Cologne cops defend use of racial profiling on New Year's Eve, Chief praises its success - Polidicks

[QUOTE=sgman91;51612062]All policy is relative. To say that you have no alternative actually does take away any power behind your critique. (Unless your argument is to accept higher crime rates in the name of true equality under the law. People might disagree with this argument, but it is legitimate.)[/QUOTE] I feel that it must be a fallacy of some sort because any criticism of things such as art and movies can be dismissed with "WELL LETS SEE YOU DO BETTER" using this logic. Just because I can't do better, doesn't mean that the already existing piece is good.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51612086]I actually think it probably would fly in the US if a subgroup representing 2% of a larger group was responsible for 22% of the crime in that larger group. In this case it's North African immigrants vs all immigrants, but you could apply that to other (sub)groups. Sauce according to reddit. [url]https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bka-kriminalitaet-fluechtlinge-103.html[/url] Another [url=https://www.thelocal.de/20160113/crime-rates-different-north-africa-syria-migrants]source[/url] said that 40% of those coming from the Maghreb got into trouble with police. Both of those numbers are simply staggering. It's disproportionate to anything we ever see in the US. (Which is actually kind of ironic really, considering how much blatant racism we have in several police departments in larger cities, particularly Chicago.) If the numbers ever get that disproportionate, I'd argue that it's unethical not to profile. It's simply either a waste of resources, or needlessly endangering your citizens if you don't. As long as you do not pointlessly detain people without reason, close monitoring is fine. If you don't want to treat people differently when profiling is clearly [i]this[/i] effective, you'd better be willing to pay the exorbitant taxes required to maintain a sufficient police presence, because sacrificing the safety of your populace is fucking inexcusable.[/QUOTE] If you can tell they're from north africa at a glance, sure. Anything less and it wouldnt fly.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51612133]I feel that it must be a fallacy of some sort because any criticism of things such as art and movies can be dismissed with "WELL LETS SEE YOU DO BETTER" using this logic. Just because I can't do better, doesn't mean that the already existing piece is good.[/QUOTE] A policy can only be bad in the face of a better alternative. If no better alternative can be provided, then the current policy may be the best possible policy. You can't look at the ideal conclusion and call anything that doesn't reach that conclusion bad. Well, I guess you can, but it's meaningless in real life. [editline]1st January 2017[/editline] The problem with your art example is that you can still come up with why an piece of art is bad without physically being able to do better. Being able to do the action isn't a requirement to being able to judge the art. If you were to call a piece of art bad, but not able to provide an example of how it could have been better, then, yes, your critique is equally useless.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612135]If you can tell they're from north africa at a glance, sure. Anything less and it wouldnt fly.[/QUOTE] Well apparently police in germany have more authority to randomly walk up and stop people than in the US, but either way, from what reports have said so far, they actively went out of their way to track these people beforehand based on information gleamed from social media and the like. I could be wrong about that, but to me at least, that's at least a pretty good baseline for probable cause.

It really worries me to see so many people here defending racial profiling.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611276]Detaining people based on suspicious activity, like everyone else does.[/QUOTE] Oh so like last year I feel like in affairs such as keeping people safe, inn law enforcent, there's no place for feel good measures. It calls for pragmatism, even if it is controversial like the topic at hand. Especially so in the situation the immigration policy has created. I don't like it any more than you do, mind you. I just think it's a necessity.

[QUOTE=Paramud;51612226]It really worries me to see so many people here defending racial profiling.[/QUOTE] Um because it isn't off some baseless ideal or personal attitudes? It's based of of very real information which can help combat crime. I guess we should stop screening people at airports who are from certain unstable regions of the world cause that would be racial profiling right. Even though it has been proven that unstable region has produced many terrorists. I got a better idea how about we just go by the honor system and hope nothing bad happens. So many people are criticizing the police for trying to protect their citizens but yet not provided an alternate solution.

