Cologne cops defend use of racial profiling on New Year's Eve, Chief praises its success - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614617]I actually think this is one of the better debates, and it looks like the other side having run out of worthy alternatives or retorts is now throwing these awkward deathblows about me somehow wallowing in anguish.[/QUOTE] I don't like your argument therefore you haven't presented anything

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51614625]I don't like your argument therefore you haven't presented anything[/QUOTE] No, I just ain't going to take some lame attempt at conceptual bait when you guys can't argue against rational facts of the situation at hand.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614636]No, I just ain't going to take some lame attempt at conceptual bait when you guys can't argue against rational facts of the situation at hand.[/QUOTE] wtf, how is my post bait of any kind? it's an honest question

[URL]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934[/URL] [quote]Responding to claims of "racial profiling," Mathies said "it was not the appearance, but the behavior of the young men." "Cologne police operated with sound judgement," he added.[/quote] Wait a second, I thought that racial profiling worked! Wait, it was only the [I]behaviour[/I] of the "Nafris" there's no shroud to see here. [QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614684]If your father was a murderer does that automatically make you a potential murderer and are you responsible for his crimes?[/QUOTE] holy fuck

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614506]here's a question to the people defending racial profiling: what is your opinion of white guilt?[/QUOTE] If your father was a murderer does that automatically make you a potential murderer and are you responsible for his crimes? If you are talking about things like the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I suggest you look into the Arab Trans-Saharan slave trade which was even greater and way more cruel. So in your argument there should be a collective Arab guilt too for the tens of millions africans enslaved by the muslims and how castration of men was a prominent feature in it? So, tell me, Arab Guilt - what is your opinion on it?

[QUOTE=Phycosymo;51614681][url]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934[/url] Wait a second, I thought that racial profiling worked! Wait, it was only the [I]behaviour[/I] of the "Nafris" there's no shroud to see here.[/QUOTE] You really haven't read this thread at all if you think we only advocated for them to do was search by skin color alone. It's actually a very complex method that places like Ben Gurion use and have studies to back it up.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614697]You really haven't read this thread at all if you think we only advocated for them to do was search by skin color alone. It's actually a very complex method that places like Ben Gurion use and have studies to back it up.[/QUOTE] then i suppose you wont have a problem linking them then

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614684]If your father was a murderer does that automatically make you a potential murderer and are you responsible for his crimes? If you are talking about things like the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I suggest you look into the Arab Trans-Saharan slave trade which was even greater and way more cruel. So in your argument there should be a collective Arab guilt too for the tens of millions africans enslaved by the muslims and how castration of men was a prominent feature in it? So, tell me, Arab Guilt - what is your opinion on it?[/QUOTE] i'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine, because this is nothing but dodging. you've not given me your opinion on white guilt. is it right? is it wrong? is it morally grey with a cherry on top, or is it outright bullshit? edit: i'm assuming that first line is your brand of barely recognizable sarcasm but i can't say for sure

[QUOTE=Phycosymo;51614681][URL]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934[/URL] Wait a second, I thought that racial profiling worked! Wait, it was only the [I]behaviour[/I] of the "Nafris" there's no shroud to see here. [/QUOTE] [quote]In Cologne on Saturday, groups of men were surrounded by police that were almost exclusively people of North African origin.[/quote] [quote]"At the central station we have checked hundreds of Nafris," read an update on the official Twitter account for the Cologne branch of North Rhine-Westphalia state police.[/quote] [quote]Speaking to the press, Police Chief Jürgen Mathies admitted that yes, officers had specifically targeted men who appeared to be of North African extraction to undergo police checks[/quote] [quote]"Hundreds of people were surrounded by police or underwent an ID check, purely on the grounds of their actual or supposed North African origin," Amnesty expert Alexander Bosch said in Berlin on Monday. Bosch stressed, however, that safeguarding public security was one of the most important tasks of the police. Hover, despite succeeding in that task, Cologne police had ignored the job of protecting people from discrimination, he added.[/quote] ????

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[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614752]i'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine, because this is nothing but dodging. you've not given me your opinion on white guilt. is it right? is it wrong? is it morally grey with a cherry on top, or is it outright bullshit? edit: i'm assuming that first line is your brand of barely recognizable sarcasm but i can't say for sure[/QUOTE] How very convenient. Aaaand I'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine, because this is nothing but dodging. you've not given me your opinion on arab guilt. is it right? is it wrong? is it morally grey with a cherry on top, or is it outright bullshit? You know, that argument can go both ways.

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614760]How very convenient. Aaaand I'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine, because this is nothing but dodging. you've not given me your opinion on arab guilt. is it right? is it wrong? is it morally grey with a cherry on top, or is it outright bullshit?[/QUOTE] it's outright bullshit. your turn

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614765]it's outright bullshit. your turn[/QUOTE] Please explain why it is bullshit. Depending on what your reasoning is I could say white guilt is bullshit or not. And do you think white guilt is not bullshit? Does it exist and why?

