France effectively outlaws Israel boycotting - Polidicks

[QUOTE=theevilldeadII;48995701]so Free Speech is out the window in france then[/QUOTE] Criticism of Israel is anti semitism. Crazy.

[QUOTE=FlandersNed;48999716]If Israel is committing genocide then they're doing the world's worst job at it.[/QUOTE] Genocide is the systematic killing of a people based on nationality, religion, race, culture, etc. Just because they're not going full concentration camp status right now doesn't make it any less of a genocide. They are purposely harming a group of people solely because of their nationality and culture with the intent to remove them from existence. It is a genocide, regardless of the current pace. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative and agenda I guess. Maybe try understanding how genocide works first idk? [url]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/tenstagesofgenocide.html[/url] (Or better yet, read the actual genocide convention material. The 10 stages article is more of a in brief sort of deal) Welcome to number 10 on the list btw. [url]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/12waystodenygenocide.html[/url]

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48999019]Okay, look. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory"]Wikipedia[/URL]. In the real world freemasons control shit (and have no special affinity to Israel or Jews), Jews only control Israel and there are no secret lodges and interest groups forcing European governments into passing pro-Israeli laws. People who hold such opinions, even if they are not aware of it, are airing antisemitic conspiracy theories that have been around since the Elders of Zion got published. And the reason more and more French Jews want to leave is exactly that. Antisemitism is getting so casual people don't even realize they're doing it. [THUMB]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Il_pleut_sur_le_Temple.jpg/800px-Il_pleut_sur_le_Temple.jpg[/THUMB][/QUOTE] Congratulations on completely missing my point. He made no link between Jews and the masonic lodges that supposedly support Israel, it's actually you who makes that link out of nowhere despite saying there are no affiliations between the two. You're the one bringing those stupid conspiracy theories into this.

[QUOTE=draugur;49001056]Genocide is the systematic killing of a people based on nationality, religion, race, culture, etc. Just because they're not going full concentration camp status right now doesn't make it any less of a genocide. They are purposely harming a group of people solely because of their nationality and culture with the intent to remove them from existence. It is a genocide, regardless of the current pace. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative and agenda I guess. Maybe try understanding how genocide works first idk? [URL]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/tenstagesofgenocide.html[/URL] (Or better yet, read the actual genocide convention material. The 10 stages article is more of a in brief sort of deal) Welcome to number 10 on the list btw. [URL]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/12waystodenygenocide.html[/URL][/QUOTE] They're doing a horrible job because they let them into their society, let them vote, let them form political parties that actually hold seats, give up land to them in an attempt to stop violence, they prosecute their own soldiers for killing innocent palestinians, etc. etc. etc.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;48998446]Most likely because its the only country a group of citizens are trying to boycott. Should be sanctioning and boycotting a bunch of Arab countries though.[/QUOTE] Doesnt matter, its very fucked up. If you boycott without actually physically touching/harming people, or inciting people to be violent, then it shouldnt be illegal. While I dont know the circumstances that led to this particular ban, maybe they WERE those things, that doesnt mean it should be a law so others who do it peacefully cant.

