Cologne cops defend use of racial profiling on New Year's Eve, Chief praises its success - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Streecer;51614938]so the answer to my question is no, you have no study, no statistical analysis, no meta-study to show that racial profiling provides any security benefits, just an anecdote from one airport in one place that doesn't even particularly prove your point anyway.[/QUOTE] Way to totally ignore the fact that it hasn't experienced anything since 1979. Also how about you counter with your own studies showing an alternative that a similar track record that doesn't utilize profiling?

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614954]Way to totally ignore the fact that it hasn't experienced anything since 1979. Also how about you counter with your own studies showing an alternative that a similar track record that doesn't utilize profiling?[/QUOTE] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o41MacRxepQ[/media]

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614954]Way to totally ignore the fact that it hasn't experienced anything since 1979. Also how about you counter with your own studies showing an alternative that a similar track record that doesn't utilize profiling?[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation[/url] also [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation[/url] [QUOTE=Tudd;51614636]No, I just ain't going to take some lame attempt at conceptual bait when you guys can't argue against rational facts of the situation at hand.[/QUOTE] i would create a drinking game where we take a shot every time tudd thinks he's being a rational thinker but i don't want to get banned for telling others to kill themselves

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51614971][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation[/url] Someone do me a list me all the changes that happened compared to last year.[/QUOTE] Wow, I hope you got something better than a correlation is not causation explanation. You do realize how many terrorist attacks Israel experiences in all areas of society, and that maybe, just maaaaybe, this one airport coming out unscathed might tell something about its security methods?

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614954]Way to totally ignore the fact that it hasn't experienced anything since 1979.[/quote] And? Where's your evidence THAT IT'S BECAUSE OF RACIAL PROFILING? The lack of incidents could be attributed to a many number of variables and procedures. There has been [B]no mention of profiling's effectiveness in this airport[/B] you're hoisting up as the golden example, just a survey measuring how people feel about it. [quote]Also how about you counter with your own studies showing an alternative that a similar track record that doesn't utilize profiling?[/QUOTE] The entire point of this thread is people saying that racial profiling works, that it works so well that it should be common place in regular policing. You haven't even provided a study yet, although I'm increasingly getting the impression you don't understand what I even mean when I ask for one. I mean a study with statistics and analysis, not an article you've pulled from CNN or a journalist's media website. If you still can't answer these basic questions I'm done with this conversation, because I'm now convinced you're actually a brick wall that has gained sentience, grown arms and has began to post on internet forums to be as obtuse as possible.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614988]Wow, I hope you got something better than a correlation is not causation explanation. You do realize how many terrorist attacks Israel experiences in all areas of society, and that maybe, just maaaaybe, this one airport coming out unscathed might tell something about security?[/QUOTE] i proved that your logic is shit and you're saying you want me to do something better than me proving your logic is shit ok ill prove your logic is shit even more [quote]All vehicles that arrive at Ben Gurion must first pass through a preliminary security checkpoint where armed guards search the vehicle and exchange a few words with the driver and occupants to gauge their mood and intentions. Plain clothes officers patrol the area outside the terminal building, assisted by sophisticated hidden surveillance cameras which operate around the clock. Armed security personnel patrol the terminal and keep a close eye on people entering the terminal building. If any persons seem suspicious or anxious, security personnel will approach them and engage them in conversation in an effort to gauge their intentions and mood. Vehicles are subject to a weight sensor, a trunk x-ray and an undercarriage scan. Departing passengers are questioned by highly trained security agents before they reach the check-in counter. These interviews could last as little as one minute or as long as an hour, based on such factors as age, race, religion and destination. Unlike in many western airports, passengers are not required to remove their shoes while passing through physical screening processes. Furthermore, there are no sophisticated x-ray machines; rather, traditional metal detectors are still in operation. Raphael Ron, a former director of security at Ben Gurion for 5 years, calls the passenger-oriented security system more focused on the ‘human factor’, based on the assumption that terrorist attacks are carried out by people who can be found and have been stopped through the use of this simple but effective security methodology. That said, there is a great array of equipment and technology available for the authorities to help combat any potential terrorist attacks. For example, checked baggage is put in a pressure chamber to trigger any possible explosive devices and robots patrol the airport grounds.[/quote] to say that "WOW ISRAEL DISCRIMINATES, AND THEIR AIRPORT SECURITY IS THE BEST. MAYBE WE SHOULD START DISCRIMINATING TOO" is cherrypicking at best [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/what-israeli-airport-secu_b_4978149.html[/url]

