Minimum-wage campaign for $15/h could speed arrival of robot-powered restaurants and reduced number
205 replies, posted
[QUOTE=June;48495333]The solution is painfully simple; a universal basic income. Everyone over the age of say 18 gets 25 grand a year, problem solved. Robots can't do things like design or program or conduct research so if you're not happy with your 25 grand you can go to school (which should be free) and you can get a job being a scientist or an artist or a teacher or whatever.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it interesting that Milton Friedman, a total free market advocate, was one of the biggest supporters of a guaranteed basic income in the form of a negative income tax.
[QUOTE=June;48495333]The solution is painfully simple; a universal basic income. Everyone over the age of say 18 gets 25 grand a year, problem solved. Robots can't do things like design or program or conduct research so if you're not happy with your 25 grand you can go to school (which should be free) and you can get a job being a scientist or an artist or a teacher or whatever.
[editline]19th August 2015[/editline]
because the transportation industry is massive??? it's like one of the biggest industries in the us[/QUOTE]
I agree that the solution is simple, implementing it is going to be nearly impossible as people will fight it tooth and nail.
You're right. I totally blanked on that for a moment. Though, aren't you saying it'll be a relatively easy transition for more fully fledged automation to take place? Why do you think one will be bad but the other won't be?
I think when automated transportation comes around, that'll be very tumultuous, and we really won't be ready for it. When the next stage comes around, we still won't be ready for it.
Political stupidity is one of the reasons I'm for banning automation efforts.
That and I think it's incredibly naive.
We could just wait for the next great depression and/or the food riots and see if Congress finally decides it's time to do something about mass structural unemployment :v:
How do we implement guaranteed basic wage for everyone? Where do we get all that money from?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48495572]I agree that the solution is simple, implementing it is going to be nearly impossible as people will fight it tooth and nail.
You're right. I totally blanked on that for a moment. Though, aren't you saying it'll be a relatively easy transition for more fully fledged automation to take place? Why do you think one will be bad but the other won't be?
I think when automated transportation comes around, that'll be very tumultuous, and we really won't be ready for it. When the next stage comes around, we still won't be ready for it.[/QUOTE]
I actually a agree with you, people are going to be very very against the idea of a universal basic income and i think that's the main reason why you'll find the media paints self driving cars in such a negative light; because it's the first step.
I guess i didn't mean that'll it'll be an easy transition, just that the solution is simple. Unfortunately i think unemployment is going to have to reach astounding rates before the people in power even consider universal income, and even then it might take things like massive rioting before they actually do it. I think it'll happen sooner than later though, in 20 years when all transportation is automated you're going to have a lot of angry people without jobs and I hope when it happens they'll be demanding universal income over something stupid like banning robots
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48495689]How do we implement guaranteed basic wage for everyone? Where do we get all that money from?[/QUOTE]
Taxes on the people where all the money went in the first place. In other words, we'll never even think about it unless the lower class gets so poor that the economy implodes.
What a surprise, you're telling me magically raising the minimum wage to more than most EMS medics and firefighters make is going to result in a loss of jobs? If only someone had warned us about this! Where does everyone think this money is going to come from, and why does everyone think this is justified? Minimum wage isn't meant to be something you raise a family and pay cash for school with, it's meant to be something you can survive on while you learn a valuable skill and get a real job. Artificially inflating the minimum wage to $15/hr is just going to result in more layoffs and hour-cutting and less hiring.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;48493257]I'm glad I'm a programmer, the machines cant replace me![/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article163[/url]
Even Programmers aren't safe, at least low level ones anyway.
[QUOTE=June;48495333]The solution is painfully simple; a universal basic income. Everyone over the age of say 18 gets 25 grand a year, problem solved. Robots can't do things like design or program or conduct research so if you're not happy with your 25 grand you can go to school (which should be free) and you can get a job being a scientist or an artist or a teacher or whatever.[/QUOTE]
What about people who don't want to contribute their hard earned tax money towards giving people $25,000 a year to do literally nothing?
[QUOTE=srobins;48495758]What about people who don't want to contribute their hard earned tax money towards giving people $25,000 a year to do literally nothing?[/QUOTE]
too bad?? I mean the other solution is letting the unemployment rate sky rocket past great depression levels till the people riot because half the population is homeless and starving
[QUOTE=June;48495820]too bad?? I mean the other solution is letting the unemployment rate sky rocket past great depression levels till the people riot because half the population is homeless and starving[/QUOTE]
In what world do you live in where the only two options America has are: 1) 50% of the population dies of starvation and 2) everyone gets a magic check for $25,000 a year?
[QUOTE=srobins;48495758]What about people who don't want to contribute their hard earned tax money towards giving people $25,000 a year to do literally nothing?[/QUOTE]
Taxes, while no one likes it, is a fundamental piece of any modern society. Those people wouldn't get to choose whether to contribute or not.
The thing is, automation is going to happen sooner or later. Unemployment will be an huge issue all around the world. If the society does not employ a system that is capable of handling those large unmployment numbers, many problems will start to occur. The economy will suffer a major blow if people won't have money to spend and crime will rise tremendously.
