[QUOTE=-=killazebra=-;22435724]You obviously haven't been reading my arguments[/QUOTE]
Its kind of hard to, honestly. From what I gather, you think it is okay to take away the lives of innocents just incase they maybe might be terrorists, which could be dispatched later by ground troops.
I'd hate to see what would happen if you became a police officer.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;22435732]Why are we arguing about the gunner now? You said it was stupid for a photographer to be on the ground taking photographs, and therefore it's their fault they died. Some of those guys didn't have ANYTHING on them and they were just civilians who lived in the area. Are you saying that living somewhere being occupied by a foreign military and traveling outside your house is stupid and it's your own fault if you're killed?[/QUOTE]
I've been talking about the gunner without the gunner none of this would of happen so I have no clue what you are trying to get at
[QUOTE=-=killazebra=-;22435762]I've been talking about the gunner without the gunner none of this would of happen so I have no clue what you are trying to get at[/QUOTE]
You weren't before. You said it was stupid of them to be in a combat zone with AKs so it's their fault. None of them had AKs. Some of them had absolutely nothing that could be mistaken for an AK, so you retreat into "Well the gunner didn't know." That's not the argument.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22435746]Its kind of hard to, honestly. From what I gather, you think it is okay to take away the lives of innocents just incase they maybe might be terrorists, which could be dispatched later by ground troops.
I'd hate to see what would happen if you became a police officer.[/QUOTE]
That is not at all what I am saying I defended the pilot because looking at all the facts the equipment he was using and the amount of time he had to make the decision I think his actions were justified. They may have been horrible but in that situation he had no other choice.
This thread is a mess I'm going to bed.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;22435778]You weren't before. You said it was stupid of them to be in a combat zone with AKs so it's their fault. None of them had AKs. Some of them had absolutely nothing that could be mistaken for an AK, so you retreat into "Well the gunner didn't know." That's not the argument.[/QUOTE]
There was a guy with a ak in the video........ or what even seemed to me as a ak.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22435791]This thread is a mess I'm going to bed.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why I'm not in bed already. It's after 4 and this is not an intellectually stimulating argument.
[QUOTE=Gummylamb;22435630]Well no, they are killed.
Not quite with a multi-million dollar state of the art pinnacle of military might helicopter, but still.[/QUOTE]
That's not the point I was contending.
And T2L Goose, I just re-watched the video, they definitely had AKs, my bad. Although a justified action I'm still bothered by them opening fire with civilians much too close to the building. You can even see one enter the frame and take the force of the blast, wrong place wrong time.
[QUOTE=-=killazebra=-;22435782]That is not at all what I am saying I defended the pilot because looking at all the facts the equipment he was using and the amount of time he had to make the decision I think his actions were justified. They may have been horrible but in that situation he had no other choice.[/QUOTE]
The "no other choice" part scares me.
Put yourself in the shoes of a person living in Iraq. There is war on your doorstep every god damned night and day. I would wager that even carrying an AK around for protection is perfectly okay. Hell, I carry a knife on me when I ride my motorcycle. Should I be considered a knife murdering street thug and shot on site?
Yeah. It's just a fucked up situation.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22435825]The "no other choice" part scares me.
Put yourself in the shoes of a person living in Iraq. There is war on your doorstep every god damned night and day. I would wager that even carrying an AK around for protection is perfectly okay. Hell, I carry a knife on me when I ride my motorcycle. Should I be considered a knife murdering street thug and shot on site?[/QUOTE]
I say no other choice because from the pilots point of view these guys were terrorist either he killed them or they killed his comrades.
[QUOTE=-=killazebra=-;22435854]I say no other choice because from the pilots point of view these guys were terrorist either he killed them or they killed his comrades.[/QUOTE]
There is always "another choice," you moral absolutist. Also, thanks for addressing a small point and ignoring the one that was actually directed towards the debate.
When do his ballon pop and we get to know [B]EVERYTHING[/B]
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22435825]The "no other choice" part scares me.
Put yourself in the shoes of a person living in Iraq. There is war on your doorstep every god damned night and day. I would wager that even carrying an AK around for protection is perfectly okay. Hell, I carry a knife on me when I ride my motorcycle. Should I be considered a knife murdering street thug and shot on site?[/QUOTE]
Well, you need to keep in mind that there is a massive difference between where you live and Baghdad. Baghdad is a warzone, and unless you let the allied soldiers know that "hey, I'm on your side" and your a recognized civilian fighter for the good guys, It's probably a terrible idea to be carrying around a weapon in a warzone.
