'Burkini' swimsuits banned on Cannes Riveria beaches by French mayor - Polidicks

I honestly am at a loss for words at the fact that people are defending a religion that oppresses women in this way. Banning this swimsuit is dumb but claiming "religious freedom" for swaddling women is lunacy when many of these people face ostracization from their families or even death if they were to leave. Leaving Islam is effectively one of the worse sins you can commit, and if your family is at the stage where they won't let you show your skin, then you CERTAINLY wouldn't be able to leave if you wanted to. Sure, some of these women want to live their lives this way, but many don't have a choice and ALL are indoctrinated, which in itself is pretty fucked up. [editline]s[/editline] [QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869462] I think it's the right thing the government is doing. The burqa is like the star of david the jews had to wear. [/QUOTE] I oppose burkas but no

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869462] I think it's the right thing the government is doing. The burqa is like the star of david the jews had to wear.[/QUOTE] What the fuck, bro? They aren't even slightly comparable.

[QUOTE=phygon;50869743]I honestly am at a loss for words at the fact that people are defending a religion that oppresses women in this way. Banning this swimsuit is dumb but claiming "religious freedom" for swaddling women is lunacy when many of these people face ostracization from their families or even death if they were to leave. Leaving Islam is effectively one of the worse sins you can commit, and if your family is at the stage where they won't let you show your skin, then you CERTAINLY wouldn't be able to leave if you wanted to. Sure, some of these women want to live their lives this way, but many don't have a choice and ALL are indoctrinated, which in itself is pretty fucked up.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I should be happy to make decisions for other people, disrespect their personhood and decisions because I know they're too brainwashed to think for themselves. No I'm not defending Muslims who force this shit on people. I am decrying government intervention and the violation of rights. Or are you going to act like I'm brainwashed too and there fore you can make decisions for me

[QUOTE=phygon;50869743]claiming "religious freedom" for swaddling women is lunacy when many of these people face ostracization from their families or even death if they were to leave. [/QUOTE] Not in fucking France they wouldn't - there are [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/french-muslim-women-burqa-ban-ruling"]about 1,900 Muslims in France who wear a burqa[/URL]. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, where burqa and niqab are actually worn by the mainstream, perhaps you'd have more of a leg to stand on.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869776]Yes, they are comparable. The jews were forced to wear the star of david or face punishment, the muslim women are forced to cover themselves or face punishment from their family and community. The punishment may not be as extreme as the jews had, but it's still a punishment.[/QUOTE] No Jew ever wore a Star of David because it was part of their culture or part of Judaism. Many many muslim women wear burqas because of those reasons.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50869775]Not in fucking France they wouldn't - there are [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/french-muslim-women-burqa-ban-ruling"]about 1,900 Muslims in France who wear a burqa[/URL]. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, where burqa and niqab are actually worn by the mainstream, perhaps you'd have more of a leg to stand on.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying it's a mainstream problem. I'm just saying it's a problem. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50869774]Yeah, I should be happy to make decisions for other people, disrespect their personhood and decisions because I know they're too brainwashed to think for themselves. [/quote] Not what I was saying at all my man. I never said they were brainwashed, I said that they were indoctrinated and oppressed, which they inarguably are. Even a cursory reading of the quran would make women's low value in Islam apparent to a reader. [quote] No I'm not defending Muslims who force this shit on people. I am decrying government intervention and the violation of rights. [/quote] All islam forces this shit on people if you're at the point of wearing a burqa. If that's what happens in your family, you're forced to wear it or face being entirely cut out of your family and friend groups. Why should we be defending the rights of groups who so viciously attack the rights of other groups (such as Women and Homosexuals) [quote] Or are you going to act like I'm brainwashed too and there fore you can make decisions for me[/QUOTE] what [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869776]Yes, they are comparable. The jews were forced to wear the star of david or face punishment, the muslim women are forced to cover themselves or face punishment from their family and community. The punishment may not be as extreme as the jews had, but it's still a punishment.[/QUOTE] no They're not comparable because one is a mark of shame, and one is "for the protection of the women"

-might offend some-

Actually, what on earth am I talking about. I totally forgot about this. The Quran does not mention the burka at all and is solely the creation of regressive extremist groups. The Burka is not part of Islam itself, and is entirely a creation of more extremist/regressive sects. Islam is entirely and solely based upon the Quran(which is unchangeable) , and since the Quran mentions burkas 0 times, burkas are not part of Islam.

