Reuters: 1 in 4 Americans support secession of their state from the US - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ben1066;46029877]Scotland being independent would of affected the remainder of the United Kingsom also, however the right for self determination was respected.[/QUOTE] Which was a major complaint was that they were basically taking a unilateral decision that would affect the rest of the UK. And they could have very well rejected the entire thing, that was within their power. They just stated they otherwise wouldn't. They decided to relinquish that ability.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029838]New England surprises me given that the Free State Project is set in NH. Also, I believe the right of self determination is a human right regardless of legality and it's stupid that it's "illegal" to secede from the US. There should at least be mechanisms in place for referendums if it ever reached that point. RIP 10th Amendment[/QUOTE] I'm more a believer in the idea of social contract myself, simply because unnecessary secession is just that: unnecessary. Scotland desired freedoms in exchange for any sort of prosperity as a nation, and it failed because really governments exist to better our lives and keep them that way. States are very significant bodies when you're talking about the financial and political impact of a unilateral secession from the union. If for example California were to secede from the union by some hypothetical referendum, it would impact the entire country severely in more than one way. Thus it's a matter best left to the decision of all people it affects.

The only way I see any state secede from the US is if some dictator takes over your country.

[QUOTE=Black;46029912]The only way I see any state secede from the US is if some dictator takes over your country.[/QUOTE] You mean like Obummer, right?

[QUOTE=Black;46029912]The only way I see any state secede from the US is if some dictator takes over your country.[/QUOTE] At that point it would probably be more effective to simply exercise the right to revolution whether non violent or forceful

[QUOTE=Milkdairy;46029899]I'm more a believer in the idea of social contract myself, simply because unnecessary secession is just that: unnecessary. Scotland desired freedoms in exchange for any sort of prosperity as a nation, and it failed because really governments exist to better our lives and keep them that way. States are very significant bodies when you're talking about the financial and political impact of a unilateral secession from the union. If for example California were to secede from the union by some hypothetical referendum, it would impact the entire country severely in more than one way. Thus it's a matter best left to the decision of all people it affects.[/QUOTE] And this leads to a tyranny of the majority. The rights of the few shouldn't be ignored because the majority don't like it.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029954]And this leads to a tyranny of the majority. The rights of the few shouldn't be ignored because the majority don't like it.[/QUOTE] If a fraction of suffering can't be helped in order to do what's best for the very vast majority, then the policies in question should go through. Achieving utopian conditions requires careful planning and very specific circumstances often which are not even present (nor will they probably ever be) But that's just my two cents. It's better to have to something good for the 95% than something bad for everyone. I may be over-simplifying things here but that's how I see it given realistic limits to what can actually be done when it comes to appeasing everyone. The end doesn't always justify the means but if certain things must be sacrificed for a (legitimate) greater good, then so be it.

All I want is from New Jersey to secede from New York City.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029954]And this leads to a tyranny of the majority. The rights of the few shouldn't be ignored because the majority don't like it.[/QUOTE]And the whims of a few should not trample the rights of a majority either. The conflict over respect for the majority and minority is a two way street. It is impossible to garuntee everyones wishes will be respected. Physically impossible. So someone will lose.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46029986]And the whims of a few should not trample the rights of a majority either. The conflict over respect for the majority and minority is a two way street. It is impossible to garuntee everyones wishes will be respected. Physically impossible. So someone will lose.[/QUOTE] It's all about that magical buzzword "circumstances" that I keep talking about. The difference between a USA and a failed state can be even just the location of the revolution, the political history of the nation, et cetera. Some of these circumstances can't be changed and people of the present have to play the cards they've been dealt. Thus in most cases not everyone's wishes can be fulfilled when it comes to the development of a healthy nation. Certain sacrifices have to be made in order to create something better. [editline]20th September 2014[/editline] yknow what though I'm just glad we're having a healthy debate about this. The whole thread's been pretty mellow and civil right from the get-go and this whole argument's gone way better than most that occur on FP so that's a plus. New Jersey should defect to California ;)

At least 25% of Americans are fucking retarded, everybody knows that. Polls consistently show around 25% support for the dumbest things.

Could Illinois secede and be labeled a dictatorship so America can invade and replace our government?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;46030551]Could Illinois secede and be labeled a dictatorship so America can invade and replace our government?[/QUOTE] It's too far gone at this point.

I don't think Texas should secede but it's always fun to think and joke about. I think Texas would be the only state that wouldn't immediately collapse after assuming we didn't get in a war with the US (which we totally would)

[QUOTE=Milkdairy;46029964]If a fraction of suffering can't be helped in order to do what's best for the very vast majority, then the policies in question should go through. Achieving utopian conditions requires careful planning and very specific circumstances often which are not even present (nor will they probably ever be) But that's just my two cents. It's better to have to something good for the 95% than something bad for everyone. I may be over-simplifying things here but that's how I see it given realistic limits to what can actually be done when it comes to appeasing everyone. The end doesn't always justify the means but if certain things must be sacrificed for a (legitimate) greater good, then so be it.[/QUOTE] Interesting viewpoint, I think that belongs to 19th century America with the trail of tears and Manifest Destiny.

I see people here in Texas that have Secede bumper stickers and the like daily. The idea has a pretty big presence here.

[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;46029508]There are a few people on facepunch who actually believe Cascadia (secession of BC/Washington/Oregon) will be a thing. Which it won't. Ever.[/QUOTE] hey man, it would, like, be really cool and stuff

as a state, fuck no. but i would be totally okay with new england as a region becoming independent statistically speaking our exports as well as our quality of life is probably good enough to sustain us. but of course it would never happen, it's just fun to think about. breaking free of the USA would probably make progress in terms of education and science happen a LOT faster without a lot of the corruption the US Government has

[QUOTE=Duck M.;46031509]I see people here in Texas that have Secede bumper stickers and the like daily. The idea has a pretty big presence here.[/QUOTE] When I lived in Texas that idea was largely a tongue-in-cheek Texas pride type deal. While I believe there's a few who truly crave an independent Texas, most people I knew were simply proud to be Texan and playfully supported the idea of independence.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;46029331]Independent USA's existence is illegal if you want to go that way.[/QUOTE] Not according to the treaty of Paris in which Britain formally recognised our independence and sovernty [editline]20th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=FFStudios;46031534] would probably make progress in terms of education and science happen a LOT faster without a lot of the corruption the US Government has[/QUOTE] You do realise education and education problems are state matters, the fed minimally has any control over it, they have standards states have to meet but if a state wants to make their education more than the federal standards they are free to do so

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46029986]And the whims of a few should not trample the rights of a majority either. The conflict over respect for the majority and minority is a two way street. It is impossible to garuntee everyones wishes will be respected. Physically impossible. So someone will lose.[/QUOTE] Just because there may be minor economic backlash from a territory seceding should not be a reason to hold back a nation from self determination. That's like saying I'm not allowed to quit my job because my company will lose money from my absence.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029975]All I want is from New Jersey to secede from New York City.[/QUOTE] Pfft, why not kick out New York instead and conquer/join New England? We've got plenty of guido "locals" to throw at them as cannon fodder.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029954]And this leads to a tyranny of the majority. The rights of the few shouldn't be ignored because the majority don't like it.[/QUOTE] But Cascadia could never be a thing, you realize that right? Largely because of British Columbia, who actually likes being in Canada, and Canadians would fight tooth and nail for BC to stay for a million different reasons, seeing as it's probably the most beautiful province.

The US sucks so much, the US wants to leave the US.

[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;46029932]You mean like Obummer, right?[/QUOTE] I mean more like a dictator taking over your country.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46031986]Just because there may be minor economic backlash from a territory seceding should not be a reason to hold back a nation from self determination. That's like saying I'm not allowed to quit my job because my company will lose money from my absence.[/QUOTE] It would be more comparable to an entire corporate subdivision leaving a company on its own will. Really though analogies like these don't really serve any purpose unless they're accurately constructed enough to actually represent what you're trying to compare them to. Either way I guess the right to self determination is a naturally governed right because no one in their right mind would vote to secede from their parent country if it will completely ruin the way they live and just be terrible for everyone involved anyways. Vocal minorities like this have no significant reason or influence to compel a secession to happen. Now creating change is different from a complete secession from the United States but I won't really get into that. [editline]20th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Black;46034934]I mean more like a dictator taking over your country.[/QUOTE] This sort of pertains to what I'm talking about. People can't just grasp at straws and make up dumb, half-truth reasons to secede. Some people might see Obama as a dictator and therefore he should be impeached and Texas should secede from the union because he's imposing his tyranny on it but he's neither a dictator nor a tyrant and his negative actions are being heavily blown out of proportion. [editline]20th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=outlawpickle;46031460]Interesting viewpoint, I think that belongs to 19th century America with the trail of tears and Manifest Destiny.[/QUOTE] What other option is there? I don't see a middle ground in these types of situations. Someone will always lose, either a minority or a majority.

[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;46033449]But Cascadia could never be a thing, you realize that right? Largely because of British Columbia, who actually likes being in Canada, and Canadians would fight tooth and nail for BC to stay for a million different reasons, seeing as it's probably the most beautiful province.[/QUOTE] look if you just let us join canada then 80% of the cascadia supporters will be happy [editline]20th September 2014[/editline] please take us we aren't like the rest

West Virginia here, we were doing it before it was cool

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46029975]All I want is from New Jersey to secede from New York City.[/QUOTE] You live in south jersey quit talking shit. I for one enjoy NYC being a day trip.

Great Lakes megastate with Chicago as its capitol.