Labour have an 8 point lead over the Conservatives for first time under Corbyn
39 replies, posted
[QUOTE=The mouse;52443835]It takes some mental gymnastics to argue that the Conservatives are the ones which openly support the Muslim far right.[/QUOTE]
ah good, [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1570235"]May shouldn't have a problem publishing that report on Saudi-funded UK extremists then[/URL]
[QUOTE=Cone;52443892]ah good, [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1570235"]May shouldn't have a problem publishing that report on Saudi-funded UK extremists then[/URL][/QUOTE]
The Saudis bribe, right sorry, give [b] gifts [/b] to tory MPs. They won't do shit.
[QUOTE=The mouse;52443699]
I would also dispute the claim that young people voted Labour because of their policies were more popular. In 2015 the Conservative manifesto attracted far more young voters to the Conservative party than the most recent one despite it's more wholehearted embracement of Austerity. The real reason so many young people voted for Labour is because of their extremely ambiguous position on Brexit. Since an overwhelming number of young voters supported remain, they naturally leaned toward Labour who's unenthusiastic support of Brexit meant that many of their voters believed that they would not actually go through with it. In 2022 Brexit will no longer be an issue, and therefore these pro-remain young people will no longer naturally gravitate toward the Labour party.[/QUOTE]
Right, let me get this straight.
Young people voted for the Labour party that was offering them (among other things) higher wages, accessible university, and an end to exploitative contracts that disproportionately effect young people...
over the party that wanted to freeze wages, take away school meals, take control of the internet, enforce a "dementia tax" on their grandparents and make young people ineligible for housing benefit (among other things)...
....Not because their policies were more attractive- but because they were more ambiguous about Brexit than the "Brexit means Brexit" party?.
And after the Tories make a complete mess of brexit (a farce that was their doing from the beginning), these pro-remain voters are going to be more sympathetic to them?
I'm sorry mate but the only way I can think to describe this is "Complete bollocks".
In my mind the Conservatives are there to stay, however there's 3 or 4 (probably more) ways that they'll continue to either lose their grip on power or have to get a good deal or appear weaker in the process. The DUP will probably at some point stop co-operating but that's unlikely, the date at which we formally leave the EU will make the UK weaker in general (worse if there's no deal at all), SNP are simply waiting a while until they decide upon another Scottish referendum and then there's pretty much a chance that the UK could go into a recession again given the cycle of them being a re-occuring event every so often - which wouldn't surprise me much given that if you can't get benefits & still need money to survive it's not uncommon to take on debt to pay for things which puts a lot of stress on banks unable to get these debts repaid.
Good job!!! Labour Party.
Ayyy lmao
How I wish to see an UK under Corbyn rule. I would really like to know how a social democrat gov would play out in an economy like that of the UK.
[QUOTE=The mouse;52443699]Whilst I'm not convinced that the current government are going to be at all effective in negotiating Brexit, I am convinced that any government would have made a shambles of it. [B]One of the reasons I personally voted to leave was because I had no confidence in the present or any future British governments to negotiate with the EU.[/B][/quote]
Uh... what? You don't believe our government can negotiate with the EU, from it's already well-negotiated position of power within the EU, and so you voted to have them negotiate a deal better than that, without any position? Let me guess, you're one of those dreamers who thinks that 'no deal is better than a bad deal', the slogan the tories have coined in preparation for their blistering failure as negotiators.
[quote]I also agree that the deal with the DUP was an absolute farce that shouldn't have happened, but it's massively disingenuous to imply that Labour wouldn't have sought to make similar deals if they were in the same position. It's also disingenuous to criticise the Conservatives for teaming up the DUP despite the latter's views, when Labour is quite happy to ignore the Muslim Religious Right and their own member's antisemitism. The former of whom make up much of their inner city vote and whose reactionary view's would make the DUP recoil. For example [URL="http://www.libdems.org.uk/lib_dems_call_on_labour_to_condemn_misinformation_in_stoke_by_election"]Muslim voters warned they will go to hell if they do not vote Labour in Stoke by-election[/URL] or the[URL="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/julie-burchill-labour-party-jew-7877106"] Party's problem's with antisemitism [/URL] Ultimately I think that by 2022, the deal with the DUP will play to the Tories' favour as they will be able to argue that the way to avoid having to make such deals in the future will be to vote for them as already the largest party.[/quote]
Hahahahaha, "hey guys we made this dogshit deal with these horrible bastards from Ireland to hold onto power, using £1 billion in funds we claimed didn't exist while we cut everyone's public services, and we 'had' to do this because we fielded the worst PM candidate in recent history with a horrendous manifesto, causing us to lose our considerable pre-election edge - VOTE FOR US SO THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"
You know you're right, now that I think about it this DUP deal is gonna be gold for the tories come next election.
