Labour MP blames anti-smacking law for London riots
138 replies, posted
[QUOTE=David29;34476229]Coming from the person who thinks the whole argument here is about using physical punishment as a replacement.
Because it doesn't work like that, maybe?[/QUOTE]
what do you mean it doesn't work like that? children do what they see adults do, it's called learning. child see's adult using violence, child learns that violence is a viable option. you seem to think that if someone gets hurt they will only think "OK well, better not do that again cause i'll get hurt! violence is literally only a consequence of this single wrongdoing!" when human brains are more complex than that.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34476293]what do you mean it doesn't work like that? children do what they see adults do, it's called learning. child see's adult using violence, child learns that violence is a viable option. you seem to think that if someone gets hurt they will only think "OK well, better not do that again cause i'll get hurt! violence is literally only a consequence of this single wrongdoing!" when human brains are more complex than that.[/QUOTE]
Because when there are many examples, including myself, that haven't done that then it clearly "doesn't work like that", does it? Unless you are saying I some sort of defect in humanity because I learned the difference between a slap on the wrist for doing something wrong and beating someone up to exert my authority (NB I have never hit anyone. Ever.)?
And then there is this: [url]http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/thebigdebate/436704/does-smacking-really-help-raise-a-successful-child.html[/url]
Now, I admit, I said earlier that I don't accept studies - so I will play fair game. Ignore the studies. Hell, even ignore the actual article. Scroll down to the bottom and read the comments. Notice how 90% of them support smacking, and come from women who have much better maternal instincts than either of us?
I found this comment most interesting:
[i]"I never been smacked as a child, I became disrespectful to all rules and adults. It was a very hard lesson for me to learn that other individuals deserve my repect while growing up. I had no friends and my brothers hated me till I was 14. [b]I wish i was told what's wrong and right from a early age.[/b]
Now I have a 2yr old and because my husband insisting "no hitting" policy, we never lay a hand on our little boy,[b] I have to admit that I'm fiding it very hard to communicate with my boy as he now knows that he will never get punished whatever he does[/b], therefore he hits me whenever he fells angry, hungry or even just fancy that! I think smacking is ok if you know when to stop, which most of people might not be able to when on rage.
Comment by Kat on January 15 17:02"[/i]
[QUOTE=Vasili;34463220]Might does not make right. Hitting a child doesn't teach him/her right or wrong.[/QUOTE]
Oh, boy, my parents enjoyed thinking otherwise.
[QUOTE=David29;34476379]Because when there are many examples, including myself, that haven't done that then it clearly "doesn't work like that", does it? Unless you are saying I some sort of defect in humanity because I learned the difference between a slap on the wrist for doing something wrong and beating someone up to exert my authority (NB I have never hit anyone. Ever.)?
And then there is this: [url]http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/thebigdebate/436704/does-smacking-really-help-raise-a-successful-child.html[/url]
Now, I admit, I said earlier that I don't accept studies - so I will play fair game. Ignore the studies. Hell, even ignore the actual article. Scroll down to the bottom and read the comments. Notice how 90% of them support smacking, and come from women who have much better maternal instincts than either of us?
I found this comment most interesting:
[i]"I never been smacked as a child, I became disrespectful to all rules and adults. It was a very hard lesson for me to learn that other individuals deserve my repect while growing up. I had no friends and my brothers hated me till I was 14. [b]I wish i was told what's wrong and right from a early age.[/b]
Now I have a 2yr old and because my husband insisting "no hitting" policy, we never lay a hand on our little boy,[b] I have to admit that I'm fiding it very hard to communicate with my boy as he now knows that he will never get punished whatever he does[/b], therefore he hits me whenever he fells angry, hungry or even just fancy that! I think smacking is ok if you know when to stop, which most of people might not be able to when on rage.
Comment by Kat on January 15 17:02"[/i][/QUOTE]
how come you use yourself as an example yet completely ignore my example of myself, as having had physical punishment (and no, i'm not talking about beatings) and still turning out bad & disrespectful? and my friends who never had any sort of physical punishment in their lives becoming gainfully employed or going to uni?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34476615]how come you use yourself as an example yet completely ignore my example of myself, as having had physical punishment (and no, i'm not talking about beatings) and still turning out bad & disrespectful? and my friends who never had any sort of physical punishment in their lives becoming gainfully employed or going to uni?[/QUOTE]
Er, because my example was relevant at the time? You were saying that a child will always learn from an adult who uses physical punishment that it is ok to hit people. I was using myself as an example to disprove what you were saying. How would it make even the slightest sense to use your example to back-up my argument in this context?