[QUOTE=phygon;50869803]I'm not saying it's a mainstream problem. I'm just saying it's a problem. Not what I was saying at all my man. I never said they were brainwashed, I said that they were indoctrinated and oppressed, which they inarguably are. Even a cursory reading of the quran would make women's low value in Islam apparent to a reader. All islam forces this shit on people if you're at the point of wearing a burqa. If that's what happens in your family, you're forced to wear it or face being entirely cut out of your family and friend groups. Why should we be defending the rights of groups who so viciously attack the rights of other groups (such as Women and Homosexuals) what [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] no They're not comparable because one is a mark of shame, and one is "for the protection of the women"[/QUOTE] Indoctrinated and brainwashed in this context are the same thing dude. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] When you start claiming that someone else is indoctrinated and therefore their decisions are influenced in a way they don't actually want, but you somehow know they want that deep down? It just feels like an inarguable over riding of other peoples agency and identity because "I KNOW BETTER". [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;50869827]Actually, what on earth am I talking about. I totally forgot about this. The Quran does not mention the burka at all and is solely the creation of regressive extremist groups. The Burka is not part of Islam itself, and is entirely a creation of more extremist/regressive sects. Islam is entirely and solely based upon the Quran(which is unchangeable) , and since the Quran mentions burkas 0 times, burkas are not part of Islam.[/QUOTE] I fully understand this. I do not care because my argument is not from religion. It is from culture. You are saying to people of one culture "You cannot have your culture, you cannot have this, we know best, you don't know best, we do". Culturally the burqa, even if I detest it, is desired by some women. They're indoctrinated, so they don't have enough agency of their own to make a different decision, but you are smarter and better than them so you CAN make that decision for them.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869462]I think it's the right thing the government is doing. The burqa is like the star of david the jews had to wear. I am sure there is domestic disputes and violence if they argued with the men. It's a known fact muslim men oppress women, especially muslim women. I am sure if a muslim women refused to wear the burka there would be domestic problems.[/QUOTE] Either the women are being prevented of making an independent choice to wear it, in which case this ban restricts personal freedoms or Women are forced by violence to wear it, in which case this ban only keeps Muslim women from attending beaches [I]at all[/I], given that their only alternative to wearing the banned clothing is clothing that would bring them to physical harm. In the former scenario, the ban prevents individual expression. In the latter scenario, the ban does Muslim women no favors towards solving the real problem, and does nothing but prevent them from enjoying activities the rest of society is allowed. Either way, your argument holds no merit to validate this ban.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50869846] Culturally the burqa, even if I detest it, is desired by some women. They're indoctrinated, so they don't have enough agency of their own to make a different decision, but you are smarter and better than them so you CAN make that decision for them.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that we are smarter or better, but many women who put islam aside [URL="http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/24/ex-muslim-author-sharia-us-women-suffer/"]later realize how oppressed they truly were without realizing it.[/URL]. It's like being in an abusive relationship, but you think that abusive relationship is with god itself- it's nearly impossible to break out of. Some muslims may be doing it willingly, yes- maybe even for cultural reasons. But why should we allow a culture so toxic to women to exist in the western world? Why do we owe a culture which shits on the rights of half the entire population anything? [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50869846] When you start claiming that someone else is indoctrinated and therefore their decisions are influenced in a way they don't actually want, but you somehow know they want that deep down? It just feels like an inarguable over riding of other peoples agency and identity because "I KNOW BETTER". [/QUOTE] This is more like looking in on an abusive relationship and going "shit's fucked" than anything. It's the exact same. Sure, they claim that they're happy and that they want it, but its ideals are toxic as fuck and have absolutely 0 place in the western world.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869889]I understand what you're saying but I am sure this ban does not restrict them from going out in public, the muslim men have to concede and let the women take it off. They have alternatives like Hijabs that don't mask your whole entire face.[/QUOTE] so people you're decrying as violent and pushy will just have to give up their beliefs due to the women not being able to wear those out? More likely those women just won't get to go at all now. Violating the rights of these people won't have any benefits no matter how much you want it to [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;50869910]I'm not saying that we are smarter or better, but many women who put islam aside [URL="http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/24/ex-muslim-author-sharia-us-women-suffer/"]later realize how oppressed they truly were without realizing it.[/URL]. It's like being in an abusive relationship, but you think that abusive relationship is with god itself- it's nearly impossible to break out of. Some muslims may be doing it willingly, yes- maybe even for cultural reasons. But why should we allow a culture so toxic to women to exist in the western world? Why do we owe a culture which shits on the rights of half the entire population anything? [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] This is more like looking in on an abusive relationship and going "shit's fucked" than anything. It's the exact same. Sure, they claim that they're happy and that they want it, but its ideals are toxic as fuck and have absolutely 0 place in the western world.[/QUOTE] What do you get by [B]forcibly[/B] taking their religion away? More desire for the religion. You're not going to fucking help anything by acting holier than thou and determining their religious beliefs for them.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50869919] What do you get by [B]forcibly[/B] taking their religion away? More desire for the religion. You're not going to fucking help anything by acting holier than thou and determining their religious beliefs for them.[/QUOTE] Quite honestly, I'm going to be frank. Muslim fundamentalists have 0 place in the western world. I firmly believe that if you're going to follow a religion that's that anti-western-ideals, then you're absolutely free to move to a country that supports those ideals. We absolutely should not harbor people that work against fundamental ideals such as all humans being equal. Full stop. We just shouldn't do it. They should either get over their ass-backwards beliefs or leave.

