The Spanish Government “will not allow” and “will not negotiate” on Catalonia’s self-determination v - Polidicks

Catalonia has gone through some serious shit.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43193721]To put it into prospective. The Catalans were basically their own country and had been historically governed as such until Franco. The only reason they're a part of Spain is because of a fucking wedding. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] I honestly hope the Spanish do something really drastic. Not because of a desire to see war, but because it might be the only way at this point. Not exactly a good picture to see one of Europe's leading economic areas (Barcelona) shot at and occupied because of peaceful protests.[/QUOTE] Hopefully Quebec gets some inspiration from the Catalans. Well not separatists blowing up the CN Tower or anything like that.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43197658]Hopefully Quebec gets some inspiration from the Catalans. Well not separatists blowing up the CN Tower or anything like that.[/QUOTE] I thought a majority of those in Quebec didn't want independence?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43197763]I thought a majority of those in Quebec didn't want independence?[/QUOTE] Seems to be getting close, maybe another referendum is needed. [url]http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Quebec+already+independent+mind+Lis%C3%A9e/9275428/story.html[/url] [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SeamanStains;43193769]If you ban peaceful routes to self determination, what is left?[/QUOTE] Does that get extended to the Scottish and Northern Irish too? [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43196797]I think it will end well enough. I don't think the European community will suffer a war of independence right next to them that's already a part of them in many different ways.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure the EU would back Madrid on this one, in fact they've already said Catalunya (as well as Scotland) wouldn't be able to secede then join the Euro or even the EU in the short-term. Why do you think the Scots are angling at keeping the pound? If I was running the Spanish government I would tell the Catalan nationalists (and the Basques) behind closed doors, "You try to break Spain up and your port facilities go up in flames". But yes Madrid like London need to make the concept of union more attractive and not be reliant purely on threats. EDIT: PS Civ 5 FTW :) [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eudoxia;43193960]lol with what money?[/QUOTE] Wondering what's with all the Spain hate on Facepunch, I've seen this in several threads now. People make it sound like it's some inconsequential developing country that doesn't affect anything outside its own borders and that could be used as everyone's punching bag. Educate yourselves: [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sp.html[/url]

I like how our goverment doesn't stop lying on this issue, like it was a vital decision. How about fighting the [B]massive[/B] corruption?

I recall Venice doing something like this not too long ago, with Italy. Not sure what became of that, exactly - all I know is that for some reason, they never gained the independence they were looking for.

Aragon ftw

[QUOTE=kuydna;43197956] Does that get extended to the Scottish and Northern Irish too? [/QUOTE] If your looking to draw parallels you should be looking at the independence of Republic of Ireland (inc NI), not Scotland.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;43200127]If your looking to draw parallels you should be looking at the independence of Republic of Ireland (inc NI), not Scotland.[/QUOTE] why

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;43200127]If your looking to draw parallels you should be looking at the independence of Republic of Ireland (inc NI), not Scotland.[/QUOTE] Catalunya has been a part of Spain for centuries...

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43193721]To put it into prospective. The Catalans were basically their own country and had been historically governed as such until Franco. The only reason they're a part of Spain is because of a fucking wedding. [/QUOTE] What are you talking about? The Kingdom of Aragón had them owned during the times of Columbus.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;43200342]why[/QUOTE] Because Scotland is very much divided over Independence, they are getting their vote, and the UK does not hate Scotland or it's people. Ireland wanted Independence, the UK stopped it and so it led to years of violence which eventually led to them gaining independence and the repercussion still went on till the 90's. Catalonia is being left with fewer and fewer options so i could very easily go that way if the Spanish government does not wake up and realise that this situation cannot be brushed under the carpet.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43193852]The American revolution was at first, a movement for autonomy that got fucked up because [B]Benjamin Franklin didn't do his job right and failed to talk to the British crown about the colonies issues.[/B][/QUOTE] Explain. This is the first time I've seen someone call Franklin anything other than one of the most brilliant diplomats alive at the time.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;43200451]Because Scotland is very much divided over Independence, they are getting their vote, and the UK does not hate Scotland or it's people. Ireland wanted Independence, the UK stopped it and so it led to years of violence which eventually led to them gaining independence and the repercussion still went on till the 90's. Catalonia is being left with fewer and fewer options so i could very easily go that way if the Spanish government does not wake up.[/QUOTE] Catalan independance is a fantasy, same with Scottish. They both need the approval of all EU member states to accede to the union as new entities. The Scottish nationalists are so deluded they think they can break away and continue using the pound. Why would London go along with that? And the Catalans are even more screwed, how do they use the Euro from outside the EU? It seems the best option is somekind of compromise along a new federal structure for both the UK and Spain, apparently works well enough for the US and Germany. EDIT: How is it dumb mechanical43?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43200480]Explain. This is the first time I've seen someone call Franklin anything other than one of the most brilliant diplomats alive at the time.[/QUOTE] he truly is the god emperor of mankind

Like we need another Spain.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;43200513]he truly is the god emperor of mankind[/QUOTE] No really, I want to know what my schools have been lying at me and I want to see what your schools have been lying at you. [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;43195955]Without distracting the thread too much, it would be a stretch to consider the British heavy handed compared to the usual British response. They didn't send many troops, it was difficult to find a general willing to build his career on shooting white colonists and they were overall too careful in trying to not upset the locals. If it was any other colony it would have been put down brutally burning every town and village along the way.[/QUOTE] "For America, it was the day one of the most powerful nations in the world was born. For the British, it was Tuesday."

