The Vatican has banned Catholics from scattering loved ones' ashes. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Joshii;51262008]Really now? It could be because they can't bring themselves to remove the ashes, especially if it is their son. I still have the ashes of my dog who was 13-14 years old when he died and was with me through primary and high school and I can't bring myself to just throw his ashes away either.[/QUOTE] I can tell you with certainty that its because theyre Catholic that they refuse to spread or seperate the ashes. To me, its not about spreading them, but seperating the ashes. HIs parents refused to let his wife to have any of the ashes as well and they threw a fit when they found out thay the coroner gave her a lock of hair off his corpse after he died. I would have liked to gotton some of the ashes since the man was practically my brother but I never asked or expected too, but the refusal to split the ashes with his wife on religious grounds is just retarded [editline]26th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=CroGamer002;51262164]Meanwhile for me, I don't know a single Catholic in my personal life even cremates their deceased. Almost as if anecdotal is rather worthless to judge all of us Catholics.[/QUOTE] Im not judgimg or generalizing catholics, im merely saying that their specific beliefs when it comes to ashes is silly. Being catholic doesnt make you a bad person. [editline]26th October 2016[/editline] Im the case of my friend, he himself wasnt even catholic, or Christian at all for that matter.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51262344]Im not judgimg or generalizing catholics, im merely saying that their specific beliefs when it comes to ashes is silly. Being catholic doesnt make you a bad person.[/QUOTE] [quote]Fuck Catholics.[/quote] I'm sensing a contradiction here?

I'm laughing my ass off at this. This has nothing to do with it not being holy, or against scripture or anything like that. The huge rise of cremations vs burials has caused a massive drop in income for a lot of cemeteries. Over here the lack of new burials is actually causing issues with upkeep, because some of the graves are so old, there is nobody around to pay for them. Without new burials being performed, there is no income to keep the cemeteries tidy. This is purely a move to get people to spend money on burials. It's hilarious yet kinda sickening. We don't have the space to bury every person that kicks the bucket. That graveyards operate this way has been known for ages. In a way, that is fine, the young taking care of the old and such. But to react to a shift in tradition like this, to a drop in income, is disingenuous. It's in the same line as telecom operators charging out the ass for data, because people stopped using their usually sources of income like SMS and phone calls. Because "It taxes the network more". Have a dignified ceremony, spread the ashes in the loved one's favorite places and perhaps keep a small token of them at home. There is nothing unholy about that, nothing in scripture that forbids it. This is the sort of situation where goverments, donations, charities, and such have to pitch in to take care of the old graves that nobody supports, until the upkeep costs shrink to be in line with current demand.

[QUOTE=Krahn;51262460]I'm laughing my ass off at this. This has nothing to do with it not being holy, or against scripture or anything like that. The huge rise of cremations vs burials has caused a massive drop in income for a lot of cemeteries. Over here the lack of new burials is actually causing issues with upkeep, because some of the graves are so old, there is nobody around to pay for them. Without new burials being performed, there is no income to keep the cemeteries tidy. This is purely a move to get people to spend money on burials. It's hilarious yet kinda sickening. We don't have the space to bury every person that kicks the bucket. That graveyards operate this way has been known for ages. In a way, that is fine, the young taking care of the old and such. But to react to a shift in tradition like this, to a drop in income, is disingenuous. It's in the same line as telecom operators charging out the ass for data, because people stopped using their usually sources of income like SMS and phone calls. Because "It taxes the network more". Have a dignified ceremony, spread the ashes in the loved one's favorite places and perhaps keep a small token of them at home. There is nothing unholy about that, nothing in scripture that forbids it. This is the sort of situation where goverments, donations, charities, and such have to pitch in to take care of the old graves that nobody supports, until the upkeep costs shrink to be in line with current demand.[/QUOTE] actually i was forced to take catholic classes, and they have always been against cremations. They believe the body should be kept as one whole body, not ashes that move around and spread apparently. its really dumb but its not that deep as you think.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51262374]I'm sensing a contradiction here?[/QUOTE] Lol ok dood, let me be more specific. Fuck catholicism, not people who practice it necessarily, but the ideals of catholicism.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51262545]Lol ok dood, let me be more specific. Fuck catholicism, not people who practice it necessarily, but the ideals of catholicism.[/QUOTE] well that's not much that much better. what do you find so odiously offensive?

I'll be honest that whole "Keep the body whole" thing sounds stupid as fuck, if god is god it shouldn't matter if your body was whole or not, if he truly is all powerful he should just be able to omnipotent you back into reality, body or no body and that's not even taking into account the fact that most bodies are buried under the GROUND, so bringing them back would require you doing some all powerful magic hoodoo anyway or rotted away, or completely disintegrated over vast, VAST periods of time. It's honestly weird how we humans love to limit godlike beings in such weird ways.

