[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39013425]What more does a person need than to pass a backround check?[/QUOTE]
insurance agreement; i'm also presuming that background checks do include psychological evals, but the enforcement of this is actually spotty sometimes from my understanding
[QUOTE=McGii;39013448]Actually a properly trained psychiatrist can identify those who are at a much higher risk of snapping, which is why I support increased mental health awareness and treatment.[/QUOTE]
it's all fine and dandy to increase these things and to support this more, we definitely have to
but it's not foolproof or highly feasible
[QUOTE=McGii;39013431]I understand that, but the fact remains that a higher level of gun ownership corresponds to more murders [b]and more crime[/b] resulting in a death.[/QUOTE]
Herpty derpty dippity doop.
Even assuming you make that more gun crime, you have been exhaustively refuted on the validity of this point. Once again, you demonstrate your inability to stop blatantly distorting reality.
[QUOTE=McGii;39012546]Maybe if you live alone and don't have children in your house, but a loaded magazine and a rifle that are easy enough to get to "To defend my family" as you put is is not a good thing to have around a [I]child[/I].
Your statistics, while interesting, aren't really relevent
What is relevent is that 60% (9146) of all homicides in America are gun related
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list[/url]
Scroll down on this link:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state[/url]
The vast majority of murders are with firearms by a huge margin
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Other_violent_crime[/url][/QUOTE]
You've apparently never loaded a magazine in your life, so yeah have fun with your empty mags when someone breaks in.
Keeping the magazing and weapon seperate is perfectly fine, the rifle is completely incapable of discharging, and there is no way the kid could accidentally discharge it.
[QUOTE=McGii;39013437]You are saying "these diseases we already treat cause more deaths so we shouldn't stop things that cause less [I]murders[/I]"[/QUOTE]
You are saying "Guns kill 9--- per whatever.". He's saying "Here's the top ten causes of deaths in America."
They completely outshine that.
So, by your logic, should we outlaw and restrict diabetes? Heart disease?
Posting 'not as bad as' fallacy doesn't really even relate to what he's saying.
I'd rather stop something that causes 1,000 deaths than one that causes 100 murders. Even if that scale is off that's essentially this.
[QUOTE=McGii;39013448]Actually a properly trained psychiatrist can identify those who are at a much higher risk of snapping, which is why I support increased mental health awareness and treatment.[/QUOTE]
Thats more of a mental healthcare issue than a gun control one. Of course mentally handicapped or mentally unstable shouldn't get access to firearms, but banning steak because a few people can't eat it isn't a very good policy.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;39013465]You've apparently never loaded a magazine in your life, so yeah have fun with your empty mags when someone breaks in.
Keeping the magazing and weapon seperate is perfectly fine, the rifle is completely incapable of discharging, and there is no way the kid could accidentally discharge it.[/QUOTE]
lmao all you do is berate people with your cute personal attacks; please stop this, because it's degrading
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39012780]why can't I talk? you never refuted shit there, you made the point that we should use circular and grid targets. Guess what, most civilians do. Most marksmen do. So what fucking point did you ever have. also, he had pointed out flaws in your argument long before he laughed at you, you just ignored him the whole fucking time.[/QUOTE]
I use people shaped targets :v:
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;39013442]Because licensing also comes with associated fees, taking more time out of a busy schedule, and creating MORE bureaucracy and paperwork. I personally believe that firearm safety is something you should know before you even think about purchasing a gun, but I don't believe I should have to pay additional fees, re-licensing, and all that shit, on top of ammunition, and gun purchase. The hobby is already prohibitively expensive.[/QUOTE]
Like I said last thread, the paperwork shouldn't be a convoluted mess, being able to sort through confusing paperwork shouldn't be a requirement. I know you don't like me bringing up Australia but you can shoot at a club and buy ammo there as well without a license, you only need one when you want to take it onto private property, which I think is reasonable.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;39013497]I use people shaped targets :v:[/QUOTE]
well we all know you're going to go out and kill people at random now with your legally owned gun
right
[QUOTE=McGii;39013498]Like I said last thread, the paperwork shouldn't be a convoluted mess, being able to sort through confusing paperwork shouldn't be a requirement. I know you don't like me bringing up Australia but you can shoot at a club and buy ammo there as well without a license, you only need one when you want to take it onto private property, which I think is reasonable.[/QUOTE]
But thats the thing, the US's paperwork system is a fucking mess. It would take months to get licensing through the ATF, go look what hoops you have to go through to get a permit for automatics. Having several hundred million Americans all registering for permits all at once would take years to sort through.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39013447]No, you don't get it. Look up the definitions of "correlation" and "causation". Higher firearm amounts does not cause higher homicide rates. If anything, it has to do with population density.[/QUOTE]
So statistics showing that more guns = more homicides and fatal crime, and that reducing gun related crime does not increase the deaths with other weapons even though the over all crime statistics stay constant does not show that reducing guns = reduced deaths, OK
[editline]29th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39013464]Herpty derpty dippity doop.
Even assuming you make that more gun crime, you have been exhaustively refuted on the validity of this point. Once again, you demonstrate your inability to stop blatantly distorting reality.[/QUOTE]
The [B]resulting in a death[/B] is important.
restricting legal guns would affect mostly legal gun owners; if you are going to commit a crime and have intent to do so chances are you're still going to find a way to get your hands on something illegal
it's easy as fuck (at least in my old place of residence, miami) to find illegal shit.
