We want a United States of Europe says top EU official - Polidicks

[QUOTE=deltasquid;43467266]There was a EU constitution draft years ago, but it didn't pass the referenda in all countries. Parts of it survived into the treaty of Lisbon, though.[/QUOTE] The fun thing is that the 2004 one wasn't a 'constitution' meaning the foundation of an entity, but more like a digest of the rules set so far. Still, the name 'constitution' scared voters SO MUCH that iirc 80+% of people voted against it. Years later tho, people were totally ok with the lisbon treaty, which was the same exact thing but with a less-misleading title :v:

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;43467213]I only have two concerns. The first being every other superpower, Russia, America, China, Rome in it's day, have had governments who were either out of touch with their people or actively oppressed them. Not that I think that will happen, I just think caution is important when considering such power and responsibility.[/quote] That's something quite some diminished by (post?) informational era we are in right now. Before, you either needed money and might to be heard, or idea so raw and agreeable that it would rise pitchforks. Today, an asshat with twitter account can prove there's ten thousand people standing behind his particular idea, and everything spreads far easier. Of course, it's still a possibility, but I dare to say that if there was ever a chance for a big yet conscious government, it's right now. [quote] The second thing is that when it eventually does happen I don't want it to be called the United States of Europe. It sounds dumb, just keep the European Union name.[/QUOTE] I would kinda like the sound of European Federation although I guess there's no huge reason to really come up with a new name, it might as well just stay European Union or just swap out a bit to become Unified Europe so through the transition, the distinction between the entities would be clear.

I think its an interesting and potentially fruitful idea, but I think its also way too early to expect this to happen. You need all of the top politicians of every country to surrender many privileges as leaders of their country to a foreigner. That's not going to happen.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;43467384]I would kinda like the sound of European Federation although I guess there's no huge reason to really come up with a new name, it might as well just stay European Union or just swap out a bit to become Unified Europe so through the transition, the distinction between the entities would be clear.[/QUOTE] Keep the original name and save the paint money.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43467268]What you described in the other post were the benefits of free trade an open borders. Do those require grouping up countries into a federation?[/QUOTE] Federalizing the system would basically make it a more centralized sort of Union. Technically the paperwork is still quite demanding in some countries(and some just tend to indirectly block any outside influence), but making it all a single border and a prime governing body directing fundamental decisions of all States/Union Countries could lead to some interesting effects. Oh right, and a more intimate connection between countries could also affect local politics in crap regions of Europe. I don't know what folks in Central and West Europe do all day, but as far as I'm concerned I'd love to see how would you unfuck most issues popping up here.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43467268]What you described in the other post were the benefits of free trade an open borders. Do those require grouping up countries into a federation?[/QUOTE] Not necessarily, but it helps when you have a central bank and single currency for all members of that union.

Yes, significantly stronger federal government is definitely what everyone needs!

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43467441]Not necessarily, but it helps when you have a central bank and single currency for all members of that union.[/QUOTE] But different countries will still have different situations and needs. For example, Spain and its 25% unemployment rate. You can't inflate the Euro supply as a solution (Among other things), because Spain isn't the only country using the Euro.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43467507]But different countries will still have different situations and needs. For example, Spain and its 25% unemployment rate. You can't inflate the Euro supply as a solution (Among other things), because Spain isn't the only country using the Euro.[/QUOTE] Except other solutions to unemployment exist besides inflating the currency. If you integrated the fiscal and monetary policies of the member states, it would be able to assist with these problems much more capably than the individual states do on their own because of the fact it has access to greater resources.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43467507]But different countries will still have different situations and needs. For example, Spain and its 25% unemployment rate. You can't inflate the Euro supply as a solution (Among other things), because Spain isn't the only country using the Euro.[/QUOTE] But as it is right now, it is incredibly difficult to manage anything about the Euro at all because not only are not all the countries in the EU using it, but they may have very different fiscal policies such as tax rates or conflicting banking systems. If you can regulate both, you can try to fix situations like that, given some time.

[QUOTE=Megafan;43466887]For what reason? Why would such a conflict begin? [editline]8th January 2014[/editline] In the modern era, that is.[/QUOTE] Neo-Nationalism is starting to come online through out the majority of Europe, and people probably wouldn't be to thrilled with being united under one flag, and most likely one language.

you just coined neo-nationalism didn't you its just nationalism boyo

I'm pro-EU, but more of its current form than anything like a federal government. It should remain a group of cooperating but independent nations for the time being. There are very large differences to overcome first. We shouldn't be under one government unless the average citizen thinks it'd be natural.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43467643]Neo-Nationalism is starting to come online through out the majority of Europe, and people probably wouldn't be to thrilled with being united under one flag, and most likely one language.[/QUOTE] Having a single state does not imply getting rid of languages or cultures. Multiethnic states can exist, have existed, and continue to exist today quite capably without degenerating into violence. Neo-nationalism is largely restricted to a tiny group of weirdoes who have masturbatory fantasies about the days when their country had loads of clay to compensate for their failed economies and massive social inequalities. Plus given the EU is voluntary, it would be hard for them to get anywhere since the countries that joined it wanted to do so in the first place, and actually vote on these things. If the EU becomes a federal state, it's because Europe wants to be one.