[QUOTE=Paramud;51612226]It really worries me to see so many people here defending racial profiling.[/QUOTE] Well considering last year 1000+ sexual assaults happened in Cologne due to a incredibly disproportionate number of perpetrators from North Africa, and the only way for the officers to effectively screen large amounts of people with this common profile is by the use of this racial profiling, then it is the best solution. There really is no alternative unless you somehowed magically integrated the people in a year with better civilized cultural values.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51612268]Um because it isn't off some baseless ideal or personal attitudes? It's based of of very real information which can help combat crime. I guess we should stop screening people at airports who are from certain unstable regions of the world cause that would be racial profiling right. Even though it has been proven that unstable region has produced many terrorists. I got a better idea how about we just go by the honor system and hope nothing bad happens.[/QUOTE] TIL "appearing" to be north african is reasonable enough to be stopped in Germany. Because thats what they did. They stopped people who appeared to be north african. [quote]Police said they had "screened hundreds of North Africans at the main train station," claiming that "we do this because we want to prevent last year's tactic from happening again," a police spokesperson told DW. "Big groups of men surrounding few or individual women," he explained.[/quote] What happened, happened. They racially profiled these men. Police dont go stopping everyone this year who is black because some black guy last year robbed a house down the block.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51612268]So many people are criticizing the police for trying to protect their citizens[/QUOTE] I'm relatively certain the criticism is not over police attempting to protect citizens but rather for the fact that they're utilizing racial profiling. It doesn't matter if it's effective and it doesn't matter if no one here is providing you with an alternative, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It'd probably be very effective to lock everyone from specific countries or racial backgrounds in internment camps, that doesn't justify it, same as it didn't justify the wrongful imprisonment of Japanese-, German-, and Italian-Americans in WW2. I truly can not understand the lengths you have to go through mentally to justify this kind of thing when this same logic produced such horrendous acts less than 75 years ago.

[QUOTE=Paramud;51612297]I'm relatively certain the criticism is not over police attempting to protect citizens but rather for the fact that they're utilizing racial profiling. It doesn't matter if it's effective and it doesn't matter if no one here is providing you with an alternative, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It'd probably be very effective to lock everyone from specific countries or racial backgrounds in internment camps, that doesn't justify it, same as it didn't justify the wrongful imprisonment of Japanese-, German-, and Italian-Americans in WW2. I truly can not understand the lengths you have to go through mentally to justify this kind of thing when this same logic produced such horrendous acts less than 75 years ago.[/QUOTE] Well the cost isn't putting people in camps. It is to hassle someone to show their papers and reroute them from congregating in big groups at an event where this was exactly the problem. Will that hassle cause resentment? Yes, but about just as much as a place like Ben Gurion airport that has been using it forever. So really until you give a better alternative, go join a thinktank or something and come back to reality when you got a better plan. Integration will fix it in the long term, but in the short term there is not much you can do without willfully ignoring the cultural differences these groups have from places they originate from.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51612306]Well the cost isn't putting people in camps. It is to hassle someone to show their papers and reroute them from congregating in big groups at an event where this was exactly the problem. Will that hassle cause resentment? Yes, but about just as much as a place like Ben Gurion airport that has been using it forever. So really until you give a better alternative, go join a thinktank or something and come back to reality when you got a better plan.[/QUOTE] Just because their racist policy is slightly inconvenient doesn't change the fact that it's still a racist policy. And, there really is a better alternative, it's not to employ racial profiling. But that doesn't fit into your "immigrants are violent" narrative here so I understand that you're not going to seriously consider it.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612286]TIL "appearing" to be north african is reasonable enough to be stopped in Germany. Because thats what they did. They stopped people who appeared to be north african. What happened, happened. They racially profiled these men. Police dont go stopping everyone this year who is black because some black guy last year robbed a house down the block.[/QUOTE] From what I've read and seen they screened groups (100s, in other cities up to 1900 people) of North Africans. Ones from that region are the only people who keep arriving in groups that large, any other group that large would probably get checked too. They didn't just stop every single person who looked North African

[QUOTE=Paramud;51612317]And, there really is a better alternative, it's not to employ racial profiling. [/QUOTE] Ah yes that's a real alternative. Do nothing despite the clear overwhelming evidence of what the profile is to cause this radically new phenomenon of sexual assaults in Cologne. You won't experience your native population slowly resent the current government for inactivity and cause the right to ultimately gain popularity, no sir.

[QUOTE=zenler;51611246]What's the alternative then[/QUOTE] Something something sacrifice freedom for security, something something deserve neither.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51612334]Ah yes that's a real alternative. Do nothing despite the clear overwhelming evidence of what the profile is to cause this radically new phenomenon of sexual assaults in Cologne. You won't experience your native population slowly resent the current government for inactivity and cause the right to ultimately gain popularity, no sir.[/QUOTE] Thanks, I was pretty sure that was what was gonna happen.

