Cologne cops defend use of racial profiling on New Year's Eve, Chief praises its success - Polidicks

I'm very conflicted over this. On one hand obviously racial profiling is a bad thing, but where does one draw the line exactly? As a teenager, wearing a hoodie and going out at night, I used to get stopped by police randomly all the time. I fit the profile of a suspicious teenager, so hence I was asked to produce documents more often. It seems that what happened in Cologne is not too different. Or at least, if the latter is wrong, then surely, so is the former. How does one put the line between the two, and is limiting the police's ability to do its work a good thing? Is police presence the only thing that made the difference, or was it police being engaged and showing their presence that helped? Many questions, that I don't feel qualified to answer.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51617445]What you also need to acknowledge is that if race were the sole indicator it would be a problem. Race is only helpful as a side attribute. Racial profiling is a problem when Race alone is regarded as a good enough reason for suspicion. I'd say that is the only time you can name it Racial profiling in the first place. US TSA detains people without any other indicator, even when they are travelling with people of other ethnicities and have good reasons or otherwise perfect profiles, whereas Colonge police didnt mess with elderly Arabs, or individual Arabs, or similar - you get the point.[/QUOTE] I am more than happy that race wasn't the only factor is all I can say. It's not what I want to have to use, but it is a reality for this situation.

"North African" is not a race

Oh don't get me wrong I am not arguing that it wasn't racist. accordign to reports on the site they took out every male that had dark skin and dark hair and looked basically "Arabic" and afterwards pretended that they only went for "people of a certain phenotype" Notice how even the police themselves are using this biological word and thus basically admitting that they went for biological factors rather than social or ethnic ones [url]http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/silvester-kontrollen-in-koeln-was-bitteschoen-ist-ein-nafri-a-1128172.html[/url] Essentially classifying people into social categories by genetic criteria.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51616947]To defend racial profiling is simply not understanding its consequences or how policing works (or should work, rather). It is a waste of resources that could have been dedicated to policing properly and not being lazy. Most all of you have conveniently ignored the vastly increased police presence, but lets gloss over that. 'Racial Profiling works', you know what else works? Investigating suspicious activity and not alienating and incriminating a race of people just because someone else of that colour did something bad. Do you get it yet, youre again assuming that the way someone looks is good indicator of their intentions. Isn't that crazy? And what kind of retort is 'well if i was from said group id be happy to be profiled and help the police'? Well, being (probably) a white male and not part of said discriminated group you really have no idea what it feels like. Imagine if, in the US, all pasty white guys that looked pretty shy had to be stopped if trying to enter a populated area. Because, you know, people that look like that have shot a lot of people before and stuff. Is short term ease and lazy policing worth long term alienation, destruction of relationships with police (as seen in the US, go outside) and furthering of racial divides? no.[/QUOTE] But if you are a law abiding citizen of any denomination why would you have issues with the police preventing crime? If I was living in Germany and the British were proven to be committing sex crimes in their droves, I would be more than happy for the police to use racial profiling if it stopped these crimes from happening, I consider the prevention of mass raping over the hurt feelings of any people regardless of their race. The only people that have been genuinely inconvenienced here are rapists.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51618040]But if you are a law abiding citizen of any denomination why would you have issues with the police preventing crime? If I was living in Germany and the British were proven to be committing sex crimes in their droves, I would be more than happy for the police to use racial profiling if it stopped these crimes from happening, I consider the prevention of mass raping over the hurt feelings of any people regardless of their race. The only people that have been genuinely inconvenienced here are rapists.[/QUOTE] Correct me if I am wrong but in my world you actually have to rape someone to be a rapist, is that correct?

