The Spanish Government “will not allow” and “will not negotiate” on Catalonia’s self-determination v - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43202485]Independence.[/QUOTE] You make it sound like it's something they all want. 50 - 57% according to the OP. If say the subject was CA and NY would you be so sympathetic to bits breaking off the US? Fine, let them have their referendum, but then ignore it lol

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202645]You make it sound like it's something they all want. 50 - 57% according to the OP. If say the subject was CA and NY would you be so sympathetic to bits breaking off the US? Fine, let them have their referendum, but then ignore it lol[/QUOTE] Yes, I would be completely sympathetic to them breaking off. In fact, there are (though small) break away movements in New Hampshire, Alaska and California already. And 50% is a big number of the population, and that's at the smaller estimate. Don't treat it as if it's just a handful of people living there asking for it.

[QUOTE=sgman91;43202428]Dat 25% unemployment rate. I honestly don't even know how a country functions with 1/4 of the population not working. I mean, that's right around what the US had during the Great depression...[/QUOTE] Yup and youth unemployment is about 50% I think. But at least they're getting prepared for life after everything is done by robots. Also the Catalan numbers are similar to the national ones. [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43202661]Yes, I would be completely sympathetic to them breaking off. In fact, there are (though small) break away movements in New Hampshire, Alaska and California already. And 50% is a big number of the population, and that's at the smaller estimate. Don't treat it as if it's just a handful of people living there asking for it.[/QUOTE] But do we really want a world with thousands or tens of thousands of, "micro-states"? How would we interact with aliens in a concerted way? Can you imagine how long it'd take to get the Olympics started each time (or the Eurovision song contest!)?

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202678]Yup and youth unemployment is about 50% I think. But at least they're getting prepared for life after everything is done by robots. [/QUOTE] Post scarcity is years away, if it happens at all.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202678] But do we really want a world with thousands or tens of thousands of, "micro-states"? [/quote] It'd function just as well with the 200 some states already here. I don't see how it would really matter. If anything, it would make regions better governed where more local laws and the economy is run by locals, the people who know the place best. Catalonia could raise and lower its taxes as to what it sees is better for its people than what Madrid would. [QUOTE=kuydna;43202678]How would we interact with aliens in a concerted way? Can you imagine how long it'd take to get the Olympics started each time (or the Eurovision song contest!)?[/QUOTE] This really has no relevance to whether they should or not. Just don't watch the olympics then.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43202615]Given that it involved the birth of the most powerful, wealthiest and (arguably) one of the best countries on earth, it's no surprise the early years are viewed with some scatterings of myths and history distorting for political purposes. When you boil everything down, most great civilizations weren't really great at all. Most ancient Greeks were a superstitious people that constantly fought each other. The Romans had people and animals tortured to death for fun in public arenas. The renaissance was full of religious bigotry and devastating wars. And the American Revolution inspired by the ideals of the enlightenment was really just a bunch of colonies founded by religious lunatics and rich white men who said that black people were legally not human. As for Britain, they used their cunning to blackmail large sections of Afro-Eurasia into becoming colonies and played off various rulers against each other while pouncing on the spoils. If somebody disagreed they would bomb his house with a gunboat.[/QUOTE] Specifically, I'm asking exactly what Franklin did wrong to cause the war to happen. [editline]16th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;43202140]Schools over here don't cover Franklin. And I don't know why they would.[/QUOTE] Well he was a pretty smart cookie. Some would put him up there with other renaissance men like da Vinci or Washington Carver.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43194345]Yep. If it weren't for Hamilton and Jefferson, there would have been civil war between the states every 3 days. It was basically the HRE for the first couple of years.[/QUOTE] Thomas Jefferson was an Anti-Federalist [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43200932]So was Mexico yet they fought for independence.[/QUOTE] Mexico and Catalonia are pretty different situations, but Catalonia has its own language and culture, so I guess this kind of helps your point.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43193852]The American revolution was at first, a movement for autonomy that got fucked up because Benjamin Franklin didn't do his job right and failed to talk to the British crown about the colonies issues.[/QUOTE] I thought it was Parliament taking a hard line and refusing to give in to the demands of what it viewed as an illegal organization, then calling for the military to reign them in because that had nearly always worked in the past.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43202419]They already have a large degree of autonomy, they've had decades of concessions made to them - what more do they want?[/QUOTE] hey man obviously they don't have enough if 50% of the population is protesting. if 50% of your people are protesting that means you are doing something wrong and should address their grievances immediately.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43203962]hey man obviously they don't have enough if 50% of the population is protesting. if 50% of your people are protesting that means you are doing something wrong and should address their grievances immediately.[/QUOTE] 1.6m protestors is more like 25%