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51614757]????[/QUOTE] [quote]Wait, it was only the [I]behaviour[/I] of the "Nafris" there's no shroud to see here.[/quote] My point is that the way they are handling the damage control is making their motives incredibly transparent.

[QUOTE=Streecer;51614707]then i suppose you wont have a problem linking them then[/QUOTE] Some interesting stats regarding the perception of the profiling done here: [quote]The study’s findings include: The researchers found the negative feelings toward airport security arose not based on ethnicity of the passenger, but whether the passenger’s bag was opened for further examination and the way in which it was done. Only 9.8% of Israeli Jews were required to open their suitcases for additional searches whereas 40% of the suitcases of Israeli Arabs and non-Israelis were opened for additional searches. The findings suggest that “it is only when the security check becomes visibly intrusive that harm is triggered. This means that the way in which the screening is done, that is, making it as tacit as possible, in a patient and polite manner, could significantly reduce costs.” Israeli Arab passengers felt that they were treated differently by the airport’s security personnel to a greater extent (33%) than Israeli Jewish passengers (13.4%) and foreign passengers (21%). Asked whether airport security checks are justified given Israel’s security situation, 95.4% of Israeli Jews surveyed agreed. By comparison, 80.3% of foreign passengers and 66% of Israeli Arabs agreed. Only 62.4% of Arab passengers reported the treatment during the security checks was fair, compared to 96.1% of Jewish passengers. [b]A majority of the respondents (82%) reported that security checks contributed to their sense of safety with only a small difference between Jewish (88%) and Arab (80%) passengers.[/b] In the Israeli context, the typical profile of a terrorist is a Muslim (88%), Arab (79%), male (87%) and a member of a Palestinian terror organization (91%). This profile comes from an analysis of aviation terror-related data from 1968 to 2010.[/quote] [url]https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-military/ethnic-profiling-airport-screening-lessons-israel-1968-2010[/url] And you can go ahead and just search the history of the airport itself and its impeccable track record. Especially considering the location and target it represents to terrorists. [quote]No flight leaving the airport has ever been hijacked, and there has not been a terrorist attack at the airport since 1972, when three members of the Japanese Red Army killed 26 people and wounded dozens more in a shooting rampage.[/quote] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/28/travel/ben-gurion-worlds-safest-airport-tel-aviv/[/url] Profiling is effective, especially in tandem with other practical security measures, the unfortunate reality is the only way to effectively profile sometimes is by race despite that target profile is of a geographical area like North Africa. Ultimately I hope people take this debate and realize I am not advocating this for the long term. This is a short term situation that can work in ideal situations. The long term goal is to improve integration services so that the cultural division closes.

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614770]Please explain why it is bullshit.[B] Depending on what your reasoning is I could say white guilt is bullshit or not.[/B] And do you think white guilt is not bullshit? Does it exist and why?[/QUOTE] your opinions are defined by other people's opinions? because it's kinda pointless to argue about [I]personal opinions[/I] with someone who doesn't have any

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614785]your opinions are defined by other people's opinions? because it's kinda pointless to argue about [I]personal opinions[/I] with someone who doesn't have any[/QUOTE] No, then I can understand your reasoning and apply the same reasoning to whether white guilt exists or not. I think that if Arab Guilt doesn't exist then so doesn't White Guilt. But if White Guilt Exists then Arab Guilt exists as well. You cannot have one without the other.

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614804]No, then I can [B]understand your reasoning and apply the same reasoning to whether white guilt exists or not. [/B] I think that if Arab Guilt doesn't exist then so doesn't White Guilt. But if White Guilt Exists then Arab Guilt exists as well. You cannot have one without the other.[/QUOTE] so your opinions ARE entirely defined by other people's opinions

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614808]so your opinions ARE entirely defined by other people's opinions[/QUOTE] No. You are missing the point. If we look between the fingers of the atrocities committed by one group and for similar atrocities we guilt another group - then that is wrong. It got all to do with clarity and honesty to human history, one group shouldn't be punished for the same crimes another is pardoned for. Also, do you think white guilt exists and what is your opinion on it and why do you think it exists?

