• Fresh violence in the Ukraine again. Thousands march on Parliament before being gunned down by the p
    169 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620[/url] [quote]Some live rounds have been fired but it is not clear by whom. Protesters are throwing petrol bombs, while police are using water cannon.[/quote]
[QUOTE=gudman;43974565]Or molotovs at those who only have shields and batons. And beating the living fuck out of those who already lost their shields, helmets, batons. Possibly beating to death. I'm not saying I support someone here. But what the fuck this kind of violence is barbaric.[/QUOTE] Ever been faced by a major force armed to the teeth, while you're holding a picket sign and some rocks? It's easy to pass judgment when you're not looking down the street from your home at a BTR-60 down on the street corner. Thus far the Ukrainian Government has been playing softball, it's only gotten very sporty the last day or so...and it has the possibility of getting much worse. Those BTR's roaming around could be given live munitions for their 14.5mm KPV HMG and it's been photo confirmed that Ukrainian military units have been deployed with live ammunition and weapons to "secure" strategic areas and help "suppress" active dissidents.
[QUOTE=Weps;43981164]Ever been faced by a major force armed to the teeth, while you're holding a picket sign and some rocks? It's easy to pass judgment when you're not looking down the street from your home at a BTR-60 down on the street corner. Thus far the Ukrainian Government has been playing softball, it's only gotten very sporty the last day or so...and it has the possibility of getting much worse. Those BTR's roaming around could be given live munitions for their 14.5mm KPV HMG and it's been photo confirmed that Ukrainian military units have been deployed with live ammunition and weapons to "secure" strategic areas and help "suppress" active dissidents.[/QUOTE] Has a thought ever crossed your mind, that [b]because[/b] protesters are arming themselves police has to keep up? The unrest started [b]way before[/b] BTRs appeared, molotovs and rocks were thrown way before Berkut started walking around with AKs. So far escalation of the conflict has been only pushed actively from radicals' side, while non-violent protestors have been trying to calm them down all along, and government was pretty much scared to do anything at all but pass idiotic legislation they wouldn't be physically able to enforce anyway. I mean, look at these armed to the teeth fighters. So scary. Especially those terminators at 7:54. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29TnqpBv0Fo[/media] Don't forget to look at dates there.
[QUOTE=gudman;43974864]Again, I am not picking sides. [i]FREEDOM[/i] is great and all, and corrupt governments are bad, but I fear they won't get much freedom in a country where individuals who are calling people to arms are in power. And they sure as hell want to get there. To me at the moment, it seems like right-wing extremists are mostly running the show and sane people just barely manage to calm them down a bit. People with riot shields and molotovs, wearing helmets and body armor they took from beaten to near death policemen, who burn everything they can reach - cars, buses, trucks, trams etc. - don't look much like freedom fighters to me.[/QUOTE] Like I said before, once you've faced organized, train, well-armed opposition like what you're seeing in Ukraine, you'll understand. The most empty feeling comes across you went your armed with nothing and you see an armored vehicle sitting in the parking lot of what use to be the neighborhood grocers.
[QUOTE=Weps;43981272]Like I said before, once you've faced organized, train, well-armed opposition like what you're seeing in Ukraine, you'll understand. The most empty feeling comes across you went your armed with nothing and you see an armored vehicle sitting in the parking lot of what use to be the neighborhood grocers.[/QUOTE] Absolutely. And that feeling makes you pick up a rock, molotov cocktail, put on your mask and burn tires. And then cars. And then more tires. And turcks. And police. Must be a powerful feeling indeed.
[QUOTE=smurfy;43980888][url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620[/url][/QUOTE] [quote=bbc]The far-right Right Sector protest movement said it had not signed up to the truce and there was "nothing to negotiate"[/quote] Seems not everyone wants to stop violence. Democratic solutions clearly arn't in everyone's interests.