[video=youtube;tnmmnpj_pX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnmmnpj_pX8[/video] Fuck you all who disagree, Michio Kaku just won

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43467737]Having a single state does not imply getting rid of languages or cultures. Multiethnic states can exist, have existed, and continue to exist today quite capably without degenerating into violence. Neo-nationalism is largely restricted to a tiny group of weirdoes who have masturbatory fantasies about the days when their country had loads of clay to compensate for their failed economies and massive social inequalities. Plus given the EU is voluntary, it would be hard for them to get anywhere since the countries that joined it wanted to do so in the first place, and actually vote on these things. If the EU becomes a federal state, it's because Europe wants to be one.[/QUOTE] You join the EU or you join the upcoming EAU. In the current era, you cannot be an independent country, and several cases of this can be found with some companies threatening to stop selling products to countries which attempt to leave the EU. The EU is far from voluntary, its more a matter of economic survival and coercion via corporate backing.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43467886]You join the EU or you join the upcoming EAU. In the current era, you cannot be an independent country, and several cases of this can be found with some companies threatening to stop selling products to countries which attempt to leave the EU. The EU is far from voluntary, its more a matter of economic survival and coercion via corporate backing.[/QUOTE] More like companies have said, "if you pull out of the EU our international business can no longer survive being based in your country since we now need to renegotiate with every single country in the EU so we're moving to another EU country, bye." Which is perfectly legitimate. London couldn't survive as a global financial capital if we left the EU because it is the EU that makes it a competitive place in the first place. Its not coercion lmao

[QUOTE=Aman;43467472]Yes, significantly stronger federal government is definitely what everyone needs![/QUOTE] that sounds like an opinion that a reasonable person might have, but your tone seems mocking. I have no idea how to respond to this

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43467886]You join the EU or you join the upcoming EAU. In the current era, you cannot be an independent country, and several cases of this can be found with some companies threatening to stop selling products to countries which attempt to leave the EU. The EU is far from voluntary, its more a matter of economic survival and coercion via corporate backing.[/QUOTE] Source? As far as I am aware, the EU isn't exactly an incredibly corrupt place.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43467958]Source? As far as I am aware, the EU isn't exactly an incredibly corrupt place.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10434906/Nissan-We-may-quit-Britain-if-it-leaves-EU.html"]Nissan to leave UK if it leaves EU[/URL]. Its not corrupt. I am stating that economics is the prime reason for why people join the EU, and that as time goes on, people will remove themselves from other currencies to either join the EU, or whatever currency the EAU comes out with. This isn't exactly voluntary as it is a matter of economic survival. Now take this back a little bit, and you also come to realize that as time goes on, and more groups join the EU, EAU, and possibly some unified American currency, you can't really exist as a single country with your own currency. You would lose possible trade, and eventually your own currency will fall through with being unable to compete against international currencies.

Tell me Joe, why wouldn't a company move to a more profitable country if the country its currently based decides to make it far more difficult for it to deal with business internationally? Or should I say why is this a problem?

[QUOTE=Gentry;43468023]Tell me Joe, why wouldn't a company move to a more profitable country if the country its currently based decides to make it far more difficult for it to deal with business internationally? Or should I say why is this a problem?[/QUOTE] It's not a problem, I am stating that the notion that people willingly and happily bring themselves together under one banner in the name of a United Europe, United Eurasia, or United North America, is laughable. It's economics. You can't survive with your own currency, when every country around you is using a different currency.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43467983]Now take this back a little bit, and you also come to realize that as time goes on, and more groups join the EU, EAU, and possibly some unified American currency, you can't really exist as a single country with your own currency. You would lose possible trade, and eventually your own currency will fall through with being unable to compete against international currencies.[/QUOTE] So? Economies change over time. If companies move to the EU because it's better there, then that's indicative of problems at home. Reform your own country to resolve these issues.

I can see this as a possibility in the near-future. So long as if when it happens, if it happens, it manages to hold its shit together, it would be fine. Obviously "holding its shit together" would be a hard task, but I'm optimistic that a truly united union would be able to slowly sort out its problems. Extreme nationalism would only become an issue at that point if shit truly hit the fan, which then again is ususally when they do.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43468067]So? Economies change over time. If companies move to the EU because it's better there, then that's indicative of problems at home. Reform your own country to resolve these issues.[/QUOTE] And if you can't resolve your problems, you join the EU so your problems are better managed by someone else. :v:

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43468096]And if you can't resolve your problems, you join the EU so your problems are better managed by someone else. :v:[/QUOTE] I'm failing to see the problem then

[QUOTE=Gentry;43468112]I'm failing to see the problem then[/QUOTE] I was arguing against the point that people do things voluntarily, or that everyone wants a Unified Europe.

I don't see how this helps us get out of a type 0 civilization, which is what we should be working towards.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43468122]I was arguing against the point that people do things voluntarily, or that everyone wants a Unified Europe.[/QUOTE] people do things because they make economic sense you could apply your rationale to any country, except maybe north korea

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43468096]And if you can't resolve your problems, you join the EU so your problems are better managed by someone else. :v:[/QUOTE] Then the EU is a good thing in that case.