Typically, people don't like doing absolutely nothing, and humans are somewhat materialistic and want nice things such as iphones etc. Universal basic income doesn't grant you these things, you would have to actually work for that.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495743]What a surprise, you're telling me magically raising the minimum wage to more than most EMS medics and firefighters make is going to result in a loss of jobs? If only someone had warned us about this! Where does everyone think this money is going to come from, and why does everyone think this is justified? Minimum wage isn't meant to be something you raise a family and pay cash for school with, it's meant to be something you can survive on while you learn a valuable skill and get a real job. Artificially inflating the minimum wage to $15/hr is just going to result in more layoffs and hour-cutting and less hiring.[/QUOTE]
idk maybe the money is comming from the massive profit mcdonalds and all other fast food places make from their massive profit margins, plus this is purely hypathetical, mcdonalds for all the automation they have, they haven't replaced the need for employees to physically be there to make food nor do i think they can justify a 50,000$ robot for a burger flipper
also some of these automations are pure garbage, [quote]Pizzeria’s Miller predicts that drone delivery systems will eventually get rid of the need to come into a restaurant at all[/quote]
ya what city is gonna allow hot pizzas to be airlifted around over peoples heads? plus most dominos and other chain pizza places are in suburban areas, and its not unusual to drive 10-15 miles to deliver, unless every dominos will spend tons of money on expensive high power transmitter and broadcast licenses, drones are out because they don't have large enough ranges. the whole drone delivery thing doesn't work with 99% of delivery jobs today, theres very small niche stuff like hospital pharmacies delivering between buildings, but everything i've seen so far is stupidly optimistic
[QUOTE=srobins;48495743]What a surprise, you're telling me magically raising the minimum wage to more than most EMS medics and firefighters make is going to result in a loss of jobs? If only someone had warned us about this! Where does everyone think this money is going to come from, and why does everyone think this is justified? Minimum wage isn't meant to be something you raise a family and pay cash for school with, it's meant to be something you can survive on while you learn a valuable skill and get a real job. Artificially inflating the minimum wage to $15/hr is just going to result in more layoffs and hour-cutting and less hiring.[/QUOTE]
Just because some professions are underpaid doesn't mean unskilled workers deserve to work for money that can't even support basic living standards.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495868]In what world do you live in where the only two options America has are: 1) 50% of the population dies of starvation and 2) everyone gets a magic check for $25,000 a year?[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that when the majority of jobs become automated, something is going to have to change. What do you do for a living? Chances are you'd be one of the people left jobless and struggling to survive.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48495877]Just because some professions are underpaid doesn't mean unskilled workers deserve to work for money that can't even support basic living standards.[/QUOTE]
What do you define as basic living standards? Because a lot of the poor people I encounter on a daily basis still have nicer clothes than I do, drive better cars and have brand new smartphones, all while raising children which isn't particularly cheap.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495743]What a surprise, you're telling me magically raising the minimum wage to more than most EMS medics and firefighters make is going to result in a loss of jobs? If only someone had warned us about this! Where does everyone think this money is going to come from, and why does everyone think this is justified? Minimum wage isn't meant to be something you raise a family and pay cash for school with, it's meant to be something you can survive on while you learn a valuable skill and get a real job. Artificially inflating the minimum wage to $15/hr is just going to result in more layoffs and hour-cutting and less hiring.[/QUOTE]
You realize the economy doesn't work like that and minimum wage jobs were more numerous than the positions you move up to, right? You realize, that not everyone gets to move up to a bigger, better job, right?
[editline]19th August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=srobins;48495890]What do you define as basic living standards? Because a lot of the poor people I encounter on a daily basis still have nicer clothes than I do, drive better cars and have brand new smartphones, all while raising children which isn't particularly cheap.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see the poor people you know because the poor people you know do not at all fit the description of the poor people I know.
[QUOTE=June;48495885]I'm saying that when the majority of jobs become automated, something is going to have to change. What do you do for a living? Chances are you'd be one of the people left jobless and struggling to survive.[/QUOTE]
I'm in medicine and I do programming as a side-venture, both of which are skills that require training and some level of effort, and both of which are extremely unlikely to be automated, but that's beside the point. If you're phrasing the basic income question as being a solution to the future of automation, then yeah I can see that being reasonable in such an advanced and wholly different society. I just don't think it's something that is feasible or justified in the near future.
this is all very hypothetical and the majority of jobs aren't going to be automated anytime soon, but things like the transportation industry might become automated a lot sooner than you'd think and it's going to cause some major problems
[QUOTE=srobins;48495868]In what world do you live in where the only two options America has are: 1) 50% of the population dies of starvation and 2) everyone gets a magic check for $25,000 a year?[/QUOTE]
He lives in the real world. As do you.
You may not like this, but basic jobs are going to be hard to come by. Jobs period are going to be hard to come by. When all that's left is high skill jobs, there's really, truly not going to be enough to around, even we all strove to create new ones at every opportunity, we simply won't have enough jobs for everyone.
