'Burkini' swimsuits banned on Cannes Riveria beaches by French mayor - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868802]You should probably place more of the blame on the overly religious families that would not allow women to go and enjoy the beach in the first place.[/QUOTE] Did not mean to rate this star, was scrolling on my phone. Although they should be allowed to wear what they want to the beach and not have the government tell them they can not wear it, I heavily disagree with how Islam treats women.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;50868903]I don't know if the French constitution has the equivalent of the 1st amendment (protection for religious expression), but I wonder if this law would hold up in a US Court. I think no, and I wonder if there would be a similar case in France[/QUOTE] From what I've read, Secularism is more serious an ideal in France than in the US. It's why the burqa ban happened as well

[QUOTE=bitches;50868938]It's definitely wrong. Banning the practice isn't a solution. It is a hostile measure that will only further entrench them in their beliefs and foster "us versus them" mentalities. This is what alienation means in arguments about modern social dilemmas surrounding Muslims. This clothing is a step in the right direction. The only way to change the minds of a group is to present better options and watch as the culture transforms via inclusive attitudes. This is what social integration means. This new clothing was a step in the right direction, representing the changing attitudes of modern integrated Muslim families to accept what would otherwise be deemed too promiscuous.[/QUOTE] I personally believe that the better option is to show the downsides of strict adherence to those kind of tenants. Allow the desire for more freedom to grow within the people that actually need it. By the way, it is pretty fucking disingenuous to try and pass me off as just some racist when the only damn thing I had said at that point was that you should place blame on the families. Those that would prevent women from going to the beach or forbid them from wearing any other form of practical clothing. I didn't even say all Muslims, I said overly religious families.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868904]Is it an excuse for social inequality if a group is taught and subsequently some of them believe that their social inequality is correct?[/QUOTE] [i]teach people what's wrong about it[/i] instead of telling them that they are wrong for being what they've been and doing what they've done their whole lives. Banning this does not force anyone to 'modernize', the people who enforce the ideals that keep women covered up would rather they never go to the beach instead, and all of this is beyond the point that the ban is over the fact that [i]it's somehow associated with terrorism[/i] for these women to wear unrevealing clothing, which is a fuckawful precedent

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868970]I personally believe that the better option is to show the downsides of strict adherence to those kind of tenants. Allow the desire for more freedom to grow within the people that actually need it. By the way, it is pretty fucking disingenuous to try and pass me off as just some racist when the only damn thing I had said at that point was that you should place blame on the families. Those that would prevent women from going to the beach or forbid them from wearing any other form of practical clothing. I didn't even say all Muslims, I said overly religious families.[/QUOTE] yes, clearly you will "allow the desire for freedom to grow" by [B]arresting [/B]Muslim women at the beach who, in their minds, are following their faith you totally won't make them hate you and your hateful culture at all next thing i know you'll be saying it isn't hateful to call muslim women [B]TERRORISTS[/B] for the clothing they wear attitudes like yours lead to more extremism than the Muslim faith itself ever will; you trash efforts to integrate because they aren't good enough for you, with disastrous social consequence

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868839]Blame the backwards belief that women cannot show their skin.[/QUOTE] Changing a culture is a slow process. This was a workaround to allow people from that culture of actually take part in the world, y'know, integrate perhaps? Blame the clowns who banned a harmless article of clothing.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868852]Yes, I am obviously a racist that just hates Muslims. It's not that I find the idea of restricting the rights of women abhorrent. I'd prefer a ban on Burkas and Burkinis than pretending to consider those kind of beliefs compatible with a modern society. By the way, yeah, it's totally victim blaming to blame the families/tennants that force this ideal onto the victim.[/QUOTE] I find restricting the rights of women abhorrent too, which is why I believe they should be able to wear whatever swimwear they choose.

[QUOTE=bitches;50868990]yes, clearly you will "allow the desire for freedom to grow" by [B]arresting [/B]Muslim women at the beach who, in their minds, are following their faith you totally won't make them hate you and your hateful culture at all[/QUOTE] My argument has been based on the original post I responded to. Being that if they cannot wear this then they, or more likely their families, will not let them go.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50869012]My argument has been based on the original post I responded to. Being that if they cannot wear this then they, or more likely their families, will not let them go.[/QUOTE] your original post was quite literally that the blame for a ban on progressive muslim clothing belongs more with muslims than those banning it which do you think is worse, banning clothing being used to integrate a regressive culture towards being a progressive one, or allowing that regressive community to integrate via progressive clothing?

[QUOTE=bitches;50869016]your original post was quite literally that the blame for a ban on progressive muslim clothing belongs more with muslims than those banning it which do you think is worse, banning clothing being used to integrate a regressive culture towards being a progressive one, or allowing that regressive community to integrate via progressive clothing?[/QUOTE] My original post is literally that the blame should also rest on the families that would prevent women from going to the beach without this "Burkini". Not "Oh it's all muslims", I stated overly religious families. [QUOTE=Thlis;50868802]You should probably place more of the blame on the overly religious families that would not allow women to go and enjoy the beach in the first place.[/QUOTE] I personally don't think that this is kind of clothing is an efficient way of integrating them or changing their religious ideology to be more modern.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50869031]My original post is literally that the blame should also rest on the families that would prevent women from going to the beach without this "Burkini". Not "Oh it's all muslims", I stated overly religious families.[/QUOTE] Why do you assume women can't follow their religion by their own free will?