[QUOTE=Overhauser;51618052]Correct me if I am wrong but in my world you actually have to rape someone to be a rapist, is that correct?[/QUOTE] Contrary but OK potential rapists, but nice to see you dealing with the real issues of the post, good job my grammar wasn't too bad.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51618040]But if you are a law abiding citizen of any denomination why would you have issues with the police preventing crime? If I was living in Germany and the British were proven to be committing sex crimes in their droves, I would be more than happy for the police to use racial profiling if it stopped these crimes from happening, I consider the prevention of mass raping over the hurt feelings of any people regardless of their race. The only people that have been genuinely inconvenienced here are rapists.[/QUOTE] 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' is a dangerous precedent that enables oppression, erosion of privacy and basic civil liberties. security should not be based on assumptions.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51621502]'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' is a dangerous precedent that enables oppression, erosion of privacy and basic civil liberties. security should not be based on assumptions.[/QUOTE] It is not as black and white as you think. Like all things in life, you have to balance the pros and the cons. Just because they look with more suspicion to people who come from unstable countries, doesn't mean it is suddenly oppressing them. Not having any suspicions is why we have this problem at all. When people get entry simply by "losing" their papers to make it difficult to do background checks, what else can there be done to minimize the damage against the population? Germany does a lot to try to integrate these people. Language courses, free housing and money to survive, getting rid of minimum wage for refugee workers to encourage employers to hire them (don't get me started on how stupid this is) and there are still problems with these people. What would be your alternative? Just turning a blind eye and let more crimes occur? [editline]4th January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51617566]Sometimes semantics matter, sometimes they dont. Every incident is different. Arguing whether a Tomato is a fruit or not might seem meaningless, but it does matter if a government agency treats fruits and vegetables differently, for example. But this time, this is bullseye meaningless. Ethnicities and nationalities are protected classes just like races and genders[/QUOTE] If people from the area of north africa are not allowed to be met with more suspicion by the police as this group tends to be more prone to criminal activities, what about people that come from the area where ISIS is at home? Are they also a protected class? If not, why not?

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51621613] Germany does a lot to try to integrate these people. Language courses, free housing and money to survive, getting rid of minimum wage for refugee workers to encourage employers to hire them (don't get me started on how stupid this is) and there are still problems with these people. What would be your alternative? Just turning a blind eye and let more crimes occur?[/quote] My alternative would be policing properly as suggested in my post a couple up from that one. Because it's certainly effective, unlike racial profiling. So effective in fact that when multiple systems of racial profiling yielded worsened results, reverting back to proper techniques ended up improving the situation. I can understand the logic but just do some research and look at the statistics because it has been proven time and time again racial profiling does not work and only makes things worse.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51621654]My alternative would be policing properly as suggested in my post a couple up from that one. Because it's certainly effective, unlike racial profiling. So effective in fact that when multiple systems of racial profiling yielded worsened results, reverting back to proper techniques ended up improving the situation. I can understand the logic but just do some research and look at the statistics because it has been proven time and time again racial profiling does not work and only makes things worse.[/QUOTE] What do you understand under racial profiling? Why do you think what I am talking about is racial profiling?

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51621829]What do you understand under racial profiling? Why do you think what I am talking about is racial profiling?[/QUOTE] Because you quoted me, arguing about racial profiling? Alternatives to what then?

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51621654]My alternative would be policing properly as suggested in my post a couple up from that one. Because it's certainly effective, unlike racial profiling. So effective in fact that when multiple systems of racial profiling yielded worsened results, reverting back to proper techniques ended up improving the situation. I can understand the logic but just do some research and look at the statistics because it has been proven time and time again racial profiling does not work and only makes things worse.[/QUOTE] You are speaking a load of shit like you didn't read the article. Profiling is effective is what you will find from studies and is the most basic of police techniques. The problem is that the profiling this time had to use a racial component, but instead you just say they should "police properly" which means specifically nothing.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51622119]You are speaking a load of shit like you didn't read the article. Profiling is effective is what you will find from studies and is the most basic of police techniques. The problem is that the profiling this time had to use a racial component, but instead you just say they should "police properly" which means specifically nothing.[/QUOTE] Nowhere did I say profiling is ineffective. I'm arguing that RACIAL profiling is ineffective and detrimental to everyone in the long term. Clearly you have misunderstood and maybe I wasn't clear but please do respond to what I'm actually talking about. [editline]4th January 2017[/editline] And to 'police properly' means not using previously discredited techniques. [editline]4th January 2017[/editline] So to clean up finally in case you decide to respond - I posted about how racial profiling is ineffective after reading a few pages of people defending it. As someone said on the first page, there is a difference between profiling people based on the colour of their skin and profiling people travelling from regions of instability. See my first post for arguments pertaining to RACIAL profiling.