[quote]The thing about raising public services as an election issue is that it isn't really going to change anyone's mind. For example if someone voted Conservative in both 2015 and 2017 despite what had happened to public services between 2010-2017, I doubt that public services is an issue for them. Whilst you might be right that it's not making them any friends, reversing their cuts aren't going to win them any more votes and would probably in fact cost them votes with the people who want to cut the deficit.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, no. People are sick of austerity. I know plenty of NHS workers, police and other people who work in the public sector who DO actually care that their budgets and wages have been cut (or capped and stagnated). Everybody who is actually involved in these jobs knows that things are at a breaking point and it's only a matter of time before more lives are put in danger due to threadbare resources and a mass exodus of experienced staff due to the cuts. As usual your only point of reference is what the average conservative voter thinks, and that if they weren't concerned about public services before, they won't be now. Perhaps you're right, but for everybody's sake I hope that the future of our mutual well-being isn't left up to Johnny Tory and how swell he thinks austerity is.
I think one of my biggest problems with these arguments is that they are a bit like how the Tories govern. In that they aren't really about whether the Tories are in the right, but more that it doesn't matter how wrong they are if people can be distracted from the fact or nobody cares to begin with.
[QUOTE=fulgrim;52444067]Right, let me get this straight.
Young people voted for the Labour party that was offering them (among other things) higher wages, accessible university, and an end to exploitative contracts that disproportionately effect young people...
over the party that wanted to freeze wages, take away school meals, take control of the internet, enforce a "dementia tax" on their grandparents and make young people ineligible for housing benefit (among other things)...
....Not because their policies were more attractive- but because they were more ambiguous about Brexit than the "Brexit means Brexit" party?.
And after the Tories make a complete mess of brexit (a farce that was their doing from the beginning), these pro-remain voters are going to be more sympathetic to them?
I'm sorry mate but the only way I can think to describe this is "Complete bollocks".[/QUOTE]
Except that isn't borne out by the results. Almost all of the constituencies which flipped to Labour (or indeed the Lib Dems) on exceptional swings during the election were remain voting areas with large young populations. All the other areas only yielded moderate or non-existent swings. For example seats like Battersea and Canterbury had much larger swings than places like Nuneaton or Basildon and Billericay.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;52449799]Uh... what? You don't believe our government can negotiate with the EU, from it's already well-negotiated position of power within the EU, and so you voted to have them negotiate a deal better than that, without any position? Let me guess, you're one of those dreamers who thinks that 'no deal is better than a bad deal', the slogan the tories have coined in preparation for their blistering failure as negotiators.
[/QUOTE]
That isn't the point. The point is that right up until now, successive British governments were ardent europhiles who would have happily given away more powers to Brussels, whilst maintaining a eurosceptic posture to please their electorate. Britain could have easily scuppered every attempt at closer union if the government actually wanted to, but they still signed up to every treaty from the Single European Act to the Lisbon Treaty.
Therefore when I say that I don't have confidence in any British government to negotiate with the EU, I mean it the sense that I believe that successive British governments have been more concerned with making the the will of Brussels more acceptable to the British public than actually opposing it.
As far as I'm concerned no Brexit deal would not mean the end of the world. Trade with the EU wouldn't cease immediately, corporate pressure within the EU will mean that even if tariffs are introduced they will be exceedingly low. Although personally, I'm sure if previous British government negotiations with the EU are anything to go by, the Government will get a bad deal and sell it as a good deal anyway. The whole "No deal is better than a Bad Deal" is just a way of appearing tough to the electorate.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;52449799] Hahahahaha, "hey guys we made this dogshit deal with these horrible bastards from Ireland to hold onto power, using £1 billion in funds we claimed didn't exist while we cut everyone's public services, and we 'had' to do this because we fielded the worst PM candidate in recent history with a horrendous manifesto, causing us to lose our considerable pre-election edge - VOTE FOR US SO THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"
You know you're right, now that I think about it this DUP deal is gonna be gold for the tories come next election.
[/QUOTE]
I don't even know why people are getting stuck up on the social conservatism of the DUP anyway? Their views have literally no bearing on government policy and the British government isn't allowing them to implement any of their more repugnant views. If anything by making a deal with the Conservatives, a party which supports Gay Marriage and Abortion the DUP are compromising their views.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;52449799] Yeah, no. People are sick of austerity. I know plenty of NHS workers, police and other people who work in the public sector who DO actually care that their budgets and wages have been cut (or capped and stagnated). Everybody who is actually involved in these jobs knows that things are at a breaking point and it's only a matter of time before more lives are put in danger due to threadbare resources and a mass exodus of experienced staff due to the cuts. As usual your only point of reference is what the average conservative voter thinks, and that if they weren't concerned about public services before, they won't be now. Perhaps you're right, but for everybody's sake I hope that the future of our mutual well-being isn't left up to Johnny Tory and how swell he thinks austerity is.[/QUOTE]
The problem with public services don't come from spending cuts, in fact the government is spending more public money now than in it's entire history. The problem with public services are that they are horrendously wasteful and inefficient meaning that the amount of money needed to run them will always snowball, making long term spending plans almost impossible.
Say the NHS wants to implement a new scheme. The amount of bureaucracy required to plan, trial and implement it alone means that huge amounts of money earmarked for Healthcare, never actually goes toward the NHS. Meanwhile the government pays out huge amounts of money in pensions for life to everyone involved. So even if the Government ended up making huge spending increases on public services, there's a good chance it wouldn't actually improve services.
This is also the first time Labour has ever polled over 45% with YouGov.
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