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614819]No. You are missing the point. If we look between the fingers of the atrocities committed by one group and for similar atrocities we guilt another group - then that is wrong. It got all to do with clarity and honesty to human history, one group shouldn't be punished for the same crimes another is pardoned for. Also, do you think white guilt exists and what is your opinion on it and why?[/QUOTE] but the pardon is on your hands. it's based on your judgement. it's not based on mine - or at least it shouldn't be, even though you've made it so. so now that we've established you can't think for yourself: i think white guilt is bullshit, too

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614832]but the pardon is on your hands. it's based on your judgement. it's not based on mine - or at least it shouldn't be, even though you've made it so. so now that we've established you can't think for yourself: i think white guilt is bullshit, too[/QUOTE] You are not reading between the lines. I think it is quite clear on what side of that argument I am personally standing since I was not staunchily defending any of them - and I think from my comment "If your father was a murderer does that automatically make you a potential murderer and are you responsible for his crimes?" it is also quite clear, for a reasonable mind. All I wanted you to understand with this is that you cannot have one without the other.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614832]but the pardon is on your hands. it's based on your judgement. it's not based on mine - or at least it shouldn't be, even though you've made it so. so now that we've established you can't think for yourself: i think white guilt is bullshit, too[/QUOTE] Was your question making a comparison between white guilt and the guilt by association that goes along with police profiling? If so, I think rich colonial whites (from the 18th century) should probably be profiled as being potential slave owners.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614775]Some interesting stats regarding the perception of the profiling done here: [url]https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-military/ethnic-profiling-airport-screening-lessons-israel-1968-2010[/url] And you can go ahead and just search the history of the airport itself and its impeccable track record. Especially considering the location and target it represents to terrorists. [url]http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/28/travel/ben-gurion-worlds-safest-airport-tel-aviv/[/url] Profiling is effective, especially in tandem with other practical security measures, the unfortunate reality is the only way to effectively profile sometimes is by race despite that target profile is of a geographical area like North Africa. Ultimately I hope people take this debate and realize I am not advocating this for the long term. This is a short term situation that can work in ideal situations. The long term goal is to improve integration services so that the cultural division closes.[/QUOTE] how people feel about the system has nothing to do with whether it's effective or not Neither of the things you posted are in regards to what I asked you, you stated that there are studies (from reputable, peer reviewed sources) that show that profiling is effective in preventing crime. What I received instead was your own personal conjuncture based off a CNN article, and another article about public response to profiling, not actually how effective it is at doing what you're claiming it does. Saying "the airport hasn't had an attack" doesn't mean anything when you don't attribute it to anything, is that the sole result of profiling, or something else that you're omitting? So can you actually provide me with a meta analysis, or an actual study that shows that profiling is not just effective, but more effective than traditional, non profiling methods.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;51614845]Was your question making a comparison between white guilt and the guilt by association that goes along with police profiling? If so, I think rich colonial whites should probably be profiled as being potential slave owners.[/QUOTE] finally, someone with the ability to think nah, i wasn't talking about it from a practical standpoint. the angle i'm going for is principle [editline]2nd January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614844]You are not reading between the lines. I think it is quite clear on what side of that argument I am personally standing since I was not staunchily defending any of them - and I think from my comment "If your father was a murderer does that automatically make you a potential murderer and are you responsible for his crimes?" it is also quite clear, for a reasonable mind. All I wanted you to understand with this is that you cannot have one without the other.[/QUOTE] how do you think that compares to this sort of racial profiling? do you not think it's wrong to treat people differently based on things someone of the same ethnicity has done? if it works, does it stop being wrong?

[QUOTE=th0rianite;51614845]Was your question making a comparison between white guilt and the guilt by association that goes along with police profiling? If so, I think rich colonial whites (from the 18th century) should probably be profiled as being potential slave owners.[/QUOTE] Just tooo baad all those rich colonial whites are all dead. Completely different times. [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51614859]finally, someone with the ability to think nah, i wasn't talking about it from a practical standpoint. the angle i'm going for is principle [editline]2nd January 2017[/editline] how do you think that compares to this sort of racial profiling? do you not think it's wrong to treat people differently based on things someone of the same ethnicity has done? if it works, does it stop being wrong?[/QUOTE] If there were not much crime committed by said groups last New Years Eve, then it would have been wrong. But if you look at the statistics of last year, and how efficient it was now then I am sorry to say it is necessary. I would support racial profiling if white Swedes going berserk and raping in thousands if they were doing it in a country in for example africa. Would think that would be wrong if they were racialy profiled like what happened in Germany which was super eficient and avoided a lot of crimes being comitted? Just one thing - they don't.