[QUOTE=Paramud;51612337]Thanks, I was pretty sure that was what was gonna happen.[/QUOTE] Just pointing out how your ineffective alternative actually will just lead to the right gaining support anyways. Though it already looks like the pendulum is swinging back anyways in alot of places sooo.

[QUOTE=Firewarrior;51612319]From what I've read and seen they screened groups (100s, in other cities up to 1900 people) of North Africans. Ones from that region are the only people who keep arriving in groups that large, any other group that large would probably get checked too. They didn't just stop every single person who looked North African[/QUOTE] They stopped 600 people who were brown for no other reason than they were brown and played it off as checking identification. It says so in the article. I guess at this point in Germany anyway no one really cares about the rights of the refugees or migrants. So the means really justify the end here? Would you rather be assumed criminal because of events a year ago than to be treated like any other citizen or resident

Better off having people being raped again than having racial profiling, right. [editline]2nd January 2017[/editline] [url]https://www.thelocal.de/20160113/crime-rates-different-north-africa-syria-migrants[/url] [quote]40 percent of those coming from the Maghreb got into trouble with police.[/quote] No reason other than it's JUST because they're brown, yep

Starting off 2017 with people defending racial profiling as an acceptable practice for law enforcement. For as much praise as European countries get for their laws and law enforcement, this should never be acceptable. I don't care about last year. They have more than a handicap brain and can figure out more proactive ways of mitigating crimes than this.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612354]They stopped 600 people who were brown for no other reason than they were brown and played it off as checking identification. It says so in the article. I guess at this point in Germany anyway no one really cares about the rights of the refugees or migrants. So the means really justify the end here? Would you rather be assumed criminal because of events a year ago than to be treated like any other citizen or resident[/QUOTE] Firstly, they didn't try to hide the use of it. Second, the Refugees and Migrants are getting the best accommodation in the history of conflicts if you ever looked at what refugee centers are typically like. They also already get a huge amount of liberties and laws protecting them that their home countries never offered. Third, The funny part is you saying "because of events a year ago" doesn't help your argument at all. They only caught around 150 suspects out of the 2000 they estimated. So the same people who were willing to commit this crime would probably still be out there and they had to account for that. Not like they got magically integrated either in just a year and found out rape is bad.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612354]They stopped 600 people who were brown for no other reason than they were brown and played it off as checking identification. It says so in the article. I guess at this point in Germany anyway no one really cares about the rights of the refugees or migrants. So the means really justify the end here? Would you rather be assumed criminal because of events a year ago than to be treated like any other citizen or resident[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Schon gegen 21.30 hatten Einsatzkräfte eine Gruppe von rund 1000 Menschen am Hauptbahnhof ins Visier genommen, eingekesselt und zur Rückseite des Bahnhofs am Breslauer Platz geleitet, wo Personalien aufgenommen wurden.[/QUOTE] Nah, they did it because, exactly like I said, they arrived in a group of around 1000 people.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612375]I don't care about last year. [/QUOTE] So you think people shouldn't learn from past events?

[QUOTE=Araknid;51612386]So you think people shouldn't learn from past events?[/QUOTE] Nope better to stick your head in the sand and think happy thoughts.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51612375]They have more than a handicap brain and can figure out more proactive ways of mitigating crimes than this.[/QUOTE] Whats funny is you give them credit for being smart then trash their policies that were effective.

