Putin Renames Volgograd to Stalingrad For 1 Day, For "one of the greatest examples of world heroism. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;39464264]Hah, one of the greatest examples of world heroism my ass. The only reason people went on to defend Stalingrad was because it was more of a symbol, to defend the name of our glorious leader Stalin from nazi and krautz. If they wouldn't throw their forces in there but instead refortify positions further, they could've saved a million of lives, but instead chose to zerg rush. RIP to all my grandfathers who fought and died in the war, but IMO they overdid it with Stalingrad.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure they defended for their motherland and not directly Stalin.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;39464264]Hah, one of the greatest examples of world heroism my ass. The only reason people went on to defend Stalingrad was because it was more of a symbol, to defend the name of our glorious leader Stalin from nazi and krautz. If they wouldn't throw their forces in there but instead refortify positions further, they could've saved a million of lives, but instead chose to zerg rush. RIP to all my grandfathers who fought and died in the war, but IMO they overdid it with Stalingrad.[/QUOTE] Are you implying the men and women fighting in the streets of Stalingrad were not heroes? I mean for what ever reason they fought I'm not sure, all I know is that they all fought for what they thought was right or what they believed in. They endured fire storms, freezing temperatures, and starvation all in the name of whatever cause they believed in... I think that is pretty heroic in it's own right.

[QUOTE=Sixer;39464680]Sorry about the date of death, should have verified. As for saying "rapid", again I still have to disagree with you. Rapid is a relative term - if you want to look at sheer numbers of people moving into factories in Russia during the time period, of course it's going to be staggering: from the end of serfdom until 1914 isn't a long time to put millions of people into cities. However, one source that contradicts a few others doesn't necessarily make Russian growth around the turn of the century "rapid". It was, if anything, growing at what we might consider fairly natural and healthy economic growth if we're talking 5.1% to 6.65%. Canadian GDP, for example, grew by 2.45% in 2011 during a recession. Rapid, though? China is rapid by comparison. World Bank data (available through Google Data) shows China's ebb in GDP growth over the last 20 years is still higher than the Russian industrial growth rate at it's highest estimate. Russian pre-WWI industrial growth clearly wasn't "rapid" enough.[/QUOTE] It was fairly rapid compared to before the late 19th century. It actually took about 20 years for things to recover to 1913 levels. Plus Stalin fucked up agriculture big time.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;39464166]The Russian public's relationship with Stalin has always been intriguing to me. They should hate him with a passion, but it seems like a lot of people still revere him as a hero for winning the war and turning their nation into a superpower.[/QUOTE] Probably because the whole generation that didn't like him were wiped out

[QUOTE=laserguided;39464723]Pretty sure they defended for their motherland and not directly Stalin.[/QUOTE] For their lives. Many people in the USSR hated living under it, especially the Ukrainians.

[QUOTE=Winters;39464863]Are you implying the men and women fighting in the streets of Stalingrad were not heroes? I mean for what ever reason they fought I'm not sure, all I know is that they all fought for what they thought was right or what they believed in. They endured fire storms, freezing temperatures, and starvation all in the name of whatever cause they believed in... I think that is pretty heroic in it's own right.[/QUOTE] i think stalingrad is more of a tragedy. millions of people were killed or maimed by that battle, all in the name of two bloodthirsty tyrants.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39465008]i think stalingrad is more of a tragedy. millions of people were killed or maimed by that battle, all in the name of two bloodthirsty tyrants.[/QUOTE] so they're not heroes? people died defending their city, their country and whatever they stood for. I think thats heroism.

My grandpa died at Stalingrad in the invading force. Fucking hooray.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39465043]so they're not heroes? people died defending their city, their country and whatever they stood for. I think thats heroism.[/QUOTE] i think a hero is someone who advances a noble cause. whether or not the cause of the soldiers or the armies was noble is very fuzzy and grey. rather than viewing these people as heroes i think they should be viewed as the victims of one of the most bloody wars ever.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39465043]so they're not heroes? people died defending their city, their country and whatever they stood for. I think thats heroism.[/QUOTE] They died because two insane men wanted to rule the world.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39465071]i think a hero is someone who advances a noble cause. whether or not the cause of the soldiers or the armies was noble is very fuzzy and grey. rather than viewing these people as heroes i think they should be viewed as the victims of one of the most bloody wars ever.[/QUOTE] I wonder how the veterans of the war would take to them being called a victim for defending their motherland. [editline]3rd February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;39465096]They died because two insane men wanted to rule the world.[/QUOTE] Not really their fault their city was invaded though. I think defending ones country is heroism.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39465097]I wonder how the veterans of the war would take to them being called a victim for defending their motherland.[/QUOTE] that doesn't change whether they actually are victims or not. [quote]Not really their fault their city was invaded though. I think defending ones country is heroism.[/quote] so you only feel that the red army soldiers were heroes? what about the near million axis soldiers who died at stalingrad? were they not heroes as well?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39465008]i think stalingrad is more of a tragedy. millions of people were killed or maimed by that battle, all in the name of two bloodthirsty tyrants.[/QUOTE] Perhaps hero was the wrong word to describe them, I still think their individual actions could be described as heroic though.

Defending one's country is very honorable. Invading another country is not.

[QUOTE=zombojoe;39466452]Defending one's country is very honorable. Invading another country is not.[/QUOTE] I would only call them heroic for defending their families or friends. I don't think very many people in Stalingrad were genuinely fighting to preserve the USSR.