Generalising that racial profiling isn't effective is kinda pointless when it clearly was effective in this instance.

That and he hasn't even provided any sources that he keeps saying exist. That and we're now on some weird semantics arguement about how the profile was based on regions and not race, but had to use a racial component, and how purely racial profiling is bad. Which is no shit.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51622702]Generalising that racial profiling isn't effective is kinda pointless when it clearly was effective in this instance.[/QUOTE] Lots of people here dealing in absolutes for the sake of idealism when the practical nature of things makes idealism a very dangerous path to tread. The last time the police decided to do little in order to not offend anyone they let a thousand people march on Cologne and commit crimes unchecked with not enough police forces deployed to stop them. Nations like Sweden and Germany have received a lot of flak for not showing enough practical sense in reaction to the migrant crisis and letting too much slide because it was the "moral thing to do" to let people come in and not scrutinize them because it may offend some people or make them uncomfortable/unwanted/oppressed.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51622702]Generalising that racial profiling isn't effective is kinda pointless when it clearly was effective in this instance.[/QUOTE] Semantics? Well yes when you didn't read my post properly of course I'm inclined to point it out. For one, this wasn't really racial profiling, which is kinda irrelevant as I was replying to those defending racial profiling as a legitimate technique. For two the world isn't as simple as catching the person and that's that. There are long term consequences to bad choices. Some sources seeing as you are so certain that they don't exist: [URL]http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html[/URL] (Look to section B) [URL]http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=facpub[/URL] (this one focuses on the largest program of racial profiling ever implemented) [URL]http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/paying-price-human-cost-racial-profiling/racial-profiling-doesnt-work[/URL] There are heaps upon heaps more but of course your opinions transcend fact.

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51621613]It is not as black and white as you think. Like all things in life, you have to balance the pros and the cons.[/quote] That's essentially what he said. It provides security and enables oppression as well as destroys privacy and liberties. [quote]Just because they look with more suspicion to people who come from unstable countries, doesn't mean it is suddenly oppressing them.[/quote] [i]Noun oppression ‎(countable and uncountable, plural oppressions) The exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or [b]unjust[/b] manner.[/i] [quote]Not having any suspicions is why we have this problem at all. When people get entry simply by "losing" their papers to make it difficult to do background checks, what else can there be done to minimize the damage against the population?[/quote] This is an issue with the immigration policies, not the immigrants. [quote]If people from the area of north africa are not allowed to be met with more suspicion by the police as this group tends to be more prone to criminal activities, what about people that come from the area where ISIS is at home? Are they also a protected class? If not, why not?[/QUOTE] It's perfectly reasonable to place more suspicion on the people coming from wartorn countries. It is [b]not[/b] reasonable by any means to suspect a person of a crime merely because of their race.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51622865]Semantics? Well yes when you didn't read my post properly of course I'm inclined to point it out. For one, this wasn't really racial profiling, which is kinda irrelevant as I was replying to those defending racial profiling as a legitimate technique. For two the world isn't as simple as catching the person and that's that. There are long term consequences to bad choices. Some sources seeing as you are so certain that they don't exist: [URL]http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html[/URL] (Look to section B) [URL]http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=facpub[/URL] (this one focuses on the largest program of racial profiling ever implemented) [URL]http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/paying-price-human-cost-racial-profiling/racial-profiling-doesnt-work[/URL] There are heaps upon heaps more but of course your opinions transcend fact.[/QUOTE] These are all American sources only, nonetheless transcending facts is exactly what you are doing whilst denying that the policing methods used by the cops in Cologne resulted in fewer rapes therefore achieved their aims. [QUOTE=Paramud;51622867] It's perfectly reasonable to place more suspicion on the people coming from wartorn countries. It is [b]not[/b] reasonable by any means to suspect a person of a crime merely because of their race.[/QUOTE] No and in this instance nobody did, they based their suspicions on last years events.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51622971]These are all American sources only, nonetheless transcending facts is exactly what you are doing whilst denying that the policing methods used by the cops in Cologne resulted in fewer rapes therefore achieved their aims. No and in this instance nobody did, they based their suspicions on last years events.[/QUOTE] Please respond to the main points I make instead of skirting them as usual. Rapes could have been prevented without assuming criminal activity based on skin colour. Do you disagree with that?