[QUOTE=kuydna;43208957]1.6m protestors is more like 25%[/QUOTE] 25% of the population protesting is a lot.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43208973]25% of the population protesting is a lot.[/QUOTE] Knowing Catalans they're protesting a lack of gay porn on daytime TV and shortage of cocaine in schools. They're generally a bunch of liberals and left-wing nuts. Madrid needs to send in the tanks if they can't be logical.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43209017]Knowing Catalans they're protesting a lack of gay porn on daytime TV and shortage of cocaine in schools. They're generally a bunch of liberals and left-wing nuts. Madrid needs to send in the tanks if they can't be logical.[/QUOTE] is this dain???

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43209103]is this dain???[/QUOTE] ?

I think that the EU should step in this one, Doesn't Spain borrow money from the EMU? Catalonia, if they want, should be able to be indepedent because it's people are very different from the Spanish, and they have a rich history that includes being free. I'd say the same if Flanders wanted to secede from Belgium but the Wallonians wouldn't let them.

[QUOTE=Valiantttt;43209343]I think that the EU should step in this one, Doesn't Spain borrow money from the EMU? Catalonia, if they want, should be able to be indepedent because it's people are very different from the Spanish, and they have a rich history that includes being free. I'd say the same if Flanders wanted to secede from Belgium but the Wallonians wouldn't let them.[/QUOTE] So basically the richer members like Germany and Holland can use their money, via the EU, to break apart the less successful members Valiantttttt? This right here is why we need UKIP in this country; we need to run far and fast from this EU nonsense. What right have a bunch of unelected "former" moaists in Brussels to micromanage the affairs of their member-states? Where does it stop?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43208973]25% of the population protesting is a lot.[/QUOTE] Is not enough. The incoming new citizen security law is going to return us to the old dictatorship again.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43209750]So basically the richer members like Germany and Holland can use their money, via the EU, to break apart the less successful members Valiantttttt? This right here is why we need UKIP in this country; we need to run far and fast from this EU nonsense. What right have a bunch of unelected "former" moaists in Brussels to micromanage the affairs of their member-states? Where does it stop?[/QUOTE] Well, if the Spanish government cannot do the right thing then the world needs to step in. If that means that the EU has to do so because the Spanish government would basically be repressing the Catalonians then let it be so.

[QUOTE=Valiantttt;43209861]Well, if the Spanish government cannot do the right thing then the world needs to step in. If that means that the EU has to do so because the Spanish government would basically be repressing the Catalonians then let it be so.[/QUOTE] The EU is repressing us all for Germany's benefit. It's all going to end very badly. [editline]17th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;43209837]Is not enough. The incoming new citizen security law is going to return us to the old dictatorship again.[/QUOTE] Agreed, this is what decades of oppressive liberal / left-wing stupidity leads to; a backlash from the other extreme.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43209951]The EU is repressing us all for Germany's benefit. It's all going to end very badly. [/QUOTE] You are totally right. Germany will go like 'AUNCHLUSS' one day and we will all be annexed. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Alemania_imperial.png[/img] I am sorry that you have discovered Germany's dark secret.