I think there is a pretty interesting thing going on in this thread where the flagdogs of the people so vehemently criticizing the entire thing are for the most part North-American whereas people doing as little as pointing out pragmatism/practicality often have a European flagdog. Now I'm not going to draw absolute conclusions here but I have a faint feeling that there may be a pretty gigantic gap in judgement between the people who are living in the ever increasing political shitstorm that is Europe and the ones who are living overseas in a country that hasn't even been concerned with the whole matter at hand to begin with. It's nice to talk about idealism and take on a big shining Manichean standpoint on everything when your nation doesn't have to deal with pushing bodies into graves due to repeated terrrorist attacks and deal with a population that's growing more and more nervous as the situation seems to be getting worse and worse. Furthermore whenever the point is brought up that this kind of raw, inelegant pragmatism is necessary in this sort of crisis situation, the retort always seems to just be vague statements about how "it's wrong though" or some fallacies regarding slippery slopes and bad comparisons or just going full-on strawman and implying that defending a practical decision equals to adopting full-on discriminatory policies nationwide, all year round. I'm honestly surprised people haven't made more comparisons to shit like the Apartheid because that'd be exactly what I'd expect with how low those arguments are flying anyway.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51614988]Wow, I hope you got something better than a correlation is not causation explanation. You do realize how many terrorist attacks Israel experiences in all areas of society, and that maybe, just maaaaybe, this one airport coming out unscathed might tell something about its security methods?[/QUOTE] I mean, yeah, maybe. It is a possibility. It's also technically possible that the pyramids were built by aliens. That isn't an argument in favor of it being the case.

This all reminds me of the ~outrage~ on social media how the cops are racist nazis because they asked ID's of black women in places where they were looking for north american prostitutes that are illegally in the country.

[QUOTE=gukki;51615015]This all reminds me of the ~outrage~ on social media how the cops are racist nazis because they asked ID's of black women in places where they were looking for north american prostitutes that are illegally in the country.[/QUOTE] that's an entirely different situation

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51615019]that's an entirely different situation[/QUOTE] How? People cried for weeks about the "racial profiling" when it happened

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51614916]I honestly love this fucking argument of "WELL WE ONLY QUESTIONED PEOPLE IF THEY WERE SUSPICIOUS AND IT DIDN'T WORK LAST YEAR" [B] do people honestly think that the police went up to brown people sexually assaulting women and said "well i can't question you i guess!"[/B] im not trying to be funny, i'm genuinely curious if people are that delusional and attribute to the lack of mass sexual assault due to people asking "what are you doing here, Nafri?" and not the increased police presence?[/QUOTE] You do realize there have been several serious accusations over multiple European police and news agencies of covering up and refusing to take reports on immigrant crime right? Remember how it took months for the extent of last years events to fully come out? When that kind of shit is on the table, do you actually expect people to believe that they didn't actively try to ignore the problem last year?