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51622702]Generalising that racial profiling isn't effective is kinda pointless when it clearly was effective in this instance.[/QUOTE] It clearly wasn't. Only a third of those stopped had action taken against them. What worked is A, time, and B, officer presence. You can't give the credit to all bullshit tactic when there was more sane and effective things going on

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51622994]It clearly wasn't. Only a third of those stopped had action taken against them. What worked is A, time, and B, officer presence. You can't give the credit to all bullshit tactic when there was more sane and effective things going on[/QUOTE] And if racial profiling wasn't used, it could very well have been that some of these criminals wouldn't have been stopped.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51622985]Please respond to the main points I make instead of skirting them as usual. Rapes could have been prevented without assuming criminal activity based on skin colour. Do you disagree with that?[/QUOTE] I have made my point quite clearly on several occasions in this thread. All of your pointless links prove nothing. The methods used in this instance worked, some people got offended but nobody got raped, it's enough of a payoff. People have a different opinion to you and they are welcome to them, do you agree with that? [editline]4th January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Code3Response;51622994]It clearly wasn't. Only a third of those stopped had action taken against them. What worked is A, time, and B, officer presence. You can't give the credit to all bullshit tactic when there was more sane and effective things going on[/QUOTE] You can't claim they were bullshit tactics just because you don't like them.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51623157] You can't claim they were bullshit tactics just because you don't like them.[/QUOTE] Nothing says it alone was effective at stopping any crimes. The ID requirement, officer presence, and time in the country all combine for a more effective policing than stopping brown people because last year there was brown people causing problems

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51623157]I have made my point quite clearly on several occasions in this thread. All of your pointless links prove nothing. The methods used in this instance worked, some people got offended but nobody got raped, it's enough of a payoff. People have a different opinion to you and they are welcome to them, do you agree with that? [editline]4th January 2017[/editline] You can't claim they were bullshit tactics just because you don't like them.[/QUOTE] But people have posted over and over why it wasn't the racial profiling that led to the decrease in crime, no? I have no problem with opinions if they are backed up with fact.

[QUOTE=Bertie;51623006]And if racial profiling wasn't used, it could very well have been that some of these criminals wouldn't have been stopped.[/QUOTE] And as long as you only have this one instance with no control to compare to, you can't conclusively say it worked. And meanwhile you're parading this around as proof that racial profiling single-handedly stopped all these crimes, ignoring major factors like more police men be there.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;51623317]But people have posted over and over why it wasn't the racial profiling that led to the decrease in crime, no? I have no problem with opinions if they are backed up with fact.[/QUOTE] Oh, posts here that you agree with are facts, I stand corrected.

Racial profiling sets an incredibly dangerous precedent and will only harm relations and the social climate of the society it takes place in the long run. Treating an entire class of people as second-rate citizens and giving them unfair treatment in law and policing based on their race isn't going to help them become integrated into their surroundings. It's only going to alienate them and breed resentment to their oppressors. People should realize that one of the reasons for the radicalization of refugees and migrants is that they're often segregated into small communities of like-minded individuals who are all subjected to the same kinds of alienation from the country and institutions that they're trying to seek refuge from.

[QUOTE=Bertie;51623006]And if racial profiling wasn't used, it could very well have been that some of these criminals wouldn't have been stopped.[/QUOTE] If the police had put every single African behind bars, on the basis that it helped stop a few criminals, would you still be defending it? [editline]oh hamburgers[/editline] [QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51622971]No and in this instance nobody did, they based their suspicions on last years events.[/QUOTE] [quote]Speaking to the press, Police Chief Jürgen Mathies admitted that yes, officers had specifically targeted men who appeared to be of North African extraction to undergo police checks[/quote]