[QUOTE=David29;34476669]Er, because my example was relevant at the time? You were saying that a child will always learn from an adult who uses physical punishment that it is ok to hit people. I was using myself as an example to disprove what you were saying. How would it make even the slightest sense to use your example to back-up my argument in this context?[/QUOTE]
i wasn't saying they always would. i'm saying that it's quite possible, as children learn from seeing what adults do. and i thought that you were using yourself as an example of how people that get corporal punishment turn out fine.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34476680][b]i wasn't saying they always would.[/b] i'm saying that it's quite possible, as children learn from seeing what adults do. and i thought that you were using yourself as an example of how people that get corporal punishment turn out fine.[/QUOTE]
[Quote][b]what do you mean it doesn't work like that? children do what they see adults do,[/b] it's called learning. child see's adult using violence, child learns that violence is a viable option. you seem to think that if someone gets hurt they will only think "OK well, better not do that again cause i'll get hurt! violence is literally only a consequence of this single wrongdoing!" when human brains are more complex than that."[/Quote]
but basically, for me what it comes down to, is that if you hit your kid, you're just taking the easy way out rather than using harder, yet less physical means to raise them & teach them! and in my opinion that makes you a bad parent! adults are meant to protect and nurture children, not hit them.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
yeah ok, i don't really care, if you hit your kid you're a shit parent. if you support hitting children you're a shit person.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34476704]but basically, for me what it comes down to, is that if you hit your kid, you're just taking the easy way out rather than using harder, yet less physical means to raise them & teach them! and in my opinion that makes you a bad parent! adults are meant to protect and nurture children, not hit them.[/QUOTE]
So, again, you aren't paying attention to anything I am saying. To reiterate what I said earlier to someone else:
"You are making the dangerous mistake of thinking it would be used as regular punishment, and not as a last resort."
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34476704]yeah ok, i don't really care, if you hit your kid you're a shit parent. if you support hitting children you're a shit person.[/QUOTE]
What a nice and mature way to end a debate.
If smacking still was legal and dandy we wouldn't have Justin Beiber, or anything else of that shit.
I support smacking, because its not like you punch or beat the shit out of a child.
And you have all been there where you've seen a child be a complete fucking asshole and you've just hoped that the kid would get smacked.
[QUOTE=Rankxerox;34476875]I support smacking, because its not like you punch or beat the shit out of a child.[/QUOTE]
It is according to many on Facepunch. :downs:
general argument for someone who is pro hitting:
[I]"I think hitting children is effective as a parenting method because it was done to me and look how amazing I turned out"[/I]
Funnily enough this is never an actual legitimate argument. Many child agencies and experts (if not all of them) agree that hitting your children to teach them right and wrong bad. This is why it is illegal to do in the UK.
[URL]http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html[/URL]
[QUOTE=Vasili;34476967]general argument for someone who is pro hitting:
[I]"I think hitting children is effective as a parenting method because it was done to me and look how amazing I turned out"[/I]
Funnily enough this is never an actual legitimate argument. Many child agencies and experts (if not all of them) agree that hitting your children to teach them right and wrong bad. This is why it is illegal to do in the UK.
[URL]http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html[/URL][/QUOTE]
Yet as I showed in two seperate posts:
1. Experts also say that gaming is bad for you.
2. The general consensus amongst the public hold the opinion, many through experience, that there is nothing wrong with physical punishment in moderation.
Besides, is the comment "I was smacked as a child and I turned out fine" any less of an argument than "I play video games and I turned out fine"?
[QUOTE=David29;34477021]
1. Experts also say that gaming is bad for you.
2. The general consensus amongst the public hold the opinion, many through experience, that there is nothing wrong with physical punishment in moderation.