[QUOTE=gukki;51615085]How? People cried for weeks about the "racial profiling" when it happened[/QUOTE] I might have misread your post. "Looking for North African (I'm assuming you meant north african)" implied that it was known that there were a bunch of prostitutes who are wanted by whatever police organization you were referring to. [editline]2nd January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zephyrs;51615150]You do realize there have been several serious accusations accusing multiple European police and news agencies of covering up and refusing to take reports on immigrant crime right? Remember how it took months for the extent of last years events to fully come out? When that kind of shit is on the table, do you actually expect people to believe that they didn't actively try to ignore the problem last year?[/QUOTE] Can I have some citations on that? It sounds believable but I rather know than believe.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51615156]I might have misread your post. "Looking for North African (I'm assuming you meant north african)" implied that it was known that there were a bunch of prostitutes who are wanted by whatever police organization you were referring to. [editline]2nd January 2017[/editline] Can I have some citations on that? It sounds believable but I rather know than believe.[/QUOTE] There have been internal mails leaked where officials asked people to refrain from the term "rape" . This is what people usually cite. What they often forget is that we have a very serious juristic distinction between rape and sexual assault and police are expected to not prejudge, even in press releases. At the same time German law defines insertion of any kind as rape, fingers too. And it is. I can only speculate that some people, for whatever reason, want to avoid using the term because when reported in the media people do imagine penis penetration. Right after the NYE the police released several press releases that described the situations plain out wrong. Guess who doesn't have a job anymore. At the same time, 2nd january, there were other police reports that described the situation very accurately. [url]http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3215530[/url] But noone cared for those.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51615156]Can I have some citations on that? It sounds believable but I rather know than believe.[/QUOTE] There were several instances of Sweden in particular doing this that made it onto SH. The stuff about NYE really blew up after a month or two, and a lot of the extremely leftist posters on FP were losing their fucking minds when the proof started rolling in, and they were faced with the prospect of trying to either justify it or admit their errors. Those threads were trash heaps, and that's putting it charitably. I'm out the door in less than 5, so I can't dig up the actual sources right now, but that's where I'd start looking.

While I don't necessarily agree with the practice, I can completely understand why it's done. It's like when teenagers get kicked out of a store because the store owner thinks that they might steal something since teenagers are a group that's more likely to shoplift items. I've been kicked out of places before when I was a teenager, for seemingly no reason other than that I was a teenager, and I can completely understand why. If an ethnic group is statistically more likely to commit crimes, then of course the police are going to be keeping a closer eye on them. It's just common sense. The police are there to protect the safety of the public, not to turn a blind eye because they might be perceived as racist for racial profiling.

Just posting a new update from DW. [quote]Green party co-chair Simone Peter said the tighter security in the city clearly limited violence and attacks during this year's celebrations - but she questioned the legality of police tactics. "It raises the question of proportionality and legality when around 1,000 people were checked and partially detained, based on their appearance alone," Peter told local German paper "Rheinische Post." 'Absurd debate' On Germany's political stage, however, Peter's criticism of Cologne's police has received little support, with many politicians praising authorities on Monday. Vice Chancellor and Social Democrats (SPD) leader Sigmar Gabriel said the allegations of "racial profiling" were "an absurd and almost crazy debate." CDU General Secretary Peter Tauber said it was hard to believe that the Greens were criticizing the preventive and successful action of the Cologne police as racist. "This is absurd and unmasks once more the Green multiculturalism and complete lack of reality," he told the Funke media group. Christopher Lauer, a former politician with the protest Pirate party and the SPD, described the term as a "sweeping prejudice against an entire group of people based on their appearance." Vice Chancellor Gabriel stood by police chief Mathies, however, saying that [b]"police have done nothing but describe the reality with their profile 'Nafris / North Africans.'"[/b] Later on Monday, however, some Green party members distanced themselves from Peters' comments. Greens chairwoman Katrin Göring-Eckardt told "Ruhrnachrichten" that the police were quick and preventive.[/quote] [url]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934[/url] Just going to say that if most of the German parties and even the some of the Green party themselves are in favor for it, it only looks like righteous moral busybodies are the ones complaining.

[quote]This is absurd and unmasks once more the Green multiculturalism and complete lack of reality,[/quote] Hey look, someone actually calling out fringe leftist ideals for the head in the sand denialism they are. Maybe there's some hope for Europe yet.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51616177]Just posting a new update from DW. [url]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934[/url] Just going to say that if most of the German parties and even the some of the Green party themselves are in favor for it, it only looks like righteous moral busybodies are the ones complaining.[/QUOTE] I'll happily be a righteous moral busybody any day of the week, then.

Americans don't like racially profiling brown people. It's racist. It's much more effective to go to brown people countries and just murder all the brown people with bombs and bullets.