[QUOTE=Streecer;51614850]how people feel about the system has nothing to do with whether it's effective or not Neither of the things you posted are in regards to what I asked you, you stated that there are studies (from reputable, peer reviewed sources) that show that profiling is effective in preventing crime. What I received instead was your own personal conjuncture based off a CNN article, and another article about public response to profiling, not actually how effective it is at doing what you're claiming it does. Saying "the airport hasn't had an attack" doesn't mean anything when you don't attribute it to anything, is that the sole result of profiling, or something else that you're omitting? So can you actually provide me with a meta analysis, or an actual study that shows that profiling is not just effective, but more effective than traditional, non profiling methods.[/QUOTE] Here's the funny thing about that, there is not much to show compared to other airports when literally no incidents have happened since the 1970's. But for some comparison I offer this from the same study. [quote]Israel’s airport security procedures were first established in 1968 after the hijacking of an El Al aircraft on July 23, 1968. Three members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) hijacked an El Al airplane en route from Rome to Tel Aviv and forced the pilot to land in Algiers. The Algerian President declared that the passengers were prisoners of war and rejected the demand by the International Air Transport Association to release the passengers in spite of an air traffic boycott of Algiers. The event signaled a new era of terrorism (Hoffman, 1999). It was the first global aviation attack motivated by political (namely, terrorist) aims.16 The incident drove Israel to develop terrorist profiles that have been employed ever since and to establish, for the first time, a special department of aviation security.17 The system has proved itself. The last attempt to hijack an Israeli airplane was in 1979. Between 1968 and 1979, Palestinian terror organizations made eleven attempts to hijack Israeli airplanes; all of them failed. In addition to hijacking, terrorists also tried to blow up Israeli airplanes by smuggling bombs in passengers’ baggage. With the exception of two cases, which fortunately ended with no casualties, the system was generally successful in preventing these attacks. In the first case, the explosives malfunctioned; in the second, the special armored protection layer in the baggage compartment of Israeli aircraft blocked their effect. In both cases, young European women, who had fallen in love with Palestinians, were sent by them, alone, to meet their families in Israel. Bombs were planted in their luggage without their knowledge. The women did not fit the profile in use at that time, and did not act nervously because they were unaware of being used as “human bombs.” In light of the above, Israeli airport security procedures have been remarkably effective. No hijacking of an Israeli airplane has succeeded since the system’s implementation, and none of the terror attacks originated in an Israeli airport. On the scale of casualties, a total of seven people were killed and seventy five were wounded in attempts to hijack or bomb Israeli airplanes. [b]For the sake of comparison[/b], between October 1994 and October 2004 alone, 303 people were killed and 1,365 were wounded in terror attacks on buses in Israel (Protecting Public Transportation, Ministry of Domestic Defense, 2002).[/quote] Also it doesn't help that it doesn't seem nobody wants to study this specific point of airport security. [quote]This paper, therefore, provides empirical data from a country that is likely to be the world’s frontier on the topic. Moreover, to the best of our knowledge, there was only one other empirical study in the world carried out in an airport, and that study did not address the issue of profiling and did not randomly select passengers for questioning[/quote] I highly recommend you read the conclusion of the paper instead of me reposting a quotation wall that gets 10 inches taller on here.

I honestly love this fucking argument of "WELL WE ONLY QUESTIONED PEOPLE IF THEY WERE SUSPICIOUS AND IT DIDN'T WORK LAST YEAR" do people honestly think that the police went up to brown people sexually assaulting women and said "well i can't question you i guess!" im not trying to be funny, i'm genuinely curious if people are that delusional and attribute to the lack of mass sexual assault due to people asking "what are you doing here, Nafri?" and not the increased police presence?

[QUOTE=Overhauser;51614327]Does the info that the police made people walk through two seperate gateways depending on their "first impression" which resulted in mostly dark skinned people walking through the "to be controled" gate help you decide? [url]http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Wer-feiern-darf-und-wer-nicht-article19445146.html[/url][/QUOTE] I mean, yes and no. Yes, in that this is exactly the sort of thing that breeds animosity between people and the police, and is ultimately going to lead to problems in the future. No, in that this isn't really evidence that this action was ineffective.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614887]Here's the funny thing about that, there is not much to show compared to other airports when literally no incidents have happened since the 1970's. But for some comparison I offer this from the same study. Also it doesn't help that it doesn't seem nobody wants to study this specific point of airport security. I highly recommend you read the conclusion of the paper instead of me reposting a quotation wall that gets 10 inches taller on here.[/QUOTE] so the answer to my question is no, you have no study, no statistical analysis, no meta-study to show that racial profiling provides any security benefits, just an anecdote from one airport in one place that doesn't even particularly prove your point anyway.

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51614871]If there were not much crime committed by said groups last New Years Eve, then it would have been wrong. But if you look at the statistics of last year, and how efficient it was now then I am sorry to say it is necessary. I would support racial profiling if white Swedes going berserk and raping in thousands if they were doing it in a country in for example africa. Would think that would be wrong if they were racialy profiled like what happened in Germany which was super eficient and avoided a lot of crimes being comitted? Just one thing - they don't.[/QUOTE] the cologne police chief replied to the allegations of racial profiling by saying they did no more than judge people's behavior, which is nothing but routine police work. do you still stand by those statements? do you believe he was just trying to save face?