[QUOTE=McGii;39012939]"Fatalities are three times as likely in robberies committed with guns than where other, or no, weapons are used," <-- I have quoted that multiple times by the way
"States in the highest quartile for gun ownership had homicide rates 114% higher than states in the lowest quartile of gun ownership. Non-gun-related homicide rates were not significantly associated with rates of firearm ownership." [This is about the US]
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state[/url]
I also posted this link showing the huge disparity between gun related murders and non gun related murders, this goes with the last line.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Overall robbery and assault rates in the United States are comparable to those in other developed countries, such as Australia and Finland, with much lower levels of gun ownership[/quote]
You forgot this part of your source.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39013517]But thats the thing, the US's paperwork system is a fucking mess. It would take months to get licensing through the ATF, go look what hoops you have to go through to get a permit for automatics. Having several hundred million Americans all registering for permits all at once would take years to sort through.[/QUOTE]
Fix it?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;39013479]I can't afford a psychiatrist every x number of years that a license needs to be renewed. A license turns something from a right to a privilege, which is another reason i don't support it.[/QUOTE]
A part of better mental health support is subsiding the cost, sorry again to bring in Australia but children get free mental health care and adults get 10 free visits a year. I'd like to see that 10 increased but that's a different argument for a different thread.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39013509]well we all know you're going to go out and kill people at random now with your legally owned gun
right[/QUOTE]
Im in the military :v:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39013449]no his point is that the effort needed to get rid of all the guns in america and improve safety in the wa you think is right is infeasible and stupid in comparison to the scale of other problems there are.
that's what he's saying.[/QUOTE]
So hes using the not as bad as argument and comparing diseases to murder. Thanks again HA for a stunning post, and definitely not making reasonable debate with you impossible!
[QUOTE=McGii;39013552]Fix it?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because it's that fucking simple.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;39013541]You forgot this part of your source.[/QUOTE]
So having armed citizenry doesn't reduce crime, but does significantly increase the likelihood of getting killed during a crime? I don't think that really helps our case, now does it?
[QUOTE=McGii;39013568]So hes using the not as bad as argument and comparing diseases to murder. Thanks again HA for a stunning post, and definitely not making reasonable debate with you impossible![/QUOTE]
What the fuck man
What did I say there that made "reasonable debate impossible"? Seriously, I don't think you get what I'm saying at any level, and you just get mad at me with every post.
he's not using that argument at all
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;39013465]You've apparently never loaded a magazine in your life, so yeah have fun with your empty mags when someone breaks in.
Keeping the magazing and weapon seperate is perfectly fine, the rifle is completely incapable of discharging, and there is no way the kid could accidentally discharge it.[/QUOTE]
Actually I started shooting at 15 and only stopped this year because I didn't have time between the stress of school, work, and a social life.
Despite living in one of the worst suburbs in my city where kids sit and snort deodourant in the storm water drain and heckle people walking by for weed/weed money, never once in the decade I've lived here has there been a single break in. The only thing that has come close is one of those kids trying to mug me while both drunk and high, throwing a punch, missing, and ending up on the ground without me even moving or touching him.
[QUOTE=catbarf;39013578]So having armed citizenry doesn't reduce crime, but does significantly increase the likelihood of getting killed during a crime? I don't think that really helps our case, now does it?[/QUOTE]
Armed criminals don't typically get their firearms legally. Reducing firearms in the civilian populous from legal firearms owners will not reduce crime.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;39013541]You forgot this part of your source.[/QUOTE]
Read the fucking thread, the amount of times someone has bought that up and I've said "Yes I'm aware, the reduction in death is the important part" is infuriating.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39013517]But thats the thing, the US's paperwork system is a fucking mess. It would take months to get licensing through the ATF, go look what hoops you have to go through to get a permit for automatics. Having several hundred million Americans all registering for permits all at once would take years to sort through.[/QUOTE]
it already takes months to get licensing through the ATF, if their workload was increased by several hundred thousand orders of magnitude like people are suggesting, they wouldn't get anything done for 60 years
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;39013623]Ever attempt to charge an AR-15 with a brand new buffer spring? That shit is fucking crazy. I'm used to the military springs (which are worn out and fucking nasty), so when I put mine together, I was like "what the fuck why is this difficult" I ask because i'm not entirely familiar if clubs in Australia were exempted from that ban.[/QUOTE]
No, semi automatics are not legal here and I've only ever shot bolt action rifles, all of which have been easy to use.
[QUOTE=McGii;39013629]Read the fucking thread, the amount of times someone has bought that up and I've said "Yes I'm aware, the reduction in death is the important part" is infuriating.[/QUOTE]
Where is the reduction in death when almost all firearms use in crime are obtained illegally.
I still don't understand why "ban all guns" is the preferred solution instead of "fix the problem that causes people to do bad things to other people using guns". Fix the broke-ass mental health care system and improve the shitty welfare system so that it actually helps people get back on their feet instead of sweeping them under the rug and the only major source of gun crime left will be robberies, one-off unpredictable murders, gang fights, and botched drug deals -- all of which are performed at similar rates elsewhere, except with different weapons.
Noone wants to ban all the guns.
[QUOTE=McGii;39014010]Noone wants to ban all the guns.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=McGii;39013519]So statistics showing that more guns = more homicides and fatal crime, and that reducing gun related crime does not increase the deaths with other weapons even though the over all crime statistics stay constant does not show that reducing guns = reduced deaths, OK
[/QUOTE]
so what is the heart of this argument about then
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;39013703]Well, it's fairly difficult, as in it takes a conscious effort. Not like the M4 springs that I'm used to, those things you sneeze at and you've charged your weapon. When I was issued an M4, I'm almost positive i charged it once with a dirty look.[/QUOTE]
The one I used for shooting in Guam took almost no effort at all.
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