[QUOTE=phygon;50869964]Quite honestly, I'm going to be frank. Muslim fundamentalists have 0 place in the western world. I firmly believe that if you're going to follow a religion that's that anti-western-ideals, then you're absolutely free to move to a country that supports those ideals. We absolutely should not harbor people that work against fundamental ideals such as all humans being equal. Full stop. We just shouldn't do it. They should either get over their ass-backwards beliefs or leave.[/QUOTE] And forcibly doing this via legislation historically has what effect on said populous?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50869974]And forcibly doing this via legislation historically has what effect on said populous?[/QUOTE] can you offer any historical documentation on legislation of this nature? serious question.

Can our politicians [I]please[/I] fuck off with that borderline nanny state attitude they have with secularism and women's rights They keep targeting stuff like this to defend concepts that fucking nobody felt were being threatened.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868873]These types of clothing are forced upon women and girls primarily and religiously without their consent. I feel that banning this forces the religious community to modernize something which frankly is pretty important. I think the other comment from the Mayor was dumb.[/QUOTE] Yeah you go ahead and tell that to all the women who were out on the street protesting this exact kind of reasoning because it actively hurts them more than any supposed "forcing" they had to endure. Most of the women wearing veils don't do it because they were forced. The majority of religious families in France are moderate and won't force anyone to do that, they do it in staggering majority of their own volition and a lot of them were willing to take it to the streets and protest in defense of their rights to wear whatever the fuck they want.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869889]I understand what you're saying but I am sure this ban does not restrict them from going out in public, the muslim men have to concede and let the women take it off. They have alternatives like Hijabs that don't mask your whole entire face.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50868729][URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/11/burkinis-banned-on-cannes-riviera-beaches-by-french-mayor/[/URL] Pictured: Burkinis [t]https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/ad_201671569-e1459589338805.jpg?w=964&h=639&crop=1[/t] [t]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/05/10/32DC0E9E00000578-3524170-image-a-13_1459848104013.jpg[/t] [t]http://newsbison.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/femmes-voilc3a9es-islam-plages.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/161109344346-0-1/s-l1000.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] What part of this "masks their whole entire face"? This practically [I]is[/I] a Hijab. The government banned Muslim outfitting from beaches, period. You couldn't be more uninformed. The ruling applies to beaches. There's no reason that these supposed abusive husbands ([B]nice job assuming every muslim man is abusive, by the way[/B]) would forego their beliefs simply due to a beach ban.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868839]Read the post I was replying to. Blame the backwards belief that women cannot show their skin.[/QUOTE] No, blame the ban.

Standing up for women's freedoms to wear what ever they want, by making it so they cannot wear whatever they want. How can anyone be in favour of this?

[QUOTE=Thlis;50868839]Blame the backwards belief that women cannot show their skin.[/QUOTE] Secularism means that people are free to believe whatever the fuck they want so long as it doesn't break the law. If you think their belief is retarded that's up to you. It shouldn't be up to the legal system to determine you're right and they're not. Mayors and lawmakers across France are regularly exploiting a loophole in this concept by making new laws that effectively push certain religions in a legal corner. It's idiotic, patronizing and dangerous. [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=skatehawk11;50870053]A hijab does not cover you from head to toe like the burqa (and burkini) does. I still think the hijab is still oppressive and should be banned as well.[/QUOTE] I doubt you live in an area with any significant amount of Muslims if that's the way you think. Move to an area like the one I live in and ask anyone wearing a hijab if they feel oppressed wearing one. Ask anyone [I]not[/I] wearing a hijab if they feel any more free doing so.