[/QUOTE]
Experts usually say its not, from the studies I have read - especially from psychologists. Populism is also not a legitimate argument. I can actually keep providing sources that disprove pro spanking but apparently from this comment of yours:
[quote]
Now, I admit, I said earlier that I don't accept studies - so I will play fair game. Ignore the studies. Hell, even ignore the actual article.[/quote]
There is no point trying to argue with someone who favours populism over professional studies. I actually look after kids on a weekly basis and I could tell you not to hid them to teach them right and wrong.
[QUOTE=Vasili;34477062]Experts usually say its not, from the studies I have read - especially from psychologists. Populism is also not a legitimate argument. I can actually keep providing sources that disprove pro spanking but apparently from this comment of yours:
There is no point trying to argue with someone who favours populism over professional studies. I actually look after kids on a weekly basis and I could tell you not to hid them to teach them right and wrong.[/QUOTE]
And what exactly is wrong with populism? Both populism and the studies provide essentially the same thing - a belief based on what is observed.
Besides, studies conflict. How can we put any more faith in a study over the public's opinion when we can find both pro and anti physical punishment studies? How many times in the past have studies been withdrawn because of false or erroneous data, or due to poor controls?
I've actually been saying for years that some kids won't learn from words. A tap on the wrist is [i]not[/i] child abuse the same way as making a kid cry by yelling isn't. I used to get hit as a child, hard enough to sting but never cause long term pain. It made me wail but I sure as hell didn't do it again and look, I'm one of the sanest people in my school full of rich kids who act like they're from the ghetto. The stupid child abuse laws are just limiting parents' ability to discipline their children, then the government moans about parents when the kids go out and fuck shit up for kicks.
[QUOTE=ntzu;34463896]Take away everything that means something to the child and put him in a very strict "house arrest" of sorts.
Also serve the same microwave heated meal every single day of this house arrest.
Give him a taste of prison, and if that doesn't straighten him out, hitting wont either.[/QUOTE]
no he neds two be rehebiliteted so hee can bee a producktiev membar ofe sosietee
[QUOTE=David29;34477209]And what exactly is wrong with populism? Both populism and the studies provide essentially the same thing - a belief based on what is observed.
Besides, studies conflict. How can we put any more faith in a study over the public's opinion when we can find both pro and anti physical punishment studies? How many times in the past have studies been withdrawn because of false or erroneous data, or due to poor controls?[/QUOTE]
The problem with populism is that it is typically used to eliminate freedom and persecute minorities. Usually the goals are nebulous and hence are not really achievable. Frequently, populism has been used to support authoritarian regimes. Populism usually is a form of mobilization that is essentially devoid of theory. Most people don't know whats good for them and can barely see 10 foot into the future of a society or nation, mob rule is idiotic and has created some very stupid laws and regimes in the past. Populism in the UK would see us out of the EU and ban immigration without understanding the full impacts of what it would cause. Normal people are not psychologists or professionals yet act like they are and believe what a group of people think is merit argument because they have 'personal experience' (as if that's an actual argument). I'm not talking about this being some 'study', this is acknowledged in the west internationally - that's why hitting your child is illegal in Britain. Just like there is a study that shows being homosexual is not psychological. Its acknowledged through therapists that being hit as a child is also a factor to many adults when they get older.
[url]http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/discipline-behavior/spanking/10-reasons-not-hit-your-child[/url]
[url]http://www.neverhitachild.org/hitting.html[/url]
[url]http://life.familyeducation.com/parenting/spanking/45304.html[/url]
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
[url]http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/for-parents-and-carers/positive-parenting/encouraging-better-behaviour/encouraging-better-behaviour_wda72886.html#The_issues_with_smacking_and_saying_sorry[/url]
[QUOTE=David29;34477209]And what exactly is wrong with populism?[/QUOTE]
[h2]HAHAHA[/h2]
You do understand that populism was basically how racism worked right? "That guy over there hates something, so I have a solid reason to hate it too! Logic is FUN!"
It's literally right there in the fucking word, man. All populism means is that it's [I][B]popular[/B][/I], not in any way right. If you were right about that, water wouldn't be blue, it'd be "transparent", and we would never have gone to space because we'd still think that it was a dangerous ether of darkness and monsterous beings. Populsim means literally [I]nothing[/I], other than that there's enough people saying it IS a legit argument to get them believing the same thing. So, basically, it's a vicious, nonsensical cycle.