[QUOTE=kuydna;43200494]Catalan independance is a fantasy, same with Scottish. They both need the approval of all EU member states to accede to the union as new entities. The Scottish nationalists are so deluded they think they can break away and continue using the pound. Why would London go along with that? And the Catalans are even more screwed, how do they use the Euro from outside the EU? It seems the best option is somekind of compromise along a new federal structure for both the UK and Spain, apparently works well enough for the US and Germany.[/QUOTE] But that's the thing, the Scottish Nationalists are not being silenced. They are allowed to voice their opinions and are being given their chance at self determination, they are not being hemmed into a corner like Catalonia. The feasibility is neither here nor there in this instance. The movement is big enough to warrant being heard out and not just ignored. Catalonia has been doing everything peacefully to this point (afaik) but the Spanish Government won't listen and are trying to silence them. 1.6 million people won't just back down and forget their feelings on this matter, if the Spanish government does not negotiate and instead opts to close all the peaceful roads leaving nothing but violence left. Lets just say it's not out of the question that a repeat of the UK / Ireland situation could happen.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;43200610]But that's the thing, the Scottish Nationalists are not being silenced. They are allowed to voice their opinions and are being given their chance at self determination, they are not being hemmed into a corner like Catalonia. The feasibility is neither here nor there in this instance. The movement is big enough to warrant being heard out and not just ignored. Catalonia has been doing everything peacefully to this point (afaik) but the Spanish Government won't listen and are trying to silence them. 1.6 million people won't just back down and forget their feelings on this matter, if the Spanish government does not negotiate and instead opts to close all the peaceful roads leaving nothing but violence left. Lets just say it's not out of the question that a repeat of the UK / Ireland situation could happen.[/QUOTE] Maybe that's what Madrid wants so they can enact lots of draconian anti-terror legislation? I was under the impression that the Spanish regions already had huge autonomy, what more do they want? Yeah, talk is preferable to another civil war :) Send in the Facepunch negotiation team.... [video=youtube;7IEwBrJzhlg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IEwBrJzhlg[/video]

[QUOTE=kuydna;43200386]Catalunya has been a part of Spain for centuries...[/QUOTE] So was Mexico yet they fought for independence.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43200932]So was Mexico yet they fought for independence.[/QUOTE] It's really not the same thing. Anyway, it's all academic as Catalan and Scottish independance will never happen for reasons already stated.

Spain doesn't like self determination for some reason. They call themself a democracy but they aren't really.

[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;43201830]Spain doesn't like self determination for some reason. They call themself a democracy but they aren't really.[/QUOTE] How many countries in the world do you think are willing to allow pieces to break off themselves? How many countries besides Spain do you think are struggling with splittist movements?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43200523]No really, I want to know what my schools have been lying at me and I want to see what your schools have been lying at you.[/QUOTE] Schools over here don't cover Franklin. And I don't know why they would.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43200480]Explain. This is the first time I've seen someone call Franklin anything other than one of the most brilliant diplomats alive at the time.[/QUOTE] Franklin was a living troll. Pinning the entire war on him is a ludicrous concept.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202024]How many countries in the world do you think are willing to allow pieces to break off themselves? How many countries besides Spain do you think are struggling with splittist movements?[/QUOTE] People deserve the right to self determination.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43202326]People deserve the right to self determination.[/QUOTE] They already have a large degree of autonomy, they've had decades of concessions made to them - what more do they want?

[QUOTE=kuydna;43197956]Wondering what's with all the Spain hate on Facepunch, I've seen this in several threads now. People make it sound like it's some inconsequential developing country that doesn't affect anything outside its own borders and that could be used as everyone's punching bag. Educate yourselves: [URL]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sp.html[/URL][/QUOTE] Dat 25% unemployment rate. I honestly don't even know how a country functions with 1/4 of the population not working. I mean, that's right around what the US had during the Great depression...

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202419]They already have a large degree of autonomy, they've had decades of concessions made to them - what more do they want?[/QUOTE] Independence.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43200480]Explain. This is the first time I've seen someone call Franklin anything other than one of the most brilliant diplomats alive at the time.[/QUOTE] Given that it involved the birth of the most powerful, wealthiest and (arguably) one of the best countries on earth, it's no surprise the early years are viewed with some scatterings of myths and history distorting for political purposes. When you boil everything down, most great civilizations weren't really great at all. Most ancient Greeks were a superstitious people that constantly fought each other. The Romans had people and animals tortured to death for fun in public arenas. The renaissance was full of religious bigotry and devastating wars. And the American Revolution inspired by the ideals of the enlightenment was really just a bunch of colonies founded by religious lunatics and rich white men who said that black people were legally not human. As for Britain, they used their cunning to blackmail large sections of Afro-Eurasia into becoming colonies and played off various rulers against each other while pouncing on the spoils. If somebody disagreed they would bomb his house with a gunboat.