[QUOTE=phygon;50869980]can you offer any historical documentation on legislation of this nature? serious question.[/QUOTE] What has happened when the government prohibts an act, group, or thing [B]any[/B] other time? it just fades away gently into the night, no one fights and nothing happens, there's nothing to even consider. Nope. More likely you foster an attitude of isolation of those in that community that you're so desperate to convert. Most likely you create an insular community who stands united against the outside world because they feel unjustly singled out. You know how you [B]actually[/B] get people to peacefully assimilate? [B]YOU DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE CHILDREN, AND DETERMINE THAT YOU KNOW WHATS BEST FOR THEM IN THEIR PERSONAL LIVES.[/B] How hard is that? Canada, my country, a multi cultural nation that proudly has muslims as part of it has had few issues with what you seem to be certain is a huge fucking problem. We didn't ban the burqa or hijab, but according to you we have to because that's the only way to get them into our society. No. You treat people with respect. You treat people like they're people, and you give them choices and chances, not what you're doing which is forcibly, legislatively making them feel less like people than you or I. Do you want them to integrate or not? You say you do, but you want to ostracize them every step of the way, so how much can I really believe you? [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869996]Would you just let termites eat up your house's foundation just because you don't want to kill a living thing? That's the same logic. Islamic culture is a vermin to western society and you're too concerned about being politically correct instead of solving the problem that's eating up our metaphoric foundation.[/QUOTE] You are the britta of fucking up analogies. Having women have the choice to wear, or not to wear something is not equivalent to termites. Nice try though.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50870145]-stuff-[/QUOTE] I asked you if you had any examples of legislation of this nature working or not working. It's not about treating people like children. I don't think that fundamental Islam has any place in the western world because fundamental islam challenges many facets of our society that we consider to be rights (such as all humans being equal). Integration is also an option but integration is impossible until they drop shit like the Burqua as well as all the other parts that actively oppress people.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50869996]Would you just let termites eat up your house's foundation just because you don't want to kill a living thing? That's the same logic. Islamic culture is a vermin to western society and you're too concerned about being politically correct instead of solving the problem that's eating up our metaphoric foundation.[/QUOTE] Then do it through public discourse, activism, educating people on why joining a religion that infringes on their personal freedoms is a bad idea, anything except infringing on their freedoms yourself. I consider any strict religions no better than cults and would recommend everyone stay the fuck away but never in a million years am i going to start asking the government to start banning otherwise perfectly legal actions just because they are associated with a religion i disagree with. If they are eating babies and throwing spaghetti at nonbeleivers they're already breaking other laws, we dont need to target religions.

[QUOTE=phygon;50870170]It's not about treating people like children.[/QUOTE] Not having the intention of treating people like children doesn't change the fact that it treats people like children.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50870131]I live in a midwest town, we have a significant amount of muslim refugees for our population.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you're having plenty of fulfilling interactions with these people if you want to restrain their freedom and patronize them this much.

[QUOTE=phygon;50870170]I asked you if you had any examples of legislation of this nature working or not working. It's not about treating people like children. I don't think that fundamental Islam has any place in the western world because fundamental islam challenges many facets of our society that we consider to be rights (such as all humans being equal). Integration is also an option but integration is impossible until they drop shit like the Burqua as well as all the other parts that actively oppress people.[/QUOTE] You define "Fundamental" in your own way. Taking away the rights of people to make their own decisions is [B]not the western world I want to live in[/B]. You can stress over and over again how this isn't about treating people like children, but you are literally advocating the removal of certain peoples free will because, once again, [B]you know best.[/B] do you see why I am struggling with the breath taking arrogance you're displaying by saying you know best? I don't know best, but I do know that the society I want to live in doesn't take away the freedom to make decisions like this. Yes, men in the muslim community shouldn't be pushing these onto other women, and I do oppose that. But legislating it away and acting as if the government and we have the right to literally police the peoples non criminal actions that they themselves have the right to participate in is wrong to me. It's right to you apparently. I fundamentally do not understand the concept of acting like western civilization is the tippity toppity of civilization while insisting that western civilization [B]has[/B] to take away the rights of muslim women to make their own decisions in this field.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50870213] [B]I fundamentally do not understand the concept of acting like western civilization is the tippity toppity of civilization[/B] while insisting that western civilization [B]has[/B] to take away the rights of muslim women to make their own decisions in this field.[/QUOTE] I didn't say it was the top of civilization, but the simple fact of the matter is, women are equal. In the west, we strive to treat them as such and have essentially met that goal at this point. Anything that fights against that is bad. De-facto end. I'm not defending the absolute fact that organizations that attempt to treat women like second class citizens are bad any longer. I don't even know what you're arguing. This is like arguing that it's okay for the LRA to mutilate the genitals of women because it's part of their culture. It's lunacy to me, and discussing it won't make any progress because I fundamentally disagree with you on what the issue is. Who gives a shit about their culture when their culture is actively oppressing people? Why do we have to respect the culture just because it exists? [QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50870185]Not having the intention of treating people like children doesn't change the fact that it treats people like children.[/QUOTE] Not supporting folks who actively want to treat women like second-class citizens isn't treating them like children, it's holding them to the same level as every other adult I talk to in my daily life. If you think women are second-class citizens who need to cover their faces, feel free to leave and not come back. Ever. [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] Like for real why are you saying I define "fundamental" in my own way when I'm defining fundamentalists as people who want to treat women as second-class citizens? Do you not agree that people who do this are fucked up and are anti-western?