[QUOTE=zombojoe;39466452]Defending one's country is very honorable. Invading another country is not.[/QUOTE] "The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his" - George S. Patton

[QUOTE=zombojoe;39466452]Defending one's country is very honorable. Invading another country is not.[/QUOTE] the german soldiers didn't choose to invade another country. they were fighting for their own motherland, their own families, their own communities. some of them may have been staunch nazis, some of them may have simply been trying to serve their country and their family. are they not heroes for sacrificing themselves like that?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39466647]the german soldiers didn't choose to invade another country. they were fighting for their own motherland, their own families, their own communities. some of them may have been staunch nazis, some of them may have simply been trying to serve their country and their family. are they not heroes for sacrificing themselves like that?[/QUOTE] Not according to you.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39466647]are they not heroes for sacrificing themselves like that?[/QUOTE] "We shall never end wars, Mrs. Barham, by blaming it on the ministers and generals, or warmongering imperialists, or all the other banal bogeys. It's the rest of us who build statues to those generals and name boulevards after those ministers. The rest of us who make heroes of our dead and shrines of our battlefields. We wear our widow's weeds like nuns, Mrs. Barham, and perpetuate war by exalting its sacrifices."

in the end this was a war, not some romantic epic of battle, glory, and honor. these were children, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins literally sent to their death by a group of maniacs who only cared about their own power. these were people who otherwise might have been best friends shooting at each other, murdering each other. these were people who had to suffer starvation, infection, trauma, death, and you say that somehow one of them is less fucking heroic or worthy of honor because of the color of his god damn uniform? in the end war is suffering, it is not honorable. we remember stalingrad so that we might hope that one day not another person is sent into hell like that again. we remember stalingrad because over the period of a few months millions of people died at the whims of madmen. [editline]4th February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;39466659]Not according to you.[/QUOTE] if you are gonna ascribe heroism or honor to a russian soldier, you might as well ascribe it to a german as well.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39464723]Pretty sure they defended for their motherland and not directly Stalin.[/QUOTE] I've just passed my examination on this subject, go back to your history lessons if you seriously think that it was stragetically-wise correct to waste all resources on defending Stalingrad. [editline]4th February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Winters;39464863]Are you implying the men and women fighting in the streets of Stalingrad were not heroes? I mean for what ever reason they fought I'm not sure, all I know is that they all fought for what they thought was right or what they believed in. They endured fire storms, freezing temperatures, and starvation all in the name of whatever cause they believed in... I think that is pretty heroic in it's own right.[/QUOTE] It all depends on the point of view what heroism is. From my point of view, doing selfless acts like Marshals and Generals did by placing troops at Stalingrad, when it was facing inevitable doom, cannot be called heroism, nor the people who withstood that. Soldiers stationed at Stalingrad may be heroes for enduring and repelling krautz back there, but certainly not for defending Stalingrad in its own right.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;39472043]I've just passed my examination on this subject, go back to your history lessons if you seriously think that it was stragetically-wise correct to waste all resources on defending Stalingrad.[/QUOTE] Strategically it wasn't WISE but it was the best they could have done. The Germans relied on their mechanized and armored divisions to keep pushing the Soviets so they didn't have time to set up a decent defense, It was how they were able to march so far into Russia. However all those tanks become relatively useless in siege/city-fighting because of how easy it is to move around them use the buildings. When the Germans pulled up onto the city the leader of the Soviet forces told his men to move into the city and defend there rather in the front. This move cost civilian lives but their forces weren't destroyed in the open fields. Also geographically speaking Stalingrad is on a river which limits where they can flank around the city. And in a true siege you need to completely cut off the city which thanks to the river made it hard to do. But Really the Germans would have had it if Hitler wasn't so obsessed with storming the city because it had the name of his enemy.

[QUOTE=Proffrink;39464212]One can only assume that most of Russia has no legitimate history books/internet and cannot look up someone who many would consider one of the top 3 scumbag leaders of modern history.[/QUOTE] Russia is the biggest internet user in Europe. Vitctory is still associated with leader, no matter how bad he was.

[QUOTE=Kefirman;39472855]Russia is the biggest internet user in Europe. Vitctory is still associated with leader, no matter how bad he was.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users[/url] [sp]sort by percentage users[/sp] There was no victory for Russia as a whole under Stalin

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39466016]so you only feel that the red army soldiers were heroes? what about the near million axis soldiers who died at stalingrad? were they not heroes as well?[/QUOTE] i don't feel that they were heroes. they were doing as commanded, under the nazi party mind you, and they unknowingly killed thousands of mothers and children to cold and hunger while fighting each other's forces on the fronts. i don't see anything heroic about that.

[QUOTE=Proffrink;39473393][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users[/url] [sp]sort by percentage users[/sp] There was no victory for Russia as a whole under Stalin[/QUOTE] Sort by number of users. He isn't wrong, but is a unfair comparison.

tbh true heroes of war are not necessarily those who got recognized with medals and history books, but those who actually fought, those who actually fought the cold, the hunger, the mad morale, etc, not necessarily even with guns.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;39473450]i don't feel that they were heroes. they were doing as commanded, under the nazi party mind you, and they unknowingly killed thousands of mothers and children to cold and hunger while fighting each other's forces on the fronts. i don't see anything heroic about that.[/QUOTE] but the red army soldiers are heroes even though they did much the same?

[QUOTE=Proffrink;39473393][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users[/url] [sp]sort by percentage users[/sp] [/QUOTE] Your point? There's still more of them in Europe than anyone else.

Are you guys being fucking serious? It's not the number that counts, it's the fraction of the population that has access which does. The point made earlier is irrelevant as it's not the number of people that have the ability to see Russia's history easily, but rather how many out of the total population. Just over half of Russia is without internet - in this day and age, that's fucking abysmal, but it's not my point. My point is that there will be a very high percentage of Russians out there who genuinely know near enough to nothing of the Soviet Russian era and what the people were put through because of one man's ambitions to be an utter bastard.