[QUOTE=Krahn;51262460]I'm laughing my ass off at this. This has nothing to do with it not being holy, or against scripture or anything like that. The huge rise of cremations vs burials has caused a massive drop in income for a lot of cemeteries. Over here the lack of new burials is actually causing issues with upkeep, because some of the graves are so old, there is nobody around to pay for them. Without new burials being performed, there is no income to keep the cemeteries tidy. This is purely a move to get people to spend money on burials. It's hilarious yet kinda sickening. We don't have the space to bury every person that kicks the bucket. That graveyards operate this way has been known for ages. In a way, that is fine, the young taking care of the old and such. But to react to a shift in tradition like this, to a drop in income, is disingenuous. It's in the same line as telecom operators charging out the ass for data, because people stopped using their usually sources of income like SMS and phone calls. Because "It taxes the network more". Have a dignified ceremony, spread the ashes in the loved one's favorite places and perhaps keep a small token of them at home. There is nothing unholy about that, nothing in scripture that forbids it. This is the sort of situation where goverments, donations, charities, and such have to pitch in to take care of the old graves that nobody supports, until the upkeep costs shrink to be in line with current demand.[/QUOTE] Cremation has been criticised by the catholic church since the second century. They've always felt that disposing of bodies in any way other than burial is disrespectful to the body and therefore to God

[QUOTE=Perrine;51261778]I'm not seeing how keeping ashes in a locket is pantheistic[/QUOTE] Iirc it's because you're worshipping an icon, theoretically putting that icon close in meaning to God, thus disobeying the 1st commandment.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51261879] My best friends ashes were kept by his parents. They refused to seperate them at all and couldnt afford a proper earn. Last I checked theyre sitting in a fucking plastic baggy somewhere. Fuck Catholics.[/QUOTE] Yeah fuck me right?!

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51261879]In Catholicism its viewed that a body must be whole or your soul wont go to heaven, or some shit like that. Seperating and spreading ashes has always been a no no. My best friends ashes were kept by his parents. They refused to seperate them at all and couldnt afford a proper earn. Last I checked theyre sitting in a fucking plastic baggy somewhere. Fuck Catholics.[/QUOTE] So what you're telling me is that God hates amputees?

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;51262856]So what you're telling me is that God hates amputees?[/QUOTE] Also everyone who was ever interred in Christian catacombs (aka jigsaw puzzles made out of bones) from the early church to the middle ages

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51261879]In Catholicism its viewed that a body must be whole or your soul wont go to heaven, or some shit like that. Seperating and spreading ashes has always been a no no.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Grimhound;51262088]Well, Christianity is pretty cut and dry about what happens to you when you die. Your soul is devoured by God. If we're venturing into more modern spins, your soul is either devoured by God as a reward or damned to an eternity in Hell as a punishment.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=WhyNott;51261857]I dont think they will care all that much, you need to do something really serious in order to get excommunicated, like getting raped at 8 years of age and having an abortion[/QUOTE] Holy shit the amount of bullshit in this thread, do you guys go to atheism classes or do you get your facts from youtube videos I'm not even religious but this is astounding [QUOTE=Zenreon117;51261883]I'm no Pope, but what exactly is system being espoused here? It seems to me that if what they are concentrating on is that in order for resurrection to be a thing a person must be entombed or something along those lines, then what of the thousands who have died over the centuries in less than decent resting places? It's not like the official line is that when it happens all the matter that composed the original body must be there to be put back together. Unless the Vatican is some Frankenstein cult that I'm not aware of, the physical body shouldn't be that important.[/QUOTE] You're thinking about this scientifically, but it's not like that. Burial is supposed to be the "correct" way to honor the dead because your body is god's gift and destroying it is a sin. It's not like burial is a prerequisite to go to heaven or anything like that. The Vatican in particular is known to make many statements that are barely rooted in reality by modern standards, but on the other hand their role is faith guidance, the problems come when people simply take anything they say as law I heard this from a priest I know recently and it's the wisest thing I've heard in a while : "It's important to remember the difference between faith and superstition"

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;51262930]Holy shit the amount of bullshit in this thread, do you guys go to atheism classes or do you get your facts from youtube videos I'm not even religious but this is astounding You're thinking about this scientifically, but it's not like that. Burial is supposed to be the "correct" way to honor the dead because your body is god's gift and destroying it is a sin. It's not like burial is a prerequisite to go to heaven or anything like that. The Vatican in particular is known to make many statements that are barely rooted in reality by modern standards, but on the other hand their role is faith guidance, the problems come when people simply take anything they say as law I heard this from a priest I know recently and it's the wisest thing I've heard in a while : "It's important to remember the difference between faith and superstition"[/QUOTE] I really like this post, people are being really obtuse about something that is completely harmless. Kind of just turning a non-issue into an issue.