[QUOTE=Valiantttt;43210039]You are totally right. Germany will go like 'AUNCHLUSS' one day and we will all be annexed. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Alemania_imperial.png[/img] I am sorry that you have discovered Germany's dark secret.[/QUOTE] They'll fail again this time. They never learn.... How the EU was conceived.... [video=youtube;yQdzexzbumc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQdzexzbumc[/video] [editline]17th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Valiantttt;43210039]You are totally right. Germany will go like 'AUNCHLUSS' one day and we will all be annexed. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Alemania_imperial.png[/img] I am sorry that you have discovered Germany's dark secret.[/QUOTE] Ok you were being sarcastic, but who really benefits from the EU the most? How does it help your country? The Germans failed twice at imposing their dominion on the continent with force, now they're trying to do it via paper-shuffling antics. Maybe the UK should get together with Spain and start an alternative union (everyone's invited, even the French!) but one of equals - a concept Germany never managed to comprehend.

Maybe if there were nations other than Germany in the EU capable of bailing out the other nations, there wouldn't be such a 'problem' as you describe (which doesn't actually exist anyway).

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43212107]Maybe if there were nations other than Germany in the EU capable of bailing out the other nations, there wouldn't be such a 'problem' as you describe (which doesn't actually exist anyway).[/QUOTE] It wasn't my theory it was Valiantttt's - German taxpayers are already getting fed up with sending billions of Euros to Southern Europe, this can't go on forever. The idea of using even more money to redraw borders is unrealistic.

[QUOTE=kuydna;43213036]It wasn't my theory it was Valiantttt's - German taxpayers are already getting fed up with sending billions of Euros to Southern Europe, this can't go on forever. The idea of using even more money to redraw borders is unrealistic.[/QUOTE] The European Union is inevitably going to become a state and that was the point behind creating it.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43213558]The European Union is inevitably going to become a state and that was the point behind creating it.[/QUOTE] I thought the point behind it was to integrate the economies, specifically coal and steel industries, of Western Europe to prevent another bloody World War?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43213889]I thought the point behind it was to integrate the economies, specifically coal and steel industries, of Western Europe to prevent another bloody World War?[/QUOTE] The steel and coal community was basically the first step in creating a federation. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union[/url] [quote]After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism that had devastated the continent.[26] The 1948 Hague Congress was a pivotal moment in European federal history, as it led to the creation of the European Movement International and also of the College of Europe, a place where Europe's future leaders would live and study together.[27] 1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe", starting with the aim of eliminating the possibility of further wars between its member states by means of pooling the national heavy industries.[28] [/quote] The idea of a Pan-European state (something I heavily support) has been floating around in various forms since at least the enlightenment. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community[/url] [quote]Schuman proposed that "Franco-German production of coal and steel as a whole be placed under a common High Authority, within the framework of an organisation open to the participation of the other countries of Europe." Such an act was intended to help economic growth and cement peace between France and Germany, who were historic enemies. Coal and steel were vital resources needed for a country to wage war, so pooling those resources between two such enemies was seen as more than symbolic.[2][3] Schuman saw the decision of the French government on his proposal as the first example of a democratic and supranational Community, a new development in world history.[4][5] The plan was also seen by some, like Monnet, who crossed out Reuter's mention of 'supranational' in the draft and inserted 'federation', as a first step to a "European federation".[2][3][/quote]

[QUOTE=kuydna;43209951]Agreed, this is what decades of oppressive liberal / left-wing stupidity leads to; a backlash from the other extreme.[/QUOTE] Fact: It wasn't really left-wing, but center-right wing. The true left wing has never come to the power. But yes, the past one is also responsible of the actual situation for deny the crysis (and much more).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43213979]The steel and coal community was basically the first step in creating a federation. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union[/url] The idea of a Pan-European state (something I heavily support) has been floating around in various forms since at least the enlightenment. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community[/url][/QUOTE] In reading the citations, it seems like the idea of making the EU into a united country was, at the time, just a hope down the line for some of the creators, not the end goal at the time. Most of it is just talking about insuring peace between France and Germany.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43209103]is this dain???[/QUOTE] Nah - he was on the more homosexual end of the bi spectrum, IIRC. Now what kind of demented thought process that would leave him supporting folks who'd want him jailed at best is beyond me.

[QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;43214014]Fact: It wasn't really left-wing, but center-right wing. The true left wing has never come to the power. But yes, the past one is also responsible of the actual situation for deny the crysis (and much more).[/QUOTE] No true scotsman fallacy