[QUOTE=phygon;50870253]I didn't say it was the top of civilization, but the simple fact of the matter is, women are equal. In the west, we strive to treat them as such and have essentially met that goal at this point. Anything that fights against that is bad. De-facto end. I'm not defending the absolute fact that organizations that attempt to treat women like second class citizens are bad any longer. I don't even know what you're arguing. This is like arguing that it's okay for the LRA to mutilate the genitals of women because it's part of their culture. It's lunacy to me, and discussing it won't make any progress because I fundamentally disagree with you on what the issue is. Who gives a shit about their culture when their culture is actively oppressing people? Why do we have to respect the culture just because it exists? Not supporting folks who actively want to treat women like second-class citizens isn't treating them like children, it's holding them to the same level as every other adult I talk to in my daily life. If you think women are second-class citizens who need to cover their faces, feel free to leave and not come back. Ever. [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] Like for real why are you saying I define "fundamental" in my own way when I'm defining fundamentalists as people who want to treat women as second-class citizens? Do you not agree that people who do this are fucked up and are anti-western?[/QUOTE] If you want to get rid of those beliefs, you don't ban the clothes the women are forced to wear.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50870266]No, you completely misunderstood. You are supporting a culture that is OK with public executions, belittling women, and disrespecting others that are not muslim. The analogy is that you're so focused on being accepting that you're accepting the bad guys. Muslim culture does not belong in the western society. It's primitive and violent. You're supporting that their culture is forcing women to wear this piece of clothing otherwise they are outcasted and possibly verbally and physically attacked. You're so hesitant on the freedom to wear burqas when 77% don't want to wear it.[/QUOTE] I don't want to violate freedoms of other people. You do. You call me the bad guy, but you're literally an authoritarian fascist because you would dictate the personal lives of millions of people to live by your rules. No, I am not defending those things. Those things are all abhorrent, and I oppose all of them. I do not however believe that legislating it is the right way to go about it. But go ahead, fucking throw your pathetic strawmans at me as if I'm the one who doesn't understand what you're trying to do by passing laws to control the behaviour of people you don't like. Go ahead, throw them because my nation, my country, hasn't banned those objects yet, and yet our country hasn't fallen apart, hasn't had serious muslim problems, and doesn't suffer from super insular muslim communities like your nation does. We treat them with respect, and guess what? They respectfully assimilate more often than not. Your way will not help. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;50870253]I didn't say it was the top of civilization, but the simple fact of the matter is, women are equal. In the west, we strive to treat them as such and have essentially met that goal at this point. Anything that fights against that is bad. De-facto end. I'm not defending the absolute fact that organizations that attempt to treat women like second class citizens are bad any longer. I don't even know what you're arguing. This is like arguing that it's okay for the LRA to mutilate the genitals of women because it's part of their culture. It's lunacy to me, and discussing it won't make any progress because I fundamentally disagree with you on what the issue is. Who gives a shit about their culture when their culture is actively oppressing people? Why do we have to respect the culture just because it exists? Not supporting folks who actively want to treat women like second-class citizens isn't treating them like children, it's holding them to the same level as every other adult I talk to in my daily life. If you think women are second-class citizens who need to cover their faces, feel free to leave and not come back. Ever. [editline]12th August 2016[/editline] Like for real why are you saying I define "fundamental" in my own way when I'm defining fundamentalists as people who want to treat women as second-class citizens? Do you not agree that people who do this are fucked up and are anti-western?[/QUOTE] You go from burqas to "YOU'D DEFEND GENITAL MUTILATION" That's a fucking pathetic strawman. Jesus fucking christ that is pathetic. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] It's not about respecting their culture for just existing. It's about how you fucking treat other people. It's about how other people WANT to be treated. How would you personally react if a government legislated specifically against your people? Will you [B]really[/B] be more inclined to be a part of that society? FUCK NO. [editline]11th August 2016[/editline] You people are so determined to save western civilization from a problem that you are [B]creating[/B] by causing such alienation. You do not help by creating more ostracization and more alienation. But fuck it. You guys go right ahead, alienate people until they agree with you. Lets see how fucking long that takes.