[QUOTE=Vasili;34478735]The problem with populism is that it is typically used to eliminate freedom and persecute minorities. Usually the goals are nebulous and hence are not really achievable. Frequently, populism has been used to support authoritarian regimes. Populism usually is a form of mobilization that is essentially devoid of theory. Most people don't know whats good for them and can barely see 10 foot into the future of a society or nation, mob rule is idiotic and has created some very stupid laws and regimes in the past. Populism in the UK would see us out of the EU and ban immigration without understanding the full impacts of what it would cause. Normal people are not psychologists or professionals yet act like they are and believe what a group of people think is merit argument because they have 'personal experience' (as if that's an actual argument). I'm not talking about this being some 'study', this is acknowledged in the west internationally - that's why hitting your child is illegal in Britain. Just like there is a study that shows being homosexual is not psychological. Its acknowledged through therapists that being hit as a child is also a factor to many adults when they get older.
[url]http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/discipline-behavior/spanking/10-reasons-not-hit-your-child[/url]
[url]http://www.neverhitachild.org/hitting.html[/url]
[url]http://life.familyeducation.com/parenting/spanking/45304.html[/url][/QUOTE]
[url]http://thenationalscene.com/study-spanking-age-beneficial-child-development/[/url]
[url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/12/30/some-kids-are-never-spanked-do-they-turn-out-better.html[/url]
(Raises a good point at the end of the article about consistency of discipline - I wonder how many of your studies take that into accout...)
But, ok, I'll roll with the idea that populism is flawed. Doesn't really change the fact, though, that studies are equally as flawed.
[QUOTE=Rankxerox;34476875]If smacking still was legal and dandy we wouldn't have Justin Beiber, or anything else of that shit.[/QUOTE]
You're right, we probably wouldn't have successful children
[QUOTE=David29;34479143][URL]http://thenationalscene.com/study-spanking-age-beneficial-child-development/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/12/30/some-kids-are-never-spanked-do-they-turn-out-better.html[/URL]
(Raises a good point at the end of the article about consistency of discipline - I wonder how many of your studies take that into accout...)
But, ok, I'll roll with the idea that populism is flawed. Doesn't really change the fact, though, that studies are equally as flawed.[/QUOTE]
studies are flawed on what premises?
They need to distinguish a slap on the wrist from being punched in the face then thrown down a flight of stairs.
My parents slapped me but I dont feel I was abused as a child, my best friend was taken into care because his birth parents threw him up a wall and shattered his rib cage at the age of 16 months.
[QUOTE=Vasili;34479609]studies are flawed on what premises?[/QUOTE]
I already explained that.
[QUOTE=David29;34480029]I already explained that.[/QUOTE]
Because there is two sides to the same stone? Because not all psychologists or professors universally agree on the same thing? You'd take the merit of some mother or father or person brought up with hitting compared to actual study.
[QUOTE=Vasili;34480215]Because there is two sides to the same stone? Because not all psychologists or professors universally agree on the same thing?[/QUOTE]
That's part of the problem with them, yes. Am I the only one who sees the paradox in the idea that we should faithfully trust a study that is contradicted by another study?
[QUOTE=David29;34480294]That's part of the problem with them, yes. Am I the only one who sees the paradox in the idea that we should faithfully trust a study that is contradicted by another study?[/QUOTE]
But something doesn't need to be true to contradict something else. So while one study may say something different to the other, it makes it no less true. If that was how the world worked, there'd only be one political party.
[QUOTE=Cone;34480986]But something doesn't need to be true to contradict something else. So while one study may say something different to the other, it makes it no less true. If that was how the world worked, there'd only be one political party.[/QUOTE]
...Which means that the original study could be just as untrue. Hence why I don't trust studies.
and you trust populism instead.
[QUOTE=David29;34480294]That's part of the problem with them, yes. Am I the only one who sees the paradox in the idea that we should faithfully trust a study that is contradicted by another study?[/QUOTE]
...where are you seeing two studies on this subject, both of which are journal-published peer reviewed work and which are entirely contradictory to each other?
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