[QUOTE=jonu67;51262686] if god is god it shouldn't matter if your body was whole or not, if he truly is all powerful he should just be able to omnipotent you back into reality, body or no body and that's not even taking into account the fact that most bodies are buried under the GROUND, so bringing them back would require you doing some all powerful magic hoodoo anyway or rotted away, or completely disintegrated over vast, VAST periods of time. [b]It's honestly weird how we humans love to limit godlike beings in such weird ways.[/b][/QUOTE] Eh, I don't see any reference to any kind of limitation. That'd be like saying "Hey, if a shell disintegrates your body your soul is fucked, sorry! Better luck next time if the Buddhists are right, I guess!". After all, this instruction is not rejecting the idea of cremation, just how the ashes should be stored. They are telling Catholics what's the right way to handle cremation, not saying "do this or your loved one will spend eternity in hell! mwahahah!"

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51263097]Egyptians belived your body should be in-tact too. It was dumb 4000 years ago and its still dumb now.[/QUOTE] people's sincerely held religious beliefs are not dumb

As a Catholic who's buried other Catholics, my understanding of it is that your body is supposed to be buried in the ground ala Genesis 3:19. While the Church still dislikes the idea of cremation, they do accept it as long as they remains are still buried. Why scattering isn't considered returning to the earth, I have no idea.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;51263357]people's sincerely held religious beliefs are not dumb[/QUOTE] Yes they can be, if they happen to be dumb in and of themselves. Believing that eating shrimp and wearing clothes made of two kinds of fabric mixed together, for instance, as taken right out of the Bible, will damn you to hell, is pretty dumb no matter how you slice it. Believing that the gays should be stoned to death isn't just dumb, but downright horrific. There are many people who sincerely believe this must be the right thing to do because "God said so" without showing an iota of critical understanding when it comes to their own system of beliefs. Blind belief is dangerous because it breeds fanaticism. I've nothing against religion personally as long as you don't stamp on somebody else's beliefs just because they don't follow your religion or the same religious practices. Likewise, atheists shouldnt rub their understanding into somebody else's face just because they believe religion is a thing of the past.

[QUOTE=Perrine;51261778]I'm not seeing how keeping ashes in a locket is pantheistic[/QUOTE] One might argue that keeping remains of a deceased one is similar to creating a shrine to the said person.

The title is a bit sensationalist to say they've "banned" the practice. If you have zero way to enforce it, it's purely a guideline/suggestion, not a "ban". Also it's a kind of sad some of the horseshit being said in this thread with completely ignorance of how the Catholic faith operates. They aren't not against cremation, they're just against certain ways the ashes are used/disposed of afterward. IIRC they've even said that cremation is "not necessarily anti-Christian", just not preferable.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51263520]One might argue that keeping remains of a deceased one is similar to creating a shrine to the said person.[/QUOTE] Just because that can be argued doesn't make it true. Intent does matter.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;51263824]Just because that can be argued doesn't make it true. Intent does matter.[/QUOTE] How one perceives it matters. Can say it's not what you intend all you want, doesn't matter if in practice that's what it becomes.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51261808]enjoy your excommunication[/QUOTE] Unless its a commandment it actually doesn't really matter.

Oh fuck off. So the Vatican considers me keeping a box of my wife's ashes in my apartment as unacceptable?

Not sure how "making sure to keep the body intact" is not actually worshiping creation rather than the creator, but there we go. No more room for "Dust to dust, ashes to ashes"?

Why does my burial even matter to you guys that much?

[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51263479][B]Yes they can be, if they happen to be dumb in and of themselves. Believing that eating shrimp and wearing clothes made of two kinds of fabric mixed together, for instance, as taken right out of the Bible, will damn you to hell[/B], is pretty dumb no matter how you slice it. Believing that the gays should be stoned to death isn't just dumb, but downright horrific. There are many people who sincerely believe this must be the right thing to do because "God said so" without showing an iota of critical understanding when it comes to their own system of beliefs. Blind belief is dangerous because it breeds fanaticism. I've nothing against religion personally as long as you don't stamp on somebody else's beliefs just because they don't follow your religion or the same religious practices. Likewise, atheists shouldnt rub their understanding into somebody else's face just because they believe religion is a thing of the past.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure the mixed fabric thing is just ritual, since IIRC it's stated in a part of Deuteronomy describing rules of worship. It's not saying you can't wear mixed clothes day-to-day. Ritual stuff doesn't really apply to the shrimp thing but a lot of the whole "don't eat X animal" actually makes sense historically at the time because a lot of them would fuck you right up, leading to the halal/haram (and whatever it was called for judaism) systems, Jesus declared all food clean so shrimp are a-okay for Christians now as well. But yeah just clarifying those two.