Any woman that can no longer enjoy the beach because they had to wear this ridiculous getup to conform to their religion's (more likely, their family's/community's) idea of modesty should question that idea while also being upset with the fact that this mayor is invoking "good customs and secularism" to ban an outfit that otherwise represents no real threat to public safety. It shouldn't be a matter of the state, though I understand France has different ideas of religious liberty.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50868856]I kinda get what Thlis is saying because it's not the French governments fault [B]preventing them from going to the beach, it's their religion[/B] and presumably religious community forcing them to wear ridiculous clothes. It's still a dumb ban though.[/QUOTE] What? No, the god damn law they just proposed is the one that are actively preventing them from going to the beach, by OUTLAWING THEIR CLOTHING? You're probably not on the side that advocates the ridiculous notion of banning stuff from people, I hope, but still

[QUOTE=Altimor;50869047]Why do you assume women can't follow their religion by their own free will?[/QUOTE] The original post was regarding if women wanted to go to the beach but now couldn't. I went with what I think is the more likely scenario where the family is being restrictive. If we went with the scenario where it is self restriction, then maybe she should contemplate whether or not that tenant is something that she wants to follow.

There foes Paris again, subjugating its religious minorities.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50869031]I personally don't think that this is kind of clothing is an efficient way of integrating them or changing their religious ideology to be more modern.[/QUOTE] You're flat out wrong. It shouldn't need explaining that [I]banning a progressive effort to integrate[/i] is a bad thing. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Thlis;50869066]If we went with the scenario where it is self restriction, then maybe she should contemplate whether or not that tenant is something that she wants to follow.[/QUOTE] yes, ban someone from individually practicing their religion and they'll clearly not resent you for it A+ reasoning

[QUOTE=Mooe94;50869065]What? No, the god damn law they just proposed is the one that are actively preventing them from going to the beach, by OUTLAWING THEIR CLOTHING? You're probably not on the side that advocates the ridiculous notion of banning stuff from people, but still[/QUOTE] If you make it so Muslims arent allowed to use a steering wheel while driving, that totally isnt banning muslims from driving. If you take away the only piece of clothing their religion allows them to wear to the beach, you are essentially banning them from the beach. This is blatant xenophobia.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50869031] I personally don't think that this is kind of clothing is an efficient way of integrating them or changing their religious ideology to be more modern.[/QUOTE] I personally don't think that simply banning religious clothing is an efficient way of integrating people either. Do you?

[QUOTE=Thlis;50869066]If we went with the scenario where it is self restriction, then maybe she should contemplate whether or not that tenant is something that she wants to follow.[/QUOTE] You say that like they have a choice.

[QUOTE=Altimor;50869083]You say that like they have a choice.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty big issue if they don't have a choice.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50869078]If you make it so Muslims arent allowed to use a steering wheel while driving, that totally isnt banning muslims from driving. If you take away the only piece of clothing their religion allows them to wear to the beach, you are essentially banning them from the beach. This is blatant xenophobia.[/QUOTE] This is a terrible analogy because you are comparing the removal of a key mechanical asset to optional swimwear. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Altimor;50869083]You say that like they have a choice.[/QUOTE] uhhhh yeah that's a pretty fucking problematic concept which is what I think Thlis is talking about.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50869095]This is a terrible analogy because you are comparing the removal of a key mechanical asset to optional swimwear. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] uhhhh yeah that's a pretty fucking problematic concept which is what I think Thlis is talking about.[/QUOTE] To some muslims, that swim wear is not optional. They can not go to the beach without wearing it. Regardless if you like it or not, but thats apart od the Muslim faith and a lot of women willingly adhere to it. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Altimor;50869083]You say that like they have a choice.[/QUOTE] You say that like they dont. Youre under the assumption that all muslim women are oppressed, when thats clearly not the case. Are Amish women oppressed because they have a strict apparel codes as well?

[QUOTE=Altimor;50869047]Why do you assume women can't follow their religion by their own free will?[/QUOTE] because the fucking muzzies are evil

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50869095]uhhhh yeah that's a pretty fucking problematic concept which is what I think Thlis is talking about.[/QUOTE] I thought it was pretty clear that I'm referring to the local govt making the choice for them.

I don't get it, they look like baggy versions of the swimsuits you'd see in the 20s-40s. How are they "ostentatious"? I never understood how banning people from wearing something was supposed to promote freedom and tolerance.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50869107]To some muslims, that swim wear is not optional. They can not go to the beach without wearing it. Regardless if you like it or not, but thats apart od the Muslim faith and a lot of women willingly adhere to it.[/QUOTE] Where in the Quran does it describe burkinis? Specifically, wherein does the Quran say that wearing a burkini is as essential to a woman's ability to walk on a beach as a steering wheel is to driving a car. My point is that you are comparing a mechanical apparatus key to the function of a machine to subjective ideas of modesty and religious codes.

I thought these were also banned in the netherlands? At least the burka has been banned for quite a while and it didn't spark much of a debate.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;50869132]I don't get it, they look like baggy versions of the swimsuits you'd see in the 20s-40s. How are they "ostentatious"? I never understood how banning people from wearing something was supposed to promote freedom and tolerance.[/QUOTE] Its because the French are notoriously xenophobic, especially when it comes to Muslims. Theyve been actively attacking them on a government level for years

[QUOTE=Altimor;50869131]I thought it was pretty clear that I'm referring to the local govt making the choice for them.[/QUOTE] Fair enough, I've already said that this shouldn't be a matter of the state.

Can anyone who supports banning of wearing religious clothing in public please explain to me how it is constructive as a whole in any way possible? What does it solve? Does it not create more problems than reaching for solutions?