[QUOTE=_Axel;49001281]Congratulations on completely missing my point. He made no link between Jews and the masonic lodges that supposedly support Israel, it's actually you who makes that link out of nowhere despite saying there are no affiliations between the two. You're the one bringing those stupid conspiracy theories into this.[/QUOTE] Let's review, shall we? Here's the original post: [QUOTE=Scarabix;48995791]I'll have you know that support for israel in France is pretty much limited to jews that want to leave, some masonic lodges and interest groups. It just so happens that the latter are pretty influent around those parts, which is to say, they make laws.[/QUOTE] So according to Scarabix the only people in France who support Israel are: 1) Jews that want to leave- why mention they want to leave, except to imply they're not really loyal French citizens anyway? 2) Some masonic lodges- again, why even mention the Freemasons? What makes them important enough to mention? And more importantly why would any Masonic lodges support Israel, and how would Scarabix know about it? Have they made an official statement to the effect? Or is it just something "everyone knows"? I googled "france freemasons support israel" and couldn't find anything except conspiracy sites linking the Masons to Jews so. You know. 3) The mysterious interest groups that are pretty influent and they make laws. Which are in favor of Israel even though everyone in France except the Jews and the Masons are against it. This also doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory at all. So what is the point I'm missing here? What was Scarabix really trying to say when he named those three groups? [editline]28th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49001535]Doesnt matter, its very fucked up. If you boycott without actually physically touching/harming people, or inciting people to be violent, then it shouldnt be illegal. While I dont know the circumstances that led to this particular ban, maybe they WERE those things, that doesnt mean it should be a law so others who do it peacefully cant.[/QUOTE] That's not actually true. I see you're American, so you probably grew up believing that the right to free speech is one of the most basic human rights and should be protected above all else, no matter the cost. But even putting aside the fact that's not true even in the United States, where free speech is still limited by other laws (copyright laws, defamation, harassment end so on), the fact is other countries can and do set a different balance between individual freedoms and the greater good. So, let's forget Israel for a second. Suppose there was a group that was pushing for people to boycott all Muslim owned businesses. Are these people entitled to their own opinions and the right to express them because no one gets hurt? No. Because Muslim business owners are getting hurt, and society is entitled to pass laws that protect minorities from being harmed by organized racism. Especially in nations where its a real thing that happens and needs addressing. Does it justify outlawing BDS? Honestly, I'm not sure, because it's mostly not racism, it's politics. But then again there are French Jews and French who do business with Israel who are being targeted by activists. And I have to ask myself: are there any more BDS movements targeting any other nations with bad human rights records or long messy wars under their belts? China? Saudi Arabia? Russia? The United States? Because I haven't heard about any. Why do you think that is?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49001763]And I have to ask myself: are there any more BDS movements targeting any other nations with bad human rights records or long messy wars under their belts? China? Saudi Arabia? Russia? The United States? Because I haven't heard about any. Why do you think that is?[/QUOTE] just because other nations with records as bad as Israel aren't being directly targeted (that I know of) doesn't mean israel is being targeted just for being jewish. israel isn't exactly a nation known for being peaceful and kind to its neighbors, more for demolishing people's homes and killing innocent people with rockets and claiming innocence.

[QUOTE=Quark:;49004038]just because other nations with records as bad as Israel aren't being directly targeted (that I know of) doesn't mean israel is being targeted just for being jewish. israel isn't exactly a nation known for being peaceful and kind to its neighbors, more for demolishing people's homes and killing innocent people with rockets and claiming innocence.[/QUOTE] So why is it being targeted? Enlighten us! In my opinion Israel is targeted because of: 1) Real, existent human rights abuses. Most of the claims don't come out of thin air, and there is much legitimate criticism to be made of Israel. 2) Left-wing love of the 'rebel' - The left in particular love the idea of a rebellion against something and think of it romantically. They see a rebellion as being a noble cause, and are willing to overlook the brutal elements of it because of this. 3) Anti-Americanism - Particularly on the European left, people see America in such a negative light that they are willing to support any movement that goes against 'America' or 'The West', no matter how contrary that movement is to their own values, on, for example, rights of gay people or of women. For these people, their key motivator is a movement to stick it to the Americans. Israel is largely seen as being wholly backed up by the US (despite a cooling in US-Israeli relations recently), and so anti-Israel movements are seen as anti-American by association. 4) Long-running anti-Semitism - As ScumBunny has pointed out, the same tired old tropes of Jewish control of the world/media/finances, free masons, ideas of Jews not being patriotic towards their country/undermining it (the stab in the back theory of WW1) - Have all been revived in this atmosphere once again, particularly due to the influence of genuinely anti-Semitic Muslim/Arab groups in the anti-Israel campaigns. 5) Israel is strong and beat its neighbours in war. People love an underdog, and so support the losers. 6) An easy cop-out of accusations of anti-Semitism/discrimination - Claiming that they were only referring to 'Zionists' or the ridiculous claim that all criticism of Israel is called anti-Semitism to try and dismiss concerns.