Why the hell is it not a problem for the US to aggressively discriminate based on country of origin when it comes to immigration, but when German law enforcement does the exact same thing to pick up the slack caused by their functionally open borders and retarded government, it's suddenly a problem? Both methods accomplish similar goals, namely the reduction of crime, but one is accepted and one isn't? Sure, the German method is putting the cart before the horse, but why exactly is it morally worse to discriminate against one group of non-citizens than the other? I'm serious. About all I've ever seen people bitch about with regards to US immigration is that it can literally take over a decade. It's a bureaucratic nightmare, yet I've seen very few complaints about the fairness of it. Yeah, we deal with the problem before it manifests into a bigger one, because after all, that's more sensible, but what exactly do you want to German police to do? Just ignore the fact that their countries immigration policy sucks and stand by while a bunch of people get sexually assaulted? They're backed into a corner, and now they get to eat the blame for having limited resources with which to clean up the shitheap left by Angela Merkel.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51612392]Nope better to stick your head in the sand and think happy thoughts.[/QUOTE] Imho a lot of people who say Racial Profiling, for this specific place and time, is bad just don't understand the reasons why it was implemented at this point and time (NYE, Germany.). Furthermore to decry it, or to try to compare it to actual problems with profiling only gives it further encouragement due to how outlandish the two are; You just can't compare NYE with something that happened to innocent people in the USA during WW2, and elsewhere for that matter. Last year there was an unprecedented sexual assault attack taking place in Cologne which had the vast, [B]vast[/B] majority of their makeup being of North African or Arabian descent. The racial profiling used this NYE* was to mitigate if not stop it. Thankfully they did mitigate a lot of it (I wouldn't say stop entirely) and, better yet, actually managed to arrest some suspects of earlier crimes. Is Racial Profiling bad? Yes, in a lot of cases there is. But recently in Germany there's a new demographic who, if not committing more crimes proportionally, are more apparent when one of them commits a crime. Steps were taken to stop this from happening again. Where, if they hadn't, it would likely happen again, if at a smaller or bigger scale. Keeping heads shunted in and saying "Everything will be fine" and opening you, or other people, up to the possibility of further attacks in the same place, time, and event, will only lead to ferment more problems in the future. On a last note: Comparing this to the people who were unjustly imprisoned in WW2, and likely anywhere else where racial profiling happens for that matter, is abhorrently wrong and dull-minded as you're tossing out any evidence that distinguishes the differences between the two. Racial Profiling is wrong (in the vast majority of cases)? Yes. Were there likely people who were of North Africa or Arab who didn't have it in mind to commit crimes, and went to NYE? Yes, of course. *New Years Eve

I'm a brown person myself and I understand [I]why[/I]such policies make sense on the face of it - but at the same time, I should also point out that when you set up a policy along such lines, you're also not able to clearly distinguish between following policy and racial bias when it comes to the officers carrying it out. If you really want your police force to be seen as equally approachable by everyone (which is important if you want said ethnicities to integrate) then it's a good thing that they aren't perceived like the Gestapo either. With policies like this, ethnic minorities would end up preferring to police their own which is very, [I]very[/I] bad. These policies have a fantastic way of biting people in the ass when societal divisions along race lines get formed because folks get to watch one community have nothing but pleasant experiences with cops while the other has to endure constant scrutiny for no other reason except "policy". I've been stopped a fair few times by TSA every time I travel to the US (once every three months or so) and it's always been the same - stop, see passport, observe that my name is not even remotely Muslim and quite blatantly a Hindu one, I get sent along on my merry way. For a colleague who [I]is[/I] Muslim, though? We've established a set pattern now that if he's not at baggage claim and I've taken my bags, I'm not waiting and I head straight to the hotel because it's very likely they've stopped him. He dreads flying to the US now because of this shit.

I gotta say, I used to consider racial profiling as a completely immoral, reprehensible thing like any other systematized racism, but this thread has really got me thinking about the issue. Honestly, a lot of posters posting in favor of it are making some pretty good points to it's pragmatic effectiveness and even more are making valid points about how it's not really racist at all in certain, ideal circumstances. It doesn't help that the posters opposing it don't actually seem to be producing [I]any[/I] valid points, solutions or arguments at all. Most of the time they seem to just appeal to emotion with "I don't care what happened last year, it's [I]racist![/I]" I gotta think some of this over, since a lot of the pro-racial/criminal profiling people are notorious right wingers around here (I don't say this as a bad thing, just to highlight my natural left-leaning difference of opinion) and the idea of racial profiling is ingrained into my brain as a scummy racist tactic, but good going posters on Facepunch. I think you just changed my mind on an issue.

[QUOTE=snookypookums;51612452]when you set up a policy along such lines, you're also not able to clearly distinguish between following policy and racial bias when it comes to the officers carrying it out.[/QUOTE] That is a very valid concern. One of the few. I don't have a good answer, except to say that it shouldn't be a problem, because many of these people should never even [i]make[/i] it into the country.