[QUOTE=David29;36562535]Not directly what he is talking about, but close enough:
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16923527[/url][/QUOTE]
They're completely different things.
I won't answer him until he provides a source, because I can't be bothered to argue over something if he won't point out the case he's discussing.
[editline]30th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;36562235]I honestly didn't notice this earlier, but I'm glad I have now. Previously I was assuming that you were British, but apparently that isn't the case. I don't see how you can dictate to someone what they should do with their country if you are not from said country.[/QUOTE]
I'll get to your other points later, but what the hell? How does that quote in [I]any way[/I] say I'm not British? Did you miss the 'us' in that statement or what?
[editline]30th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;36562235]"Last time it was calculated, in 2008, the European Union was costing us £65 billion gross every year. That's about £1,000 each every year for every man, woman and child in the UK. It increases every year, so it will be a lot more now. "
[URL]http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html[/URL]
You see, the problem is that - through issues like beaurocracy and large politician benefits (to name a few) - our own government costs us a fuckton of money. Having a second layer on top of this will only make things worse. I don't disagree that the EU needs to work together, but that does not mean we need to be forced into a costly and undemocratic union - or possible single state.
"The EU Commission itself* has estimated that EU regulation costs businesses 600 billion Euros a year, while the savings from the free market amount to only 180 billion Euros.
*Gunter Verheugen, EU Enterprise and Industry Commissioner, in 2006
[/quote]
For starters, the report is from 2008. The 'report' it uses as a source is from an MEP taking figures from the Pink Book, newspapers, anti-EURO websites and 'some economists', (I will read the report more thoroughly later, though) not the EU commission. The democracymovement website does not list a source for this so called 'EU Commission estimate', unless it believes a single MEP is the EU commission. If you can find me a source (Which I can't), then I'll discuss it further.
I also don't see a problem with the UK not receiving a boost in returns. As the report states, Germany is by far paying the majority of money in bailouts and IMF expenditure. Sure, we can argue all day about 'yeah but is it right to give the EU money to pay for other countries' and not get anywhere, but imo as long as the money is being spent on mostly bailouts and legislation I (mostly) like, I don't see a problem.
If you want to argue from a purely economic standpoint, I don't believe we'd receive a good trade return if countries decided they couldn't pay the loans to our banks anymore. I'll try and find a figure for EU bailout costs to the UK cost compared to country loan amount.
[editline]30th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;36562235]We can vote in MEPs, but that is it. It would be like only being able to vote for MPs in UK Parliament and having the ruling party picked for us.[/QUOTE]
The difference between directly elected and 'picked for us' is a pretty daft comparison. The president of Europe requires a significant majority of MEP's to approve their position. UK MEPs are voted in by us, and the MEP can be nominated and ratified. We're electing a party to select a president, which is basically the reverse of UK voting, where they pick a leader first and we vote for the party. I'd greatly prefer we'd directly vote for a president, but with a low turnout for MEP voting already I don't think it's feasible.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]They're completely different things.[/Quote]
Care to elaborate?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]I'll get to your other points later, but what the hell? How does that quote in [I]any way[/I] say I'm not British? Did you miss the 'us' in that statement or what?[/QUOTE]
Then it is poor sentence structure on your part. In "not outsiders depending on the USA when they don't give a fuck about us", 'they' implies the 'outsiders' and 'us' implies the 'USA'.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]For starters, the report is from 2008.[/Quote]
But it also states that it increases each year. This is backed up by:
"MEP Dan Hannan [daniel.hannan@europarl.europa.eu] reports in his blog (June 2011) that:
• The European Commission has just published its new draft budget. It wants an extra 46 billion euros, proposes to scrap Britain’s rebate, and suggests various forms of EU taxes, including a levy on financial transactions which would disproportionately hit the City of London.
•Britain increased its net contribution by 74 per cent in 2010. Much of the increase will be wasted.
•Worst of all, though, is the way in which the EU is assuming bank liabilities in advance of a default which everyone can now see coming. Britain has been dragged directly into the Irish and Portuguese bailouts, and indirectly into that of Greece: http://tgr.ph/kIye0L"
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]The 'report' it uses as a source is from an MEP taking figures from the Pink Book, newspapers, anti-EURO websites and 'some economists', (I will read the report more thoroughly later, though) not the EU commission.[/QUOTE]
You do realise that the Pink Book is the annual publication by the government that details the country's balance of payments, right?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]The democracymovement website does not list a source for this so called 'EU Commission estimate', unless it believes a single MEP is the EU commission. If you can find me a source (Which I can't), then I'll discuss it further..[/QUOTE]
Well, it does actually. And I posted it:
"*Gunter Verheugen, EU Enterprise and Industry Commissioner, in 2006"
Google: "Gunter Verheugen costs 600 billion" and take your pick of the sources.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36562864]I also don't see a problem with the UK not receiving a boost in returns. As the report states, Germany is by far paying the majority of money in bailouts and IMF expenditure. Sure, we can argue all day about 'yeah but is it right to give the EU money to pay for other countries' and not get anywhere, but imo as long as the money is being spent on mostly bailouts and legislation I (mostly) like, I don't see a problem.[/Quote]
There are quite a few people who would hold a much different view to you on this issue: hence the need for a referendum.
[QUOTE=David29;36563777]Care to elaborate?[/QUOTE]
I'm not trawling around the Internet to discuss something else, so no.
[quote]Then it is poor sentence structure on your part. In "not outsiders depending on the USA when they don't give a fuck about us", 'they' implies the 'outsiders' and 'us' implies the 'USA'.[/quote]
How the fuck does '[B]We[/B] need to be', '[B]our[/B] interests', '[B]not [/B]outsiders' and 'don't care about [B]us[/B]' imply otherwise? How many more clues do you seriously need?
[QUOTE=David29;36563777]There are quite a few people who would hold a much different view to you on this issue: hence the need for a referendum.[/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing against a referendum, I just think it's stupid to do it now amongst such uncertainty.
I'm reading up on your other points, I'll need to post a counter argument, which I will do eventually.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36563901]I'm not trawling around the Internet to discuss something else, so no.[/QUOTE]
Why not? It's a perfectly valid issue.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36563901]How the fuck does '[B]We[/B] need to be', '[B]our[/B] interests', '[B]not [/B]outsiders' and 'don't care about [B]us[/B]' imply otherwise? How many more clues do you seriously need?[/QUOTE]
What?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;36563901]I'm not arguing against a referendum, I just think it's stupid to do it now amongst such uncertainty.[/QUOTE]
Uncertainty in regards to what?
[QUOTE=David29;36564402]Why not? It's a perfectly valid issue.[/QUOTE]
If he wants to link me to the newspaper article, then fine. I'm not wasting my time arguing assumptions or looking for specific news articles. I didn't make the claim.
[quote]What?[/quote]
They speak English in what?
[quote]Uncertainty in regards to what?[/quote]
Everything I said earlier.
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