WHY AM I NOT IN BED FUCK
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22435875]There is always "another choice," you moral absolutist. Also, thanks for addressing a small point and ignoring the one that was actually directed towards the debate.[/QUOTE]
yes ok you are right, what he did was murder he is a blood thirsty bastard that is just murdering Iraqis he should be killed himself......... happy?
[QUOTE=-=killazebra=-;22435921]yes ok you are right, what he did was murder he is a blood thirsty bastard that is just murdering Iraqis he should be killed himself......... happy?[/QUOTE]
No, I'm not. I'm not saying he is a blood thirsty murderer. I'm saying the army needs better protocols for handling ground targets. Rather than "Herpidy doo! I see weapons! Open fire on these few men! I do not care if they are surrounded by civilians in a suburban environment with building housing civilians are either side!"
I'm more concerned with your black and white moral perspective, however. And that you just make fun of the argument rather than addressing legitimate reasons to disagree with it. Look at Goose. He's saying "Well, you're wrong because x" in a polite, civilized manner. Not typing frantically like a ten year old who is up passed his bed time.
I think it has less to do with protocols and just more to do with communication and better camera technology in helicopters. The camera quality is fucking terrible, I'm surprised they can tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy.
Reporters need to also start getting themselves some IR Friendly identification patches so the damn helicopter cams can see it and be able to tell "OH hey it's not a bad guy".
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22436058]I think it has less to do with protocols and just more to do with communication and better camera technology in helicopters. The camera quality is fucking terrible, I'm surprised they can tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy.
Reporters need to also start getting themselves some IR Friendly identification patches so the damn helicopter cams can see it and be able to tell "OH hey it's not a bad guy".[/QUOTE]
IR Tags would be incredibly helpful, but as soon as the insurgents caught wind of it, reporters would have a massive bounty on their heads for those tags. The whole debacle over there is a clusterfuck every way you look at it.
Have it so you can turn off the IR tags in case of being stolen and all that.
Yeah either way you look at it shit like this is going to happen. There really isn't a way around it. It's terrible but I'm not surprised it happened.
Reporters just need to stay in better contact with the occupied forces. If the chopper pilot and gunners knew that there was some reporters in the area then this whole thing would have went down differently.
[editline]03:44AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gummylamb;22436127]Have it so you can turn off the IR tags in case of being stolen and all that.[/QUOTE]
I don't think they are electronic. They just reflect light differently.
For example: [url]http://www.opsgear.com/index/page/product/product_id/2029/category_id/46/category_chain/46/product_name/Calico+Jack+Flag+with+Hook+%26+Loop+-+Infrared[/url]
I'm not surprised it happened, either. I mean, shit. My first gen iPod has better video quality than that fucking camera they were using.
Well then make electronic things, like the ac130 mission's strobes or whatever on your teammates.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22436154]I'm not surprised it happened, either. I mean, shit. My first gen iPod has better video quality than that fucking camera they were using.[/QUOTE]
they were zoomed in by a couple miles, you know
[i]Manning was turned in late last month by a former computer hacker with whom he spoke online.[/i]
What a dick move to turn the leaker in.
[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;22450672][I]Manning was turned in late last month by a former computer hacker with whom he spoke online.[/I]
What a dick move to turn the leaker in.[/QUOTE]
manning's fault for going around telling people about what he did
A lot of butthurt americans that want him dead now :o scary stuff.
This man should be given the medal of fucking truth.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;22434104]Motherfucker. "Release Manning", I can hear the slogan being chanted now.
Also, Manning is a true hero to all us anarchists around the world.[/QUOTE]
I swear to god, If one of you fucking 12 year olds uses Anarchy in the wrong sense again, I'm going to kick a baby seal.
[editline]12:48AM[/editline]
I think it's bullshit that:
They arrested him.
He went around namefagging in the first place.
That hacker guy turned him in.
There is multiple blame going on here
We're going to have this argument again? Seriously, the soldiers thought they were killing terrorists. We would be celebrating them if the people in the van had been terrorists, as they thought. Even Reuters agrees that their reporters screwed up and caused the incident.
[QUOTE=Morcam;22452989]We're going to have this argument again? Seriously, the soldiers thought they were killing terrorists. We would be celebrating them if the people in the van had been terrorists, as they thought. Even Reuters agrees that their reporters screwed up and caused the incident.[/QUOTE]
The argument isn't that the helicopter pilots are bad, they were doing their job
The controversy is that they tried to cover it up.
[QUOTE=ProboardslolV2;22453003]The argument isn't that the helicopter pilots are bad, they were doing their job
The controversy is that they tried to cover it up.[/QUOTE]
There wasn't really anyone pressuring them to reveal it, and it just so happens that killing at least a few people who were certainly civilians is bad for PR.
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