[QUOTE=gudman;43981224]Has a thought ever crossed your mind, that [b]because[/b] protesters are arming themselves police has to keep up? The unrest started [b]way before[/b] BTRs appeared, molotovs and rocks were thrown way before Berkut started walking around with AKs. So far escalation of the conflict has been only pushed actively from radicals' side, while non-violent protestors have been trying to calm them down all along, and government was pretty much scared to do anything at all but pass idiotic legislation they wouldn't be physically able to enforce anyway. I mean, look at these armed to the teeth fighters. So scary. Especially those terminators at 7:54. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29TnqpBv0Fo[/media] Don't forget to look at dates there.[/QUOTE] You don't defuse a situation by increasing the perception of violence. By deploying BTR's and Berkut with AK's the government has reinforced the rhetoric of the "radicals" as you've so masterfully labelled them. So now, rather than allowing the situation to run it's course in a controllable manner, they've now created even more 'radicals",. This kind of action is the exact thing one would expect to see in Stalinist Russia, not 2013/2014 Ukraine. You've completely missed my point. Yup, those police are armed with some late-era riot gear, but their presents provides proof for the "radicals" to use as fuel on the fire. [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=gudman;43981287]Absolutely. And that feeling makes you pick up a rock, molotov cocktail, put on your mask and burn tires. And then cars. And then more tires. And turcks. And police. Must be a powerful feeling indeed.[/QUOTE] It's the feeling of helplessness and the realization that you can either take it on your knees or stand up and resist.
[QUOTE=Weps;43981369]You don't defuse a situation by increasing the perception of violence. By deploying BTR's and Berkut with AK's the government has reinforced the rhetoric of the "radicals" as you've so masterfully labelled them. So now, rather than allowing the situation to run it's course in a control manner, they've now created even more 'radicals",. This kind of action is the exact thing one would expect to see in Stalinist Russia, not 2013/2014 Ukraine. You've completely missed my point. Yup, those police are armed with some late-era riot gear, but their presents provides proof for the "radicals" to use as fuel on the fire. [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] It's the feeling of helplessness and the realization that you can either take it on your knees or stand up and resist.[/QUOTE] You seem to deny the existance of radicals. The protesters were the first to shoot and throw molotovs. Even during the peaceful periods protesters have broken that peace. Look at my quote above from the bbc. Some radical groups deny there being a ceasefire. They are actively trying to escalate the situation because they know they have more to gain. They can't come to power legitimately/democratically so they'll use the riots as a means instead.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43981395]You seem to deny the existance of radicals. The protesters were the first to shoot and throw molotovs. Even during the peaceful periods protesters have broken that peace. Look at my quote above from the bbc. Some radical groups deny there being a ceasefire. They are actively trying to escalate the situation because they know they have more to gain. They can't come to power legitimately/democratically so they'll use the riots as a means instead.[/QUOTE] I'm not denying the existence of anything. One man's "extremist/radical" is another man's statesman.
RIP truce. Clashes have resumed, 5 killed today already [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620[/url]
[QUOTE=smurfy;43981421]RIP truce. Clashes have resumed, 5 killed today already [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620[/url][/QUOTE] That has to be the shortest truce I've ever known, breaking after about 10 hours.
[QUOTE=Weps;43981407]I'm not denying the existence of anything. One man's "extremist/radical" is another man's statesman.[/QUOTE] In the other thread there were some rather interesting images and exerts from your statemen's manifesto. Some stuff about jewish cabals being brought to justice and people being imprisoned for "unpatriotic" behavior.
[QUOTE=Noi;43982875][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8[/media] [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [B]60 people are reported dead to this moment[/B][/QUOTE] That video made me physically ill.
[QUOTE=Noi;43982875][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8[/media] [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [B]60 people are reported dead to this moment[/B][/QUOTE] Killing protestors. Gg Ukraine. NATO intervention when?
[QUOTE=Squad1993;43982985] NATO intervention when?[/QUOTE] Thats probably never going to happen.
We can hope someone steps in to mediate this.
A literal revolution.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43982999]Thats probably never going to happen.[/QUOTE] The notion of leaving those people to fight alone upsets me greatly. The government and anyone who agrees with their method of handling this need to be flattened.
[QUOTE=Squad1993;43983103]We can hope someone steps in to mediate this.[/QUOTE] [quote=bbc] The far-right Right Sector protest movement said it had not signed up to the truce and there was "nothing to negotiate".[/quote] Some people don't want a peaceful conclusion.
