Reports of Forced Marriage in UK Rose in 2016, Data Shows - Polidicks

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938077]I don't buy it. The peoples of North America, for example, had incredible environmental factors and failed to develop in the same way.[/QUOTE] You also must consider wider factors such as good indigenous work animals which NA had zero of compared to Europe having plenty. Look at how SA has alpacas for example. This is essentially free technology to do labor that NA didn't ever have access to.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938144]You also must consider wider factors such as good indigenous work animals which NA had zero of compared to Europe having plenty. Look at how SA has alpacas for example. This is essentially free technology to do labor that NA didn't ever have access to.[/QUOTE] Then take SA. They went further than NA, sure, but they got nowhere close to the western world. Even take China. They have a longer history of strong central government than any other place in the world, yet, again, they didn't develop the same ideals. Also look at the other side, though. Nations that embrace western culture all of a sudden do much better than those around them, like South Korea, even though they are similar in every other way.

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938096]The ideas of freedom being important...[/QUOTE] Thats from your own perspective of success, yet your treating it as the self evident definition of success. And this culture still isn't the primary driver of your definition of success because each example you jusy named propogated for reasons far more diverse than their belief systems and traditions alone. And the former aren't components emblemic and practiced only by western society.

[QUOTE=Aircraft;51938154]Thats from your own perspective of success, yet your treating it as the self evident definition of success. And this culture still isn't the primary driver of your definition of success because each example you jusy named propogated for reasons far more diverse than their belief systems and traditions alone. And the former aren't components emblemic and practiced only by western society.[/QUOTE] I would call these cultural ideals necessary, but not sufficient, causes.

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938146]Then take SA. They went further than NA, sure, but they got nowhere close to the western world. Even take China. They have a longer history of strong central government than any other place in the world, yet, again, they didn't develop the same ideals. Also look at the other side, though. Nations that embrace western culture all of a sudden do much better than those around them, like South Korea, even though they are similar in every other way.[/QUOTE] SA only had lamas and alpacas which were limited to small geographic regions. Most of the advanced CA and SA civilizations had to do the labor themselves. South Korea does well due to its economic alignment with western nations, not because of shared ideals magically advancing them further. China has always been extremely advanced.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938186]SA only had lamas and alpacas which were limited to small geographic regions. Most of the advanced CA and SA civilizations had to do the labor themselves. South Korea does well due to its economic alignment with western nations, not because of shared ideals magically advancing them further. China has always been extremely advanced.[/QUOTE] I'm not just talking about economic or scientific advancement, but also of social and equity advancement.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938186]SA only had lamas and alpacas which were limited to small geographic regions. Most of the advanced CA and SA civilizations had to do the labor themselves. South Korea does well due to its economic alignment with western nations, not because of shared ideals magically advancing them further. China has always been extremely advanced.[/QUOTE] Yeah but Europe had white people. Checkmate sheeple

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938161]I would call these cultural ideals necessary, but not sufficient, causes.[/QUOTE] my english isn't good, what do you mean they are necessary, not sufficient?

[QUOTE=Aircraft;51938221]my english isn't good, what do you mean they are necessary, not sufficient?[/QUOTE] It is necessary to have those ideals, but having those ideals isn't enough on their own, to create the outcome that we see. I don't deny that other things have played into it.

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938204]I'm not just talking about economic or scientific advancement, but also of social and equity advancement.[/QUOTE] The former are quantitative and the latter are qualitative/relative and hardly applicable in a debate over civilizations having the edge over one another. Mix them up and it makes a weak argument. If you want to specifically argue that ideals play a strong role or even the most important role in the development of a civilization then you're gonna need to provide a metric to that effect, and not one that's based off something like South Korea: a nation less than a hundred years old which quickly grew from aligning itself economically with western nations.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938260]The former are quantitative and the latter are qualitative/relative and hardly applicable in a debate over civilizations having the edge over one another. Mix them up and it makes a weak argument. If you want to specifically argue that ideals play a strong role or even the most important role in the development of a civilization then you're gonna need to provide a metric to that effect, and not one that's based off something like South Korea: a nation less than a hundred years old which quickly grew from aligning itself economically with western nations.[/QUOTE] It really seems that modern day scientism has gotten in the way of actual thinking. Do I really need a scientific metric to establish that South Korea is socially better off than China? Which would you rather live in? Which would any clear thinking person rather live in? The answer is obviously South Korea. Did they get their social progress from their location? No, that doesn't seem to be the case based on the large number of countries in a similar position that haven't done the same. Did they get their social progress from their wealth? No, it doesn't seem so based on the fact that many nations are extremely wealthy and haven't done the same (Saudi Arabia, for example). What one big thing is different about South Korea? The fact that they've embraced the west. Just like every other country that has embraced western ideals, like a freely elected government, have been successful in relation their neighbors.

Therein lies my point. That's a totally different argument from what you were previously saying. Alignment with the west brings prosperity because the west was already prosperous, regardless of western ideals. The west grew its strength not from vague ideological superiority but because of its abundance of resources.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938351]Therein lies my point. That's a totally different argument from what you were previously saying. Alignment with the west brings prosperity because the west was already prosperous, regardless of western ideals. The west grew its strength not from vague ideological superiority but because of its abundance of resources.[/QUOTE] Is Saudi Arabia not also economically aligned with the west and absolutely full of relevant resources (oil and natural gas)? I'm speaking about a cultural alignment, something that's very different than an economic alignment. Israel is another example of cultural alignment that makes it a cultural standout among its neighbors.

[QUOTE=sgman91;51938374]Is Saudi Arabia not also economically aligned with the west and absolutely full of relevant resources (oil and natural gas)?[/QUOTE] That's entirely different. They're hardly aligned. More profiting exploitatively over a couple important resources. [QUOTE=sgman91;51938374]I'm speaking about a cultural alignment, something that's very different than an economic alignment. Israel is another example of cultural alignment that makes it a cultural standout among its neighbors. [/QUOTE] Ok but that's not the same as what you were saying previously.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51938450]That's entirely different. They're hardly aligned. More profiting exploitatively over a couple important resources.[/QUOTE] How are you differentiating between economic alignment and profiting exploitatively? Saudi Arabia could become a wonderful nation almost instantly if it adopted and embraced western culture. It has the wealth. [QUOTE]Ok but that's not the same as what you were saying previously.[/QUOTE] How is it not the same thing? My focus has been on culture the entire time.