[QUOTE=draugur;49001056]Genocide is the systematic killing of a people based on nationality, religion, race, culture, etc. Just because they're not going full concentration camp status right now doesn't make it any less of a genocide. [B]They are purposely harming a group of people solely because of their nationality and culture with the intent to remove them from existence.[/B] It is a genocide, regardless of the current pace. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative and agenda I guess. Maybe try understanding how genocide works first idk? [url]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/tenstagesofgenocide.html[/url] (Or better yet, read the actual genocide convention material. The 10 stages article is more of a in brief sort of deal) Welcome to number 10 on the list btw. [url]http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/12waystodenygenocide.html[/url][/QUOTE] Evidence please.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49004403]Evidence please.[/QUOTE] Well, if we're using Genocide Watch's definitions lets take a look at their latest [URL="http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_Report_2012.pdf"]Countries at Risk report[/URL], where Israel and the Palestinians are both listed only under Polarization (Stage 5), which is defined as: [QUOTE]5. POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. Extremist terrorism targets moderates, intimidating and silencing the center. Moderates from the perpetrators’ own group are most able to stop genocide, so are the first to be arrested and killed. Prevention may mean security protection for moderate leaders or assistance to human rights groups. Assets of extremists may be seized, and visas for international travel denied to them. Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions.[/QUOTE] So something that may lead to genocide down the line, and is unfortunately true for both sides of the conflict in our case. Israel is of course not listed under any of the actual genocide lists (Stage 6 Preparation/Potential Massacres, Stage 7 Extermination and stage 8 Denial). Interestingly China *is* listed under phase 6, for potential massacres against the Falun Gong and Uighers. Is there any BDS against China?

[QUOTE=_Axel;48996724]Dude what the fuck, just citing "some Freemason lodges" as being supportive of Israel's policies, without even saying that those lodges are controlled by or even contains Jew, makes one antisemitic? Or is it the fact he also refers to "Jews that want to leave" as being supportive? Is that what you mean by strongly implying Nazi conspiracies?[/QUOTE] I am sorry for the misunderstanding I appear to have caused. I am only speaking from personal (read: anecdotal) experience when I say that Israël support among gentiles is more often than not a staple of GOF affiliation in France. I do not ressent the desire for some jews to run to the hills in the wake of percieved persecution which I cannot properly gauge as someone who is not a jew. Interests groups is a vague term which is not secluded to conspiracy talk. They come in all types of shapes, for instance the LDJ is what I would describe as "rather shady", as opposed to more moderate pro-Israël groups. I feel compelled to add that I do not parttake in anti-israël activism, and having never depended on Israeli products, my impact as an Israeli boycotter would be limited. I do however believe that silencing voices for boycotts of any kind sets a dangerous precedent

I don't really understand these remote boycotts. Like, what do you hope to achieve by boycotting Israel in FRANCE? I just don't see how this could ever work. Do they hope Israel will see that some people in France are upset and cease action? No. They won't give a shit.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;49007386]I am sorry for the misunderstanding I appear to have caused. I am only speaking from personal (read: anecdotal) experience when I say that Israël support among gentiles is more often than not a staple of GOF affiliation in France. I do not ressent the desire for some jews to run to the hills in the wake of percieved persecution which I cannot properly gauge as someone who is not a jew. Interests groups is a vague term which is not secluded to conspiracy talk. They come in all types of shapes, for instance the LDJ is what I would describe as "rather shady", as opposed to more moderate pro-Israël groups. I feel compelled to add that I do not parttake in anti-israël activism, and having never depended on Israeli products, my impact as an Israeli boycotter would be limited. I do however believe that silencing voices for boycotts of any kind sets a dangerous precedent[/QUOTE] I appreciate the sentiment, but that's the thing about casual racism: you don't even know when you're doing it. Suppose, for example, I were to say this about Israelis: "The only people who support peace with the Palestinians are Israeli Arabs who oppose the existence of Israel anyway, and extreme left human rights movements and political parties who are all funded by foreign interest groups. Unfortunately they control the liberal media". By the way, while untrue that's a claim you can hear from a lot of right wing Israelis. So, reading this, why would I bother specifying that Israeli Arabs oppose the existence of Israel except to imply that they're not loyal citizens and so their opinion doesn't count? Why would I suggest that all human rights groups are funded by foreign interests if not to imply their support of the peace process is part of a conspiracy by foreign powers to affect Israeli politics? And why would I claim that these organization have disproportional powerful over Israeli media except to again imply some conspiracy to sway Israeli public opinion? To the people making these exact claims those are perfectly reasonable and completely true statements. But they're still bullshit racism and conspiracy. So, getting back to your claim. Think about it for a moment an see if you can explain: 1) Why state that the Jews want to leave? How does them wanting to leave relate to their support of Israel that justifies you bothering to say it? 2) Why mention the Freemasons? Even if you have anecdotal knowledge of someone involved with them that is also pro-Israel, how does that justify a blanket statement about them being one of the rare few groups that support Israel? And again, I couldn't find any report of an affiliation between the GOF and Israel. Except in conspiracy theories. 3) Finally, Interest groups. Again, you claimed there are powerful interest groups that make the laws and are pro-Israel. If not a conspiracy theory, who exactly did you have in mind? As far as I know the LDJ is a Jewish vigilante group. Do they make the laws? Do they have any power over lawmakers? If not than again- why even mention them?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49007178]Well, if we're using Genocide Watch's definitions lets take a look at their latest [URL="http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_Report_2012.pdf"]Countries at Risk report[/URL], where Israel and the Palestinians are both listed only under Polarization (Stage 5), which is defined as: So something that may lead to genocide down the line, and is unfortunately true for both sides of the conflict in our case. Israel is of course not listed under any of the actual genocide lists (Stage 6 Preparation/Potential Massacres, Stage 7 Extermination and stage 8 Denial). Interestingly China *is* listed under phase 6, for potential massacres against the Falun Gong and Uighers. Is there any BDS against China?[/QUOTE] Soooooooo Israel is definitively NOT committing a genocide...