What do you think will happen?
[QUOTE=srobins;48495890]What do you define as basic living standards? Because a lot of the poor people I encounter on a daily basis still have nicer clothes than I do, drive better cars and have brand new smartphones, all while raising children which isn't particularly cheap.[/QUOTE]
how bout you actually live in low income areas then, most people are scraping by, anecdotal evidence is not a good basis for defining poverty
[QUOTE=srobins;48495901]I'm in medicine and I do programming as a side-venture, both of which are skills that require training and some level of effort, and both of which are extremely unlikely to be automated, but that's beside the point. If you're phrasing the basic income question as being a solution to the future of automation, then yeah I can see that being reasonable in such an advanced and wholly different society. I just don't think it's something that is feasible or justified in the near future.[/QUOTE]
You are incorrect. Both of those are very capable and possible of being automated.
You will not see all doctors or nurses lose their jobs. Just a lot of them.
Programming may be a fairly safe space, but it's not impervious.
Most careers will see a lot of forms of automation because guess what? People suck at doing things.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495890]What do you define as basic living standards? Because a lot of the poor people I encounter on a daily basis still have nicer clothes than I do, drive better cars and have brand new smartphones, all while raising children which isn't particularly cheap.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you're talking about poor people, then. I know some poor people and it's not glorious, one has no electricity and the other has an empty fridge. One is driving a car that was gifted to her and using a smart phone she saved up for a year to buy.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48495896]You realize the economy doesn't work like that and minimum wage jobs were more numerous than the positions you move up to, right? You realize, that not everyone gets to move up to a bigger, better job, right?
[editline]19th August 2015[/editline]
I'd like to see the poor people you know because the poor people you know do not at all fit the description of the poor people I know.[/QUOTE]
There are different types of "poor", people living in New York City section 8 housing are living in a completely different world than the "poor" of Phoenix, AZ. There's a lot of relativity and change from area to area in what the standard of living is for low-income people and families, I just think people should be aware of those differences when discussing poverty as a whole because there's a lot of variation and not all "poor" people are struggling to eat wearing 3rd generation hand-me-down clothes. And yes I understand that as you move up the food-chain in terms of promotion and job growth, there are less positions available; it's the nature of business and competition. Not everyone is destined to be a CEO or manager, and until you hone the skills and experience necessary to do so, you're going to stay where you are.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495890]What do you define as basic living standards? Because a lot of the poor people I encounter on a daily basis still have nicer clothes than I do, drive better cars and have brand new smartphones, all while raising children which isn't particularly cheap.[/QUOTE]
Do they manage to buy all that while working minimum wage? Because if they do, I need to know their secrets.
[QUOTE=srobins;48495918]There are different types of "poor", people living in New York City section 8 housing are living in a completely different world than the "poor" of Phoenix, AZ. There's a lot of relativity and change from area to area in what the standard of living is for low-income people and families, I just think people should be aware of those differences when discussing poverty as a whole because there's a lot of variation and not all "poor" people are struggling to eat wearing 3rd generation hand-me-down clothes. And yes I understand that as you move up the food-chain in terms of promotion and job growth, there are less positions available; it's the nature of business and competition. Not everyone is destined to be a CEO or manager, and until you hone the skills and experience necessary to do so, you're going to stay where you are.[/QUOTE]
poor in Phoenix and poor in new york are still poor in the specific place they live. its a cliche argument that the poor in america shouldn't complain because they're not in africa, but they're still poor and still suffering because of it
[QUOTE=srobins;48495918]There are different types of "poor", people living in New York City section 8 housing are living in a completely different world than the "poor" of Phoenix, AZ. There's a lot of relativity and change from area to area in what the standard of living is for low-income people and families, I just think people should be aware of those differences when discussing poverty as a whole because there's a lot of variation and not all "poor" people are struggling to eat wearing 3rd generation hand-me-down clothes. And yes I understand that as you move up the food-chain in terms of promotion and job growth, there are less positions available; it's the nature of business and competition. Not everyone is destined to be a CEO or manager, and until you hone the skills and experience necessary to do so, you're going to stay where you are.[/QUOTE]
Different types of poor people? Back in my day, when you said a word it used to mean something.
Honestly I think when we get to a certain level of automation we will have to reconsider so many things like our economic systems and perhaps even the way governments function.
Exciting stuff to think about. Perhaps we can draw a line at a certain year and say any heavy equipment, robotics, specialty tooling and so on manufactured from that year forward must be taxed for automation. We already do that with emissions, so why not tax based on how many people it's theoretically replacing or something.
[QUOTE=Sableye;48495942]poor in Phoenix and poor in new york are still poor in the specific place they live. its a cliche argument that the poor in america shouldn't complain because they're not in africa, but they're still poor and still suffering because of it[/QUOTE]
My argument isn't that America's poor have it better off than Africa's poor, I'm saying that there are different levels of poverty throughout the country and people should be aware of that when they discuss poverty, or at least define the level of poverty and standard of living that they're talking about when they do talk about poverty.
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