effort, but to quite some degree, luck. People are often in situation which makes starting their own bussiness impossible, regardless of their skill or will.
And yeah, lets say bussinessmen indeed are entitled to pay somewhat higher than the miners. Two times? Alright. Five times higher? Ok with me. Ten times? Ok, that's pushing it, but I guess they don't have it as easy as it might seem...
But after that? There are people who make hundreads of times the pay of people who litelarly work themselves to death, while doing a little bit more than the "lesser managers", or actually less.
This is why I think that these "super rich" should be taxed, most of all people. There is only this much money you can be entitled to, because there is only this much effort a human being can show, regardless it's wit, it's will, and it's other predispositions. The rest is simple snowballing of money.
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=NorthernGate;32762944]You sort of generalize business people though. Everybody has a role, miners mine, and businessmen conduct their business. Just because the businessmen aren't out there doing physical labor doesn't mean they aren't important. Of course there are a lot of useless business folk out there these days that are being paid more than they should, but you shouldn't knock every business dude out there, a lot of them play very important roles in society and have in fact earned their paycheck at the end of the day.
A lot of businessmen play VERY important roles, without them we wouldn't be allowed or able to mine at all, companies would have a harder time working together without them, most would probably have a hard time sustaining at all.[/QUOTE]
Yes, of course. Still, I dare to say they would still do their work well if they got half of what they are getting. I am not saying - lets get of bussinessmen. I am saying - give them a honest salary.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32763143]
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
Yes, of course. Still, I dare to say they would still do their work well if they got half of what they are getting. I am not saying - lets get of bussinessmen. I am saying - give them a honest salary.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that completely. In your post you seemed to demonize businessmen in general, though I can see that's not the case, so I digress.
I admit that I might have some personal hatred towards many of them (with exceptions like Buffet and Gates), but I admit that they are not useless. Just many of them are, and none of them should form a caste this much segregated from the rest of society.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32763143]Problem is that if they all had their own mines, we would be in one of the "world crumbling" scenarios.
Not completely everyone could be a manager, but majority of people could.[/QUOTE]
I assure you the reason why they don't is less because they think of an abstract crumbling world, and more because they haven't the, skill, knowhow, or determination to "dig their way" out of the bottom.
I know plenty blue collard works, heck I'm a machinist, I'm one of them! A lot of them are just plain content with where they are.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32763143]
Thing is that it doesn't only take effort, but to quite some degree, luck.
...
This is why I think that these "super rich" should be taxed, most of all people. There is only this much money you can be entitled to, because there is only this much effort a human being can show, regardless it's wit, it's will, and it's other predispositions. The rest is simple snowballing of money.
[/QUOTE]
I guarantee, aside from the lotto players, the 'lucky' are out there striving for that luck you speak of. It's ridiculous you think it is at all right to over tax, or even put a cap on earnings. If the businessman is fallowing all the laws necessary for him to have a successful business in a society that allows nobodies to become somebodies... There is no reason to punish him/her, just because the number in their bank is larger than yours.
The only place in major earnings that I draw the line is when work is exported to countries where it could be done cheaper. A corporation should benefit it's country in every way. Providing domestic jobs, even at a higher cost to the business owners.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.