[QUOTE=Noi;43982875][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8[/media] [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [B]60 people are reported dead to this moment[/B][/QUOTE] Fucking christ, this is grotesque to watch ...
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43981494]In the other thread there were some rather interesting images and exerts from your statemen's manifesto. Some stuff about jewish cabals being brought to justice and people being imprisoned for "unpatriotic" behavior.[/QUOTE] So you're basing the entire protest on the actions and quotes of small minority. Nothing like a fresh pot of stereotyping to get the old wheels rolling. You know, they seek out the people that say the stupidest shit on purpose. It illegitimizes the entire message being sent. Then again, it seems this community has a better grasp on it as a whole, being the experienced combat veterans, political masters, and intellectual types to gather at such an internet hovel such as this. I've seen nothing, but Armchair Quarterback banter, pepper with the occasional naive comment about subject matter that is barely understood as a whole by the majority of members. Then again, what should I expect, most here have probably never ventured outside the block they live in, much less barely understand the geopolitical or socioeconomic dynamics that will affect Ukraine. [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Grimhound;43982981]That video made me physically ill.[/QUOTE] Ah, this must be those "radicals" I've been hearing so much about. Serves the dirty bastards right for wanting something different. How DARE that challenge the authority of the state! They should have taken in the ass like good like Ukrainians and been about their way with a smile on their face and a thank you. Can't very well have people taking up arms for something they believe in and heaven forbid should they physically resist and put up a fight against armored vehicles and military units. Yadda, yadda, come such about human rights and suppression of speech and association. Not like that's a big deal or anything.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43983188]Some people don't want a peaceful conclusion.[/QUOTE] Jesus dude I'm getting really fucking tired of you.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;43985052]Jesus dude I'm getting really fucking tired of you.[/QUOTE] Some men want to watch the world burn. [editline]20th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Squad1993;43982985]Killing protestors. Gg Ukraine. NATO intervention when?[/QUOTE] The last thing you want is an intervention from an intentional military cooperative. It'll just increase the insanity, some factions will see it as an invasion by foreign powers and it will certainly make the already questionable government of Ukraine seem that much more inept and illegitimate. Nothing good comes from deploying foregin military forces into a internal, civil matter.
yes its all cia guys no real protesters inside really all conspiracies
So as far as I understand, most of the riots are happening in the Western and Central parts of Ukraine. Historically, the Eastern part has always been close to Russia while the Western one was under European influences (think back to the 17th century and the whole Bogdan Hmelnitsky thing). Why not just split the country into two separate administrative regions? Would there be any downsides to that? I am not really good with politics. The other peaceful option would be joint talks with the EU and Russia and a limitation of Yanukovich's rule, but I don't see that happening.
[QUOTE=Demeschik;43995580]So as far as I understand, most of the riots are happening in the Western and Central parts of Ukraine. Historically, the Eastern part has always been close to Russia while the Western one was under European influences (think back to the 17th century and the whole Bogdan Hmelnitsky thing). Why not just split the country into two separate administrative regions? Would there be any downsides to that? I am not really good with politics. The other peaceful option would be joint talks with the EU and Russia and a limitation of Yanukovich's rule, but I don't see that happening.[/QUOTE] Downside being western might be able to join the EU, for the same reasons experts are doubting scotland being able to join. Splitting a country, even by ethnicity, doesn't work. Look at Pakistan and India/Northern Ireland and ROI. It is best the country stays as one.
Remember when Ukraine wanted to join NATO then took Russia up the ass? Yeah.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43981350]Seems not everyone wants to stop violence. Democratic solutions clearly arn't in everyone's interests.[/QUOTE] Not everyone has the capability to stay calm and protest normally - there's bound to be some folks who want to fight just because they can. What I've noticed is that people prefer to call them 'anarchists'. People fighting against the government and the system because they can is not anarchism, that's just a lust for violence.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;43995854]Not everyone has the capability to stay calm and protest normally - there's bound to be some folks who want to fight just because they can. What I've noticed is that people prefer to call them 'anarchists'. People fighting against the government and the system because they can is not anarchism, that's just a lust for violence.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Just hope those thugs, anarchists and radical groups don't ruin the progress which has been made.
I don't believe "Fresh" would be the correct term to use
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