No.

If Israel is committing a genocide, they're doing a really poor job at it.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49008929]Soooooooo Israel is definitively NOT committing a genocide...[/QUOTE] Not according to Genocide Watch, whose definitions draugr chose to use as proof Israel does. At least as far as I could tell from their website.

[QUOTE=Lolkork;49010038]Israel shouldn't exist, creating it was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.[/QUOTE] So Jews have no right to self-determination? What other ethnic groups do you wish to extend this kind offer to?

[QUOTE=Lolkork;49010038]Israel shouldn't exist, creating it was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.[/QUOTE] Now that would essentially result in a genocide for jews.

[QUOTE=Lolkork;49011040]The Zionists had no right to get that location as their nation, it was Arabic[/QUOTE] It was Jewish before it was Arabic. Before the 1960s the word "Palestine" or "Palestinian" was basically always in reference to Jews, not Arabs. Take the "Palestine Foundation Fund" which was at one time a purely Jewish support fund or the "Palestine Symphony Orchestra" which was a place for persecuted Jews to join an orchestra. It is now called the "Israel Philharmonic Orchestra."

[QUOTE=Lolkork;49011040]The Zionists had no right to get that location as their nation, it was Arabic[/QUOTE] Where should the Jews have gone, then? Europe wasn't safe and Israel is the only piece of land they had any claim to.

You know Jews existed before Muslims right?

Well Muslims already existed a thousand years ago so that's not necessarily contradictory. Not sure if it is, though, so I don't really know.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49011048]It was Jewish before it was Arabic. Before the 1960s the word "Palestine" or "Palestinian"[/QUOTE] It was mostly Pagan before the events the old testament.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49011543]It was mostly Pagan before the events the old testament.[/QUOTE] You're absolutely right. The one thing that the Jews can claim about that region is that they were the first nation to claim that area as their homeland. All the other people's before them were tribal, fighting amongst each other as much as those on the outside. It was city states. The Jews, on the other hand, created a settled nation with religion, cultural, and familial ties. The only reason they didn't continue with that nation is because of outside powers taking it from them over and over again. [editline]29th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Lolkork;49011273]It wasn't Jewish for over a thousand years afaik (please correct me if im wrong i dont know the complete history of the region), that doesn't make them entiteld to it in my book[/QUOTE] It's tough to say. A Jewish remnant has always been in the Israel area, and it's been the only place on the entire planet that Jews have had the self-determination that they've always wanted. On the other hand, the so called Palestinian Arabs didn't care about self-determination until they were under the Jews.

Oh look, another thread from Lamar about Israel. More on topic, what was all that shit France was going on and on about following that attack several months ago? They're just forgetting that?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49007178]Well, if we're using Genocide Watch's definitions lets take a look at their latest [URL="http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_Report_2012.pdf"]Countries at Risk report[/URL], where Israel and the Palestinians are both listed only under Polarization (Stage 5), which is defined as: So something that may lead to genocide down the line, and is unfortunately true for both sides of the conflict in our case. Israel is of course not listed under any of the actual genocide lists (Stage 6 Preparation/Potential Massacres, Stage 7 Extermination and stage 8 Denial). Interestingly China *is* listed under phase 6, for potential massacres against the Falun Gong and Uighers. Is there any BDS against China?[/QUOTE] The government throws folun gong practicianers in black jails and harvestsvtheir organs for money :smile:

Any sort of legal action against 'hate speech' repulses me to my very core. BDS, whether one disagrees with it or not, should be allowed to practice and operate; so long as it doesn't directly endanger the lives of French citizens, which it, at present, does not.