[QUOTE=V12US;51616774]Americans don't like racially profiling brown people. It's racist. It's much more effective to go to brown people countries and just murder all the brown people with bombs and bullets.[/QUOTE] who says this

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51616779]who says this[/QUOTE] I think it's just a satire/joke about the Middle East invasion

To defend racial profiling is simply not understanding its consequences or how policing works (or should work, rather). It is a waste of resources that could have been dedicated to policing properly and not being lazy. Most all of you have conveniently ignored the vastly increased police presence, but lets gloss over that. 'Racial Profiling works', you know what else works? Investigating suspicious activity and not alienating and incriminating a race of people just because someone else of that colour did something bad. Do you get it yet, youre again assuming that the way someone looks is good indicator of their intentions. Isn't that crazy? And what kind of retort is 'well if i was from said group id be happy to be profiled and help the police'? Well, being (probably) a white male and not part of said discriminated group you really have no idea what it feels like. Imagine if, in the US, all pasty white guys that looked pretty shy had to be stopped if trying to enter a populated area. Because, you know, people that look like that have shot a lot of people before and stuff. Is short term ease and lazy policing worth long term alienation, destruction of relationships with police (as seen in the US, go outside) and furthering of racial divides? no.

Without controlling for any other factors, how can once cite the racial profiling for the key change in reducing crime rates? I'm sure more than just that has changed in a year to year basis.

Nobody can. This year they had over 1700 Policemen patroling the area as opposed to 143 last year

Well you could always have the cops sugarcoat for y'all where they still hassle people for papers and break up groups, but they don't say they use profiling based by race. But I can guarantee it that the end result would have been the same unless you think cops shouldn't have intervened at all. Also obviously more police will secure an area better by brute numbers alone, but I'm willing to bet German police don't typically advocate for anything racial base unless they had to use it. Not to mention they actually questioned/arrested by all reports around 700 people of this one profile. You know that cops use profiling all the time? Like Bikers and different age groups (typically younger) aswell as behavior. This time the profile based on [b]overwhelming[/b] statistics last year was people from North Africa, and instead of a motorcycle or age to find a commonality for the region they went with race and behavior, because it is probably the only factor they could rely on

[QUOTE=Tudd;51617297]Well you could always have the cops sugarcoat for y'all where they still hassle people for papers and break up groups, but they don't say they use profiling based by race. But I can guarantee it that the end result would have been the same unless you think cops shouldn't have intervened at all. Also obviously more police will secure an area better by brute numbers alone, but I'm willing to bet German police don't typically advocate for anything racial base unless they had to use it. Not to mention they actually questioned/arrested by all reports around 700 people of this one profile. You know that cops use profiling all the time? Like Bikers and different age groups (typically younger) aswell as behavior. This time the profile based on [b]overwhelming[/b] statistics last year was people from North Africa, and instead of a motorcycle or age to find a commonality for the region they went with race and behavior, because it is probably the only factor they could rely on[/QUOTE] What's your bet?

I think if you can stop a large percentage of crime by relying more heavily on a criminal profile, then that should be done. However, it is important to remember that to heavy of a reliance on that for too long only makes law enforcement more malleable to criminals who do not fit that targeted profile. There is no replacement for good detective work / police work when trying to find true culprits.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51617297]Well you could always have the cops sugarcoat for y'all where they still hassle people for papers and break up groups, but they don't say they use profiling based by race. But I can guarantee it that the end result would have been the same unless you think cops shouldn't have intervened at all. Also obviously more police will secure an area better by brute numbers alone, but I'm willing to bet German police don't typically advocate for anything racial base unless they had to use it. Not to mention they actually questioned/arrested by all reports around 700 people of this one profile. You know that cops use profiling all the time? Like Bikers and different age groups (typically younger) aswell as behavior. This time the profile based on [B]overwhelming[/B] statistics last year was people from North Africa, and instead of a motorcycle or age to find a commonality for the region they went with race and behavior, because it is probably the only factor they could rely on[/QUOTE] Out of 600 people only 27 questioned were arrested. Keep in mind they weren't questioned about sexual assaults, they were stopped in groups and questioned about identity papers at checkpoints looking specifically for North Africans.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51617422] Age, Gender, and Citizenship status in addition to Country of Origin, also Behavior were all used on NYE. Dont ignore those.[/QUOTE] I'm not, but race is the only quality